Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[Evidencebased]

snip

Okay, thats a good place to start: The patriarchy does not exist. When feminists shout about a patriarchy, they are shouting about an imaginary boogy man, they've invented, as so to have somethng monstorous to fight.

But there is also all the other nonsense, only men rape, men are the instigators of domestic violence, rape shieled laws exist to protect women from there rapists, gray rape is rape, wage gap exists due to institutionalized sexism, a women can do anything a man can do.

So in order
- Only men rape: Women rape too, its less common, but it doesn't make it less wrong, yet you don't see men making extremely sexist "only women can stop rape" commercials

*snip*

Sorry I had to stop there. I'm just speechless. Have you read what you just wrote there? Does that truly seem like a reasonable and coherent argument to you? I don't know, maybe we could open a window in here and clear out the solvent fumes first... anyone?

Stiffkittin, you are a breath of fresh air. I honestly can't tell if I'm just beating my head against a wall sometimes, with these guys, or if I'm being trolled. They act like it's so reasonable that they don't know basic things like what the "patriarchy" is... but they feel perfectly comfortable saying it doesn't exist! And then they start just plain lying about all sorts of strawfeminists. Le sigh.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

@matthew_lane

Well if you want examples here is an example from the Internatinal Men's day wiki page that I read before

'Speaking on behalf of UNESCO, Director of Women and Culture of Peace Ingeborg Breines said of IMD, ?This is an excellent idea and would give some gender balance.? She added that UNESCO was looking forward to cooperating with the organizers'

So there is an example of a woman who I assume is a feminist from her job description supporting the promotion of a men's day which looks at 'focusing on men's and boy's health, improving gender relations, promoting gender equality, and highlighting positive male role models.'

The problem is, women like this are as representative of the feminist movement as are the feminazis. For every woman who fights for men's rights you post I can post 2 "all heretosexual sex is rape" quotes. The feminist movement has fought almost exclusively for women's rights.

Nobody is stopping masculinists? Why should feminists promote men's rights aswell its not really thier job is it? They are there to make the women's rights equal to men. That sounds kind of harsh really but they aren't trying to stop equality for men?

I think what you guys want is feminists to be what equalists?

So in your view campaigns against animal cruelty are wrong because they don't take care of the issue of domestic abuse?

Equality is what TRUE feminists want.

Don't claim to be fighting for equality when you are only interested in women's rights.

It doesn't matter what side you approach equality from you still get equality otherwise it wouldn't be equality would it. Feminism is the cause for female equality with men. So, that mean that they want to promote women's right to a level which is equal to men and no more. You still get equality in the end...

thats logic.

 

[Feylynn]

I consider gender a non factor in games, I see no variance in equality whatsoever, the fight is entirely a cloud existent force perpetuated by a network of personal perceptions.

Beyond that though, what is perceived as sexism is numbers.
If a hypothetical ad campaign sees that 80% of its customers are male, there is no myth here, no sexism, there is fact that more gamers are male.
There is, to be a fair a lack of effort to accommodate female gamers but it's unfair to ask them to use there money in a fashion they deem non-optimal.

I don't see what is wrong about saying that 40$ is less then it costs to support a human being, it's the truth.
It's not very sensitive they singled out females in general, but really, they apparently correctly calculated male gamers would find it a harmless and cheap little joke worth a laugh and maybe a considered purchase.

On the larger scale there is a definite stigma that the developers need to grow out of if they want to expand there audience but based on the 'casual' market I'd say it's well underway.

The variety of feminism I am against is the hostile need to 'destroy' male content, rather then create female content. It's not a universal occurrence, or even necessarily a common one.
But I've read things that lead me to believe the people exist, and are very mislead about what equality means.

 

[CyberWasp35]

Because sadly, we are the vast minority when it comes to video games (at least games that aren't the Sims or casual games). When it comes to advertising, the industry is still conventionally geared towards young adult men, even though female gamers like myself enjoy the exact same games with the same amount of gore and violence as they do.

Unfortunately.

On a side note, I don't understand the whole mentality that girls shouldn't like violent video games... all my guy friends LOVE the fact that I can game with them, and even though a lot of girls think I'm a nerd, others think it's cool that I'm into them. If I was a guy I'd totally want a girl that shared in my hobbies...

I agree with you. I never really thought much about why until I say one of the "F.A.G" videos from Halo 3. poor girl was constantly sexually harassed by a egotistic nut case who was also live streaming the video to the internets. she was quickly smashed with ungodly amounts of messages and was forced to change her gamertag.

now, my girfriend is a gamer too! I just don't see why other guys would find it necessary to harass and verbally assault every one they encounter. heh, especially if that girl just kicked their cans in a game...

but, a theory, is that maybe alot of guys see games as their triumph of manliness... and seeing a girl stepping up onto the same podium is like a sudden invasion of their 'kingdome' or something... or maybe they just have no respect for anyone but themselves... or I'll even go as far to say that they have a dominant sexist mentality that believes that women are meant only to serve them, and are utterly inferior and don't belong in the same groups as them.

