I think people mistake feminism for equal rights activism. When you present contrasting prefixes (feminism vs. patriarchy) there's the inkling that one is acting in righteous defiance of the other and associations are drawn. I had never heard of masculism (spellcheck doesn't even recognize it as a word) before reading up on some feminist articles on wiki. I don't actively look for articles, but I've never actually seen a feminist cite a defense of male cultural mistreatment (rocks! [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_are_stupid,_throw_rocks_at_them!_controversy]) by other feminists. Fact is, feminists are not as inclined to give a shit about examples of misandry (yet another unrecognized word!) as they are about misogyny.xXxJessicaxXx said:
Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?
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Yes, but I had rocks in mine.matthew_lane said:
Also, I want to see a straw feminist in a game. A male one. How long will it take for everyone to make him the token butt-monkey?
Oh dear. It's definitely too late at night for me to respond to so much that is so wrong... Briefly:matthew_lane said:Okay, thats a good place to start: The patriarchy does not exist. When feminists shout about a patriarchy, they are shouting about an imaginary boogy man, they've invented, as so to have somethng monstorous to fight.Evidencebased said:
But there is also all the other nonsense, only men rape, men are the instigators of domestic violence, rape shieled laws exist to protect women from there rapists, gray rape is rape, wage gap exists due to institutionalized sexism, a women can do anything a man can do.
So in order
- Only men rape: Women rape too, its less common, but it doesn't make it less wrong, yet you don't see men making extremely sexist "only women can stop rape" commercials
- Men are the instigators of domestic violence: Actually peer reviewed studies show that in reciprocial intimate partner violence the split is 50/50 & in non reciprocal 70% of the time, the woman is the instigator. Those numbers are courtesy of the CDC (& the meta-study based on those and other peer reviewed studies)
- Rape shieled laws exist to protect women from there rapists: In theory yes, but the end result of that is that the man in question will be judged not in a courtroom, but in the court of public opinion, where he will be found guilty, even if it turns out he was completely innocent (as has happened in a big way in Maine at the moment)
- Gray rape is rape: If two drunk people have consentual sex & the next day one of them suffers from buyers remorse, that is not rape. One person is no more responsible then the other person.
- Wage gap exists due to institutionalized sexism: This one has been debunked for so long it not even an argument anymore.
- A women can do anything a man can do: Except that they can't. In any physically punishing field womens entry requirements are lowered, for example the armed forces. Add onto that, that while women can join the armed forces, if there is ever another world war, they can't be drafted into those same armed forces.
Actually thats not male reproductive rights. Male reproductive rights include a mans choice to opt out of fatherhood, the right to not pay child support for a child that turns out not to be his & the right for men to know for sure that the child he is paying for is genetically his. I think maybe you want to do some actual research on this subject, because i fear you are woefully ignorant of the actual facts on this topic.Evidencebased said:
Actually the N.O.W (the biggest feminist group in the world), actually boycotted & picketed a research company working on a male contraceptive pill & have since then had its funding pulled. The rest aren't reproductive rights, they are just parental rights. If your interested in learning more i suggest you look up "A voice for men" or alternatively theres a nice british youtube channel called something like manwomanmyth.Evidencebased said:
Actually i'm calling the rhetori sexist. Its like if i said your idea was stupid, its not the same as me calling you stupid.Evidencebased said:You keep saying feminism has been "debunked" over and over (and complaining about "generalizations" and "Ad Homenium Attacks" ...while calling all feminists sexist, repeatedly) but I'm not seeing any actual debunking occurring, or even any evidence that you know anything about feminism beyond the stereotypes. You say we "never" do this and that... things we do all the time. Maybe you should read up on it a little more before throwing a fit about it?
I dont differentiate between the two. There Rhetoric is wrong, so the only difference is how loud you plan on being, while being wrong.xXxJessicaxXx said:
-M
-- The patriarchy is the general system set up by society, in which being male is considered superior to being female, and both men and women alike see masculinity as "better" than femininity (for example parents will be more tolerant of their tomboy girls than their "sissy" boys, because a girl should aspire to be more like the superior male gender while a boy should not "lower" himself to do things like playing with dolls or acting feminine.) This is not a "boogyman" or even any particular group of people; it's a pervasive attitude in society.
-- Rape: No mainstream feminist says that only men rape. The majority of rapes are committed by men, including the majority of rapes where the victim is male, but women do rape. Rape shield laws protect the identity of a rape victim -- male OR female -- and prevent them from being interrogated about their past sexual behavior, so you don't get any defenses like "but she's a slut!" or "he always slept with girls at the bar, he can't say no to me!" Gray rape is "rape" because the victim was not able to consent; again, this applies to male and female victims (seriously, this has been hashed over on the Escapist so much already...)
