Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?
- Thread starter aks100
- Start date
Recommended Videos
What about all the people posting in this thread who have said that they are opposed to feminism? Or that feminism is wrong, which implies they at least should be opposed to it?PhiMed said:
That sort of gives the impression that people are against feminism.
After a lot of time googling and firing up my neurons, I finally found it! I remembered it from the movie "Roger Dodger". This here is what I was talking about (yay I'm not crazy):Father Time said:I highly doubt it (the part about one sex of a species evolving over the other). For that to be true I think they would have to reproduce asexually, which natural selection frowns upon.xXxJessicaxXx said:Is that even possible scientifically? I mean one sex of a species evolving without the other. I heard a theory that women have more evolved speech due to the hunter gatherer roles during our species development. Might explain why we can't shut up.Venereus said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12orl08t1zE
Ah, yes. Internet forum comments: A completely accurate and reliable representation of overall public opinion.thaluikhain said:
Additionally, "feminism overreaches" and "feminism makes unreasonable claims" is not the same thing as "feminism, and everything it represents, is bad". ACTUALLY being against feminism is the third one. No philosophy should be free from all criticism.
...how can women have the "same" rights as men, but not the other way around? Your math makes no sense.DementedSheep said:
And yeah, as a feminist who spends a lot of time talking to and working with a lot of other feminists, I will tell you that all of those issues such as child support and parental leave and gender (including gender roles and pressure for men) are feminist issues. I mean, hilarious and bizarre as it is to hear non-feminists try to define what is and isn't "feminism," I assure you this kind of thing is always under discussion among feminists -- "what about men?" is not much of a gotcha question when we ask it of ourselves all the time!
Quit getting caught up in the name; whining about the "fem" in feminism and refusing to listen to its true definition is just like people whining about the "man" in human. It's about equality, and about the belief that making women and men equal will actually benefit both men and women. Did you know that a lot of feminists worry about boys getting bullied and pressured to be "tough" as much as they worry about girls being pressured to be sweet and "girly"? Or that most feminists who are pushing for better maternity leave also want paternity leave as well? The slogan is "patriarchy hurts men too" and it's very well known. Feminists want to help out the men they love along with helping out women, obviously.
And, more on the subject of gaming, it's dull for guys to always only play gruff Rambo types or mute space marines -- not to mention it teaches little boys some kind of weird messages about masculinity (men never talk or emote! they fight aliens in total silence!) Having ever character be male or hypermasculine is just as restrictive for male gamers as for women (though it might be harder for male gamers to notice the restrictions, since they're pandered to more) so part of feminism in gaming is having more engaging, diverse male characters too (though female characters are somewhat worse off, currently.)
It's about adding new types of games and characters and stories, and new ways for men and women to interact, not trying to restrict them or "take away" rights from anyone.
... I thought Valentines day WAS steak and blow job day.John Marcone said:
I mean, that's how my valentine's days always end up. You know, I get taken out for a nice steak. Maybe some chocolates. Then home (or a theater that one time) for the oral sex. And, you know, various other flavors of sex.
I'm against "feminism" in games because sexual/gender politics is something that I have NEVER seen portrayed well in games.
I've seen it portrayed as a parody like in Duke Nukem.
I've seen it ignored like in Farcry 2.
I've seen it portrayed as irrelevant like in Metroid (fuck off Other M, you never happened).
I've seen it treated horribly like in Resident Evil 5.
I've never seen those themes played out well.
I've seen it portrayed as a parody like in Duke Nukem.
I've seen it ignored like in Farcry 2.
I've seen it portrayed as irrelevant like in Metroid (fuck off Other M, you never happened).
I've seen it treated horribly like in Resident Evil 5.
I've never seen those themes played out well.
I get the feeling most proponents of having quality female characters are always ending up blaming male gamers' criteria of what makes a good game or what male gamers' generally wants in a good game.
You are doing it wrong.
Have the need to blame something? Blame the lack of decent female game developers, writers and artists belonging under one company (not saying those who work in the industry like Jade Raymond are not good at their craft) who will craft the game with the specific tastes you require, if you truly believe that women are their own separate entity that requires a different set of variables to meet their criteria. More twilight-characters instead of Kratos in video games would be a good start, yes? (Not trying to generalize, but still having a hard time seeing how male game developers are misogynistic, when the gaming industry was primarily started by nerdy programmers, and who definitely don't look the part now, but still possess a greater male:female ratio on the development part. Are they really to blame if 'few' female programmers, artists, are willing to go into bringing forth their own ideas and concepts for new games that could have better female leads, and stories that try to have a 'feminist-friendly' stuff? Then there's the so call target audience who have always been ostracized (by females no less, for having a 'children-hobby', so I might sound like a big sexist, misogynist bastard for the next part, but seriously, while these male programmers and artists probably were seen as just as the nerdy kid who were fun to pick on, and prone to fail against the mainstream entertainment industry, yet perserved over the years, from Duke Nukem, to Call of Duty, do we honestly expect them to be able to create decent female characters, without female developers, artists, and programmers to back them up?