I, however, strongly disagree with that. I say to any girl gamers out there: go on! play games! don't let any self-esteem challenged steroid jock get you down. so what if you're a girl? so what if you love games? it doesn't matter! nobody should have a say in what you can or cannot do. don't let steriotypes drag you under, and just tell those ignorant sexists to go F*@% themselves. ^^ \m/

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

It doesn't matter what side you approach equality from you still get equality otherwise it wouldn't be equality would it. Feminism is the cause for female equality with men. So, that mean that they want to promote women's right to a level which is equal to men and no more. You still get equality in the end...

thats logic.

No, thats faulty logic. If you are fighting sexism with counter sexism, eventually one side claims victory & we just get a new breed of sexism. You cannot get to equality from a combative, insular, sexist POV, it just doesn't work. Its not like war, where one side wins & then everyone goes home. Its more like the American influence in the middle east... You just keep on fighting till eventually there is nothing left to be the victor over & at that point no body can be considered the winner. Theres just a whole heap of bitter and dead relationships.

Feminism isn't about fighting sexism with counter sexism. It's about combating chaivenism with demands for equality not sexism. You seem to think that feminist are out to dominate men or become superior, that's not feminism, that's sexism. It's not a war its a demand for equality.

Edit : I'm kind of sleepy now :< So I'm gonna have a break sorry.

 

[PrinceArutha]

I think the biggest issue men have when it comes to accepting feminism as equality and not as "anti-male" is the attitude of some of the more outspoken and aggressive "man-haters" who call themselves feminist as a disguise to hide their hatred behind the shield of an unrelated but similar cause.
for example, when I go to my girlfriends university I see her to her class room and go study on the grass next to the building. Or, at least, I used to before a group of "feminists" set up shop a few feet from where I normally set up. At first I was fine with it, I agree with equality and don't see myself as better than anyone else, I see everyone as equal within my attitude to them.

however, it took all of 5 minutes before they started to use me and point to me as an example and yell into the megaphone about how I "probably beats and rapes his girlfriend" "needs to be locked up controlled" and "men like him would not be allowed in a feminist controlled world"
needless to say I was hurt and upset by this unprovoked verbal attack, so I packed my things and left.

I didn't hate feminism after this, I completely agree with the true feminist ideals of equality for all. however I am now timid and try to avoid groups of feminists, even the nice honest "we just want equality ones" that me and my girlfriend used to meet with socially outside of uni.

I can understand why other men might get defensive if they had an experience similar to mine. but true feminism has its merits and their is nothing to fear from equality, only advancement and communal growth.

i think the best example of non-aggressive, true feminism is in this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIjiqeUx4fk

 

[Evidencebased]

It doesn't matter what side you approach equality from you still get equality otherwise it wouldn't be equality would it. Feminism is the cause for female equality with men. So, that mean that they want to promote women's right to a level which is equal to men and no more. You still get equality in the end...

thats logic.

No, thats faulty logic. If you are fighting sexism with counter sexism, eventually one side claims victory & we just get a new breed of sexism. You cannot get to equality from a combative, insular, sexist POV, it just doesn't work. Its not like war, where one side wins & then everyone goes home. Its more like the American influence in the middle east... You just keep on fighting till eventually there is nothing left to be the victor over & at that point no body can be considered the winner. Theres just a whole heap of bitter and dead relationships.

Her logic is perfect; you insist on redefining very basic terms until you can call it "faulty." Of course fighting sexism with sexism doesn't work, which is why she said "equality" (as have many of us here.) When you strive towards equality the situation gets more and more equal, yeah? That's a simple concept. A level playing field is inescapably level for everyone on it and it's impossible to set up a truly equal society where one group is advantaged over another, by definition.

The combative, insular, sexist side is the one that fears change and disdains women's rights. It's the side that has, for millennia, said that women are stupid, or impure, or weak, or foolish, or too emotional, and has tried to discourage women from full participation in society by calling them "bitches" or threatening them with ostracism or even physical violence. It's the side that resists equality and human rights and progress towards modernity. And every time it's the side that loses in the end -- women are voting, and fighting, and learning, and researching, and gaming, despite all the sexist pushback. So I suppose it's not too surprising to see scraps of that combative insularity even in gaming. "Boys clubs" always kick up a fuss when they have to share their toys. Women are good at overcoming that, though, with decades of practice, and pretty soon we'll have equality in gaming too.

 

[Lead Herring]

So over all, would you say men and women are equal in society, men are more privileged than women or women are more privileged than men?

i'd love to say that in the western world that men & women are equal, but this just isn't the truth. Women have got so many laws passed these days that protects there actions that its crazy. An unfortunately men suffer from terrible cognitive disonnace when it comes down to women (Its that equality versus chivalry thing). Thats why when ever you hear a news story about a woman having done something terrible, the first thing thats said after what she did wrong is almost always an attempt to excuse her behaviour.