-- Domestic violence: I've seen those studies, and they lump together attacks and self-defensive actions; you have direct punches to the face and sustained beatings counted together with defensive marks such as scratches to the arms. The former are predominantly from the male partner, while the latter are mostly from the female partner in a "reciprocal" incident; women generally sustain much worse injuries, and one woman was even charged with battery because she held a pillow in front of her to block a blow, and the pillow "hit" her husband.
-- Wage gap: faaaar from debunked. There are stats about this all over the damn place; I shouldn't have to google for you.
-- Male reproductive rights: Men pay to support their offspring just like women do; once there is a baby there is no way for either parent to "opt out" of supporting it, either financially or by raising it. Men who are not the child's father (no legal or biological relation) do not have to support it. (As for the "parenting rights" not being worth your attention... I find it interesting that you are trying so hard to separate "reproductive rights" from parenting rights. I know that MRAs are very concerned with child custody; isn't that because you care about parenting? Or is this just another tactic to try and make life difficult for your ex-wives? Counseling does wooonders... ;p)
Nope still doesn't make any sense. I asked you how a positive comment from a feminist is considered by you as worthless while you seem to hold so much stock in negative ones.matthew_lane said:
There are plenty of incidents like the one you require if you google for example
SANTA ANA, Calif. ? A 36-year-old California woman has been arrested on suspicion of child molestation and rape for allegedly flying across the country to have sex with a 13-year-old boy she befriended online, authorities said Friday.
Rachel Ann Hicks, of Lake Forest, was taken into custody Friday by Orange County sheriff's investigators.
A Maryland state trooper contacted an Orange County sheriff's investigator on Tuesday and reported that the woman initially "met" the boy in September in an X-Box live chat room. The online relationship progressed to phone calls, texting, e-mails and sending sexually explicit images and movies between one another, the sheriff's office said in a press release.
Rachel Ann Hicks, of Lake Forest, was taken into custody Friday by Orange County sheriff's investigators.
A Maryland state trooper contacted an Orange County sheriff's investigator on Tuesday and reported that the woman initially "met" the boy in September in an X-Box live chat room. The online relationship progressed to phone calls, texting, e-mails and sending sexually explicit images and movies between one another, the sheriff's office said in a press release.
That doesn't make any excuses for the woman nor do I think it should
Also I'm confused why people are complaining about feminist not standing up for male rights. They aren't stopping you from doing that are they? Theya re just trying to gain equality through promoting the cause of women. Hence the fem in feminist. It's like arguing that the cat's protection league shouldn't ignore dogs?
The problem is, women like this are as representative of the feminist movement as are the feminazis. For every woman who fights for men's rights you post I can post 2 "all heretosexual sex is rape" quotes. The feminist movement has fought almost exclusively for women's rights.xXxJessicaxXx said:
So over all, would you say men and women are equal in society, men are more privileged than women or women are more privileged than men?matthew_lane said:
Nobody is stopping masculinists? Why should feminists promote men's rights aswell its not really thier job is it? They are there to make the women's rights equal to men. That sounds kind of harsh really but they aren't trying to stop equality for men?AnubisAuman said:
I think what you guys want is feminists to be what equalists?
So in your view campaigns against animal cruelty are wrong because they don't take care of the issue of domestic abuse?
Erm you do know that even if an underage girl or boy is willingly particpating in sexual activity it's still counted as rape. So if there was an underage boy doing this the reaction would be exactly the same?
This has nothing to do with women having an advantage at all.
This has nothing to do with women having an advantage at all.
1) what youre saying is that women being able to break gender roles is... BAD, despite the fact that Feminism often claims that this is its purpose.Evidencebased said:
2) As it has preveously been stated Women can do very little that will ever be called rape. Man has sex with an underaged girl = statutory rape. Woman has sex with an underaged boy = Had an affair. Men can commit digital rape, yet if a woman does it its sexual assault. the list goes on. As for rape shield laws, i would be in favor of them if it also shielded the alleged Rapist for the sole purpose of stoping men from being publicly slandered by a womans accusation, and what if the woman has blatantly falsely accused a man of rape before, should that be admissible?
3) These studies most certainly do not lump self defence with abuse, read this one yourself http://www.patientedu.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d it specifically seperates reciprocal violence and violence where one side is the agressor, and men are actually more often admited to hospitals from violence sustained from attacks with weapons, while they were sleeping or both. Im going to go out and call your pillow story bogus, although there are plenty of stories about men who outright know they cant defend themselves from ther spouse because they fear being viewed as an abuser.