http://xbox.about.com/od/toppicks/tp/x360topten.htm
I am not sure how that list is accurate. But top selling games, and top rated games' female characters are almost not there just for eye candy. The Spartan with the cyborg-arm in Reach was a tactical asset to the Spartan team, just like any Spartan would be, Anya in GoW provides the much needed support the cogs need, the women in GTA 4 are not just hookers, but 'entrepreneurs' like Isabella (the fat druggie Niko was working for > . >, can't remember the name to be honest).
Then there's Alyx, I despise her simply because she is seemingly perfect, the intelligence to turn a tiny robot pet into a huge robot pet, the ability to survive a battlezone without any armor and a side arm, the looks, the bad jokes (your mom is a zombine!).
Most of the game I am playing at the moment, does not even have good male characters, Crysis 2, Alcatraz, compare him to Mrs. Strickland. Sure, he has a nanosuit, but at the end of the day, his gender barely matters, since he is a you, or a she is a you, that definitely works too. Like I used to say, there's no harm in having the option to be referred as a she/he before the game starts, kinda like in Halo:Reach.
So, what the fuck is wrong with having female characters that might just be purely for eye-candy (like Isabella in Dragon Age 2, I mean, she was a 'shallow', greedy, backstabbing *****)? When you have 'shallow', loud, obnoxious, and alpha-manly-man like Cole Train? -I guess their back-stories do make them less shallow, if that counts.
Do every single characters need to be realistic to the point of being boring? Yeah, let's have every single female characters in video game as their male counter-parts, loud, obnoxious, maybe a little bit witty, tossing around one-liners. Maybe everyone will be happy then.
Or you can always go the bioware route, all the males and females are eye candies and bisexuals, and your bff is asexual for sure ... win-win I guess?
And for Dante, there's Bayonetta, and while many might disagree about how much time a certain game dev spent to design the perfect pair of cheeks on her, she kicks ass while the man on the show has to take care of the kid, she is funny to listen to, and barely flinch or squeal like a little girl when in a pinch.
Final Edit: Also, you keep hearing about wanting to give equal chance to represent Homosexuality, and Women in video games. Why is no one complaining about the lack of good minority characters? Why are do most muslim or arab characters make for good target to shoot at ? (Arma 2/CoD4 etc...)
Same answer as with everything else, you want to be represented? Make your effort to be, get into game development, whether indie, or otherwise. I tend to spend money on a lot of crap, I will probably buy your game anyway (if it has a mech or two in it).
You are doing it wrong.
Have the need to blame something? Blame the lack of decent female game developers, writers and artists belonging under one company (not saying those who work in the industry like Jade Raymond are not good at their craft) who will craft the game with the specific tastes you require, if you truly believe that women are their own separate entity that requires a different set of variables to meet their criteria. More twilight-characters instead of Kratos in video games would be a good start, yes? (Not trying to generalize, but still having a hard time seeing how male game developers are misogynistic, when the gaming industry was primarily started by nerdy programmers, and who definitely don't look the part now, but still possess a greater male:female ratio on the development part. Are they really to blame if 'few' female programmers, artists, are willing to go into bringing forth their own ideas and concepts for new games that could have better female leads, and stories that try to have a 'feminist-friendly' stuff? Then there's the so call target audience who have always been ostracized (by females no less, for having a 'children-hobby', so I might sound like a big sexist, misogynist bastard for the next part, but seriously, while these male programmers and artists probably were seen as just as the nerdy kid who were fun to pick on, and prone to fail against the mainstream entertainment industry, yet perserved over the years, from Duke Nukem, to Call of Duty, do we honestly expect them to be able to create decent female characters, without female developers, artists, and programmers to back them up?
http://xbox.about.com/od/toppicks/tp/x360topten.htm
I am not sure how that list is accurate. But top selling games, and top rated games' female characters are almost not there just for eye candy. The Spartan with the cyborg-arm in Reach was a tactical asset to the Spartan team, just like any Spartan would be, Anya in GoW provides the much needed support the cogs need, the women in GTA 4 are not just hookers, but 'entrepreneurs' like Isabella (the fat druggie Niko was working for > . >, can't remember the name to be honest).