Its like that funny story last year (i think it was last year), where a 14 year old girl was taken to the police station by her parnets after they'd caught her sending naked pictures of her self via text & e-mail to older men. When it was revealed to the cops & she was about to be arrested, she ran off & after issuing warnings an officer shot her with a taser... Problem was she ducked at the last second & one of the prongs went into her skull & embedded into her brain (i swear i'm not making this up... oh in case you are wondering the other one went into her thigh).

And who got the blame? why the male officer of course. No one comments on the fact that she was fleeing the police, was issued warnings & oh, thats right she'd been circulating child porn. Nope, it was the male officers fault. An then all the follow up articles are about his court case... Nothing is ever said about her circulating child porn, ever again.

So no, i don't think men and women are equal. I think women have a leg up on us in essentially every field & all because people can't tell the difference between equality of oppurtunity & equality of outcome.

-M

I think what most of the argument on this thread comes down to is just what are the goals of feminists. Ive seen people arguing negative and positive views of the movement but I haven't really seen anyone opposed to the idea of gender equality.

Lets look at the word feminist, the reason why it is called that is because it was all about giving the oppressed females power back when they had none, an objective that in recent years it has succeed greatly in achieving. No one could have seen that as womens problems were addressed, this could have implications for men as well, hence why it was not given a name that indicated Gender Equality. It was thought male biased society plus power to women equals equality.

Now if you look at those arguing for feminist perspective, it would seem that they think men have a leg up in every field, mirroring your own view. This is simply because each person is generally biased toward their own gender. Now, I think it is counter productive to say that either side has more or worse problems at this point and what those who support gender equality from a feminist perspective need is a rebranding, possibly a name that denotes gender equality. This would seem more credible to a male perspective and it would feel like both side's issues are being addressed on the same footing.

 

[Indecipherable]

Why do you think society laughs at men who are victims of domestic abuse? Because we rejoice with your suffering? No, dude. The reason men are not given as much care is because society thinks women are ~too weak to hurt a man~. And it's other MEN who will laugh and mock those who claim to be abused, 'cause you are no longer a REAL MAN. Domestic violence, as well as rape, are equated in our society as womanly things which equal weak things. Only the ~weak women~ get abused, and because men are not ~weak~ they can't be abused. Yeah, blame misogyny for that one.

Simply ridiculous and you are a detriment to whatever you are trying to argue. The rest of your 'debate' you call everyone who disagrees with you an 'idiot' or a 'mysoginist'.

 

[PrinceArutha]

i think the best example of non-aggressive, true feminism is in this vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIjiqeUx4fk

Um, you are aware that that clip is complete and utter bullshit? Every single fact in there is either misrepresented or straight up false. Like the stat about how many girls get rapped every year walking to school. Not only is it significantly higher then the national rape stat for all of the continental US, its also a perfect example of a logical fallacy known as "Misleading vividness"

You misinterpreted my meaning in the way I phrased the last line, I never said any of the facts were correct, I stated that it was an example of "non-aggressive, true feminism"

What the video shows is an example of feminism that is not blaming men directly and aggressively insisting that men are the worst thing since Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing.

It is a subtle and non-violent way of suggesting that we should work together to make equality work, not spouting that men are source of all evil.

 

[Evidencebased]

snip

An that ladies and gentlemen is a logical fallacy called "misleading vividness," combined with "appeal to motive." It also contains a common coverstaional stratagem used by special interest groups called a Charge of Irascibility (it also contains a good dose of Charge of Cowardice just for flavour). But beyond that, its pretty standard misinformation.

Its a perfect example of the insular combative us versus them nature of feminism i'd already mentioned (and the irony that its being used to refute just that point is priceless). When presented with counter evidence, the feminist in question has moved from a discussion about imperical facts, to an attack position where it becomes clear that if you don't agree you must be the enemy & possible a mysognist. This kind of behaviour also shows the very low evidential standard that comes with confirmation biased data (data that does not need peer reviewing, by non biased experts in the field).

Pretty standard.

-M

I already said I'm up too late to continue going through your long unsubstantiated rants. Goodnight to you too darling.

 

[fulano]

You misinterpreted my meaning in the way I phrased the last line, I never said any of the facts were correct, I stated that it was an example of "non-aggressive, true feminism"

What the video shows is an example of feminism that is not blaming men directly and aggressively insisting that men are the worst thing since Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing.

It is a subtle and non-violent way of suggesting that we should work together to make equality work, not spouting that men are source of all evil.

But it does kind of invalidate itself by deliberately lying and trying to make it sound like women are worse off than they really are.

And who are you to arbitrate how worse chicks have it? I mean, are you the go to guy for whenever a chick has issues and needs a good talk?