4) while i know about the wage gap issues, and know that employers like wal-mart are guilty of gender discrimination, i have never heard anyone argue this point without resorting to "pink ghetto" issues that are an entirely different matter. Its not fair that women get payed less but its perfectly alright to see %90 or so of workplace deaths and injuries happening to men.
5) a divorced woman can give a child up for adoption thereby voiding her responsibilities without needing to fund the childs development, and thanks to the ever more popular Paternity Fraud, which by the way i dont believe is illegal anywhere, men are often found responsible for children that arent theres. It is far to easy a system to play.
You are again twitsing the term feminist to mean women who are actually sexist and not merely promoting female equality. It doesnt' matter which side you approach equality from you still get equality in the end.matthew_lane said:
Ok it really comes down to what you define as sexist. Sexist language basically describes that a given party/group uses language/images that ASSUME that either sex has to do one thing or has to be one thing or cant be something. Please tell me if that doesnt make sense.
But basically what im trying to get at is sexism is when a jerk on DOTA says f*** off you play like a girl, as it assumes that girls cant play games. Or when gamestation posts their games are cheaper than your girlfriend, as this assumes that girls are B****s that will only give you the light of day if you have a wallet full of cash. But one also has to realise that at one point in time feminists thought that holding the door open for them was "sexist". (actually they thought it was chivalrous and some feminists thought that chivalry was sexist).
Something you may have noticed is basically being sexist means that one is applying a unreasonable stereotype to a gender. And that is why many gamers find feminism bs because our brains need to stereotype groups to understand our surroundings, and then for them to be told that thier "reality" is cruel or unfair, they retaliate because they dont want to be the "BAD GUY"
But basically what im trying to get at is sexism is when a jerk on DOTA says f*** off you play like a girl, as it assumes that girls cant play games. Or when gamestation posts their games are cheaper than your girlfriend, as this assumes that girls are B****s that will only give you the light of day if you have a wallet full of cash. But one also has to realise that at one point in time feminists thought that holding the door open for them was "sexist". (actually they thought it was chivalrous and some feminists thought that chivalry was sexist).
Something you may have noticed is basically being sexist means that one is applying a unreasonable stereotype to a gender. And that is why many gamers find feminism bs because our brains need to stereotype groups to understand our surroundings, and then for them to be told that thier "reality" is cruel or unfair, they retaliate because they dont want to be the "BAD GUY"
It's not even that, a lot of the time it's because the whole point of the character is that they are physical perfection. Solid Snake tends to wear a skin tight wet suit (and occasionaly engages in shirtless fist fights), every second male character from fighting games is shirtless, Frank West has covered wars you know....I haven't even started on the impossible male physiches in JRPGs and shooter based games....Lara Croft isn't only hot for the sake of eye candy, she's hot because people (including women, gasp) are more likely to look up too and idolize an attractive protagonist....Shocking revelation I know.Torrasque said:
Wait...So Women who are caught, red handedly faking to be victim to one of the most horrible crimes anyone is capable of committing, a crime so horrible that those guilty of committing it are all but completely rejected from society. If you are accused of rape, even if all charges are dropped, it's a gigantic smudge on your record and people will instantly look down on you, if you're convicted anyone who is aware will instantly hate you for it, so yeah, being wrongfully convicted of rape is kind of a big deal, even if it is rare.ViaGalactica said:
You're contending that at no point is it because they man doesn't want the label and associated treatments of a wife beater? I'm not sure how obvious this is, but typically men are bigger than women, and if a woman was to physically attack a man, and that man was to physically defend himself, chances are the woman would, at the very least, suffer minor injuries...Funny how men who are victims of domestic violence never seem to harm their attackers...Must have something to do with society deeming you as being less of a man if you hit a woman than if you are hit by one. Of course, a typical feminist would universally condemn any man who used brute force to overpower a woman, because it's never fair for men to exploit a natural physical advantage over women.
Choose a less extreme example, how about women punching men in the face compared to men hitting women? It seems to be a pretty common cliche in the romantic comedy genre for the pretty female lead to reject the successful male antogonist, who is in some way bullying the geekier 'nice' male prodagonist, and to deliver her cute little first into his face which usually causing him to drop to the ground....I don't recall ever seeing the reverse happen.
Nobody here is claiming that women are "not tough enough", we're just saying that this whole media facade of sexism in the mainstream media goes both ways, and only a minority of women get sucked in by it and actually think they are specifically victimized by gender stereotypes in the mainstream media.