Then there's Alyx, I despise her simply because she is seemingly perfect, the intelligence to turn a tiny robot pet into a huge robot pet, the ability to survive a battlezone without any armor and a side arm, the looks, the bad jokes (your mom is a zombine!).
Most of the game I am playing at the moment, does not even have good male characters, Crysis 2, Alcatraz, compare him to Mrs. Strickland. Sure, he has a nanosuit, but at the end of the day, his gender barely matters, since he is a you, or a she is a you, that definitely works too. Like I used to say, there's no harm in having the option to be referred as a she/he before the game starts, kinda like in Halo:Reach.
So, what the fuck is wrong with having female characters that might just be purely for eye-candy (like Isabella in Dragon Age 2, I mean, she was a 'shallow', greedy, backstabbing *****)? When you have 'shallow', loud, obnoxious, and alpha-manly-man like Cole Train? -I guess their back-stories do make them less shallow, if that counts.
Do every single characters need to be realistic to the point of being boring? Yeah, let's have every single female characters in video game as their male counter-parts, loud, obnoxious, maybe a little bit witty, tossing around one-liners. Maybe everyone will be happy then.
Or you can always go the bioware route, all the males and females are eye candies and bisexuals, and your bff is asexual for sure ... win-win I guess?
And for Dante, there's Bayonetta, and while many might disagree about how much time a certain game dev spent to design the perfect pair of cheeks on her, she kicks ass while the man on the show has to take care of the kid, she is funny to listen to, and barely flinch or squeal like a little girl when in a pinch.
Final Edit: Also, you keep hearing about wanting to give equal chance to represent Homosexuality, and Women in video games. Why is no one complaining about the lack of good minority characters? Why are do most muslim or arab characters make for good target to shoot at ? (Arma 2/CoD4 etc...)
Same answer as with everything else, you want to be represented? Make your effort to be, get into game development, whether indie, or otherwise. I tend to spend money on a lot of crap, I will probably buy your game anyway (if it has a mech or two in it).
I think people are confusing feminism 'the belief in equal rights for women' with the extreme people who get referred to as feminazi's. Equality is what TRUE feminists want. Using extremism as an excuse for reactionary comments against equal rights for women is the same as arguing that all muslims are car bombers.
I think my point is that you are taking some horribly extreme view of feminism and using it to become reactionary against it. Like McCarthy against Communism. When most peopel think of communism they think of the evils of Stalin however Stalin wasn't communist he was a dictator and had twisted communism around so far it wasn't recognisable. Nowadays people are liek Urgh communism we don't want that. When they don't have any idea what actual communism is.
Your being reactionary about extreme examples of an ism.
I think my point is that you are taking some horribly extreme view of feminism and using it to become reactionary against it. Like McCarthy against Communism. When most peopel think of communism they think of the evils of Stalin however Stalin wasn't communist he was a dictator and had twisted communism around so far it wasn't recognisable. Nowadays people are liek Urgh communism we don't want that. When they don't have any idea what actual communism is.
Your being reactionary about extreme examples of an ism.
This is a massive reason why I think twice about discussing this issues with people who view things through such distorted generalizations, such as the one above.xXxJessicaxXx said:
But omission is a far worst alternative.
So it is a subject which needs to be treated with more maturity and responsability, not abandoned altogether.Custard_Angel said:
And when the resistance almost always manifests itself in the form of broad and conveniently vague accusations, more certain I am of this.Stiffkittin said:
@matthew_lane
Well if you want examples here is an example from the Internatinal Men's day wiki page that I read before
'Speaking on behalf of UNESCO, Director of Women and Culture of Peace Ingeborg Breines said of IMD, ?This is an excellent idea and would give some gender balance.? She added that UNESCO was looking forward to cooperating with the organizers'
So there is an example of a woman who I assume is a feminist from her job description supporting the promotion of a men's day which looks at 'focusing on men's and boy's health, improving gender relations, promoting gender equality, and highlighting positive male role models.'
Well if you want examples here is an example from the Internatinal Men's day wiki page that I read before
'Speaking on behalf of UNESCO, Director of Women and Culture of Peace Ingeborg Breines said of IMD, ?This is an excellent idea and would give some gender balance.? She added that UNESCO was looking forward to cooperating with the organizers'
So there is an example of a woman who I assume is a feminist from her job description supporting the promotion of a men's day which looks at 'focusing on men's and boy's health, improving gender relations, promoting gender equality, and highlighting positive male role models.'
They're not against gender neutrality. They're against everyone being so focused on not offending anyone that no actual progress can ever be made.