Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[BRex21]

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I'm not being aggressive, I was being condescending. Big difference. I've been calm all these posts. Seriously, though, in my experience everytime a woman or a man told a feminist to just 'forget about it' or 'stop whining' it was because they were in a priviledge position.

So, you are different, alright, fine. You still don't get to be dismissive because the fight is not won nor is it going to be magically solved. Sure there are more women in the idustry, but that does not guarantee a change. The only thing that could guarantee a change would be to be vocal about the things we like, don't like and want changed. (And hoping someone listens.)

Having female leads does not mean that the sexist barrier has been overcome. Seriously, you get to name four, I can name twenty more games that include men as a lead. That's an inbalance. And at the rate things are going, it will not be fixed. Positive female representation in gaming is not seen as often as male. And that's the problem -- one that will not be solved by sitting back and hoping.

Cooking Mama's popularity proves what, exactly? So, because a lot of people play it, it stops being a blatant representation of archaic gender roles? I mean, of course it sells. That's what parents would buy to their daughters, not shooters or sports games. (That's for the boys.) I don't hate on Cooking Mama because it is popular, or because it is pink, or because others like it. I hate on it for the same reason I hate sports games being targeted solely at boys: it creates a divide. A divide society has deemed suitable for what boys and girls should like. Girls and the cooking, boys and the sports. And what happens when kids grow up and realize that they like the opposite? Yes, teenagers are very acceptant of girls who like football or boys who like cooking, right?

Where are you getting these crazy ideas that I want women to get paid more than men? Or to take over advertising? No, my complaint was that, since you claim BioWare products to be so progressive, why haven't they included the female character in their advertising? That doesn't immediately translate to "GET THE DUDES OUT OF THE POSTERS! BRING IN THE BOOBS!" No. They could've easily made a poster including the women and a poster including a man. But they went for a male because of the sexism that still prevails in gaming.

But if we don't express our opinions on what we consider a wrongful portrayal of women, how are we to expect the industry to change? As I said, it's not about breaking into their offices and biting away like the rabid b!tches we are, but rather, make our concerns vocal. ANd what happens when we do so, we get called feminazis and are told that we just 'whine too much.'

Did you ever consider that your fighting againts advertising that mocks a social norm, might actually just be whining? That the whole things that started this was a joke not entirely unlike the hundreds of other jokes put into advertising mocking people based on gender lines? If you pick your battles a little more tactfully people might not tell you to suck it up so much.

While men are still refused monetary support and encouragement to become primary carers we still need feminism.

... You do realise feminism is about women right? Stop trying to claim other issues are feminist issues.

Feminism is about gender and not just about women. And frankly I think they should be fighting these issues or else be massive hypocrites.

No feminism is about woman?s rights specifically hence the name. It has nothing to do with men?s rights. Yes you would be a massive hypocrite if you wanted woman to have the same opportunities as men and not the other way around but that does not change the fact that men?s rights are not actually part of feminism. A guy who wants equal rights on parenting issue is not a feminist.

...how can women have the "same" rights as men, but not the other way around? Your math makes no sense.

And yeah, as a feminist who spends a lot of time talking to and working with a lot of other feminists, I will tell you that all of those issues such as child support and parental leave and gender (including gender roles and pressure for men) are feminist issues. I mean, hilarious and bizarre as it is to hear non-feminists try to define what is and isn't "feminism," I assure you this kind of thing is always under discussion among feminists -- "what about men?" is not much of a gotcha question when we ask it of ourselves all the time!

Quit getting caught up in the name; whining about the "fem" in feminism and refusing to listen to its true definition is just like people whining about the "man" in human. It's about equality, and about the belief that making women and men equal will actually benefit both men and women. Did you know that a lot of feminists worry about boys getting bullied and pressured to be "tough" as much as they worry about girls being pressured to be sweet and "girly"? Or that most feminists who are pushing for better maternity leave also want paternity leave as well? The slogan is "patriarchy hurts men too" and it's very well known. Feminists want to help out the men they love along with helping out women, obviously.

And, more on the subject of gaming, it's dull for guys to always only play gruff Rambo types or mute space marines -- not to mention it teaches little boys some kind of weird messages about masculinity (men never talk or emote! they fight aliens in total silence!) Having ever character be male or hypermasculine is just as restrictive for male gamers as for women (though it might be harder for male gamers to notice the restrictions, since they're pandered to more) so part of feminism in gaming is having more engaging, diverse male characters too (though female characters are somewhat worse off, currently.)

It's about adding new types of games and characters and stories, and new ways for men and women to interact, not trying to restrict them or "take away" rights from anyone.

First off its pretty easy for one group to have all the rights of another without it being reciprocal, can you honestly not get this? there are advantages to being a man, there are advantages to being a woman and the push for equality has been fairly gender biased. This means a push to give women all of "mens rights" with little push to give men "womens rights" while i dont fully agree with what he said he has a valid point, it was basically that women recieved all of mens rights yet kept all of their own for themselves.
Also i find it funny that you outright admit that the average videogame character is a bland two dimensional character, because so many people have been arguing that this is only the case for femail characters. The truth is writing is hard and it often takes a back seat, and if we go with a generic hero that often means bland, unrealistically shaped man, which, seems less offensive than bland, unrealistically shaped woman.
I also want to point out that you say feminists want to help out men and women, yet you cant deny that there are very vocal radical femenists who outright hate men. Sadly most people in these forums choose to pretend they dont exist rather than say that they are a vocal minority that does not speak for the group.

 

[jboking]

I apologise i misread your post, disregard this

That's fine, but for the record, I actually had formulated a response to most of those.

Men who scream bloody murder because some people are actually interested in these issues and think they need to be discussed have no goddamn excuse whatsoever! As I mentioned to someone recently, I am absolutely astounded by the level of resistance to change I've seen in many of the comments on this and similar threads here on the escapist. The fear in them is palpable. It's like the mere whiff of the subject triggers the inner neanderthal in scads of guys across the community.

You're surprised people aren't jumping at every opportunity to spark change? Really? You're surprised that a group of people who have nearly a full industry marketing to just them doesn't want that to change?

Just a thought, but maybe it's just the term feminism that causes so much ire. Try asking random people what they think the average feminist believes. Then ask them what they think the average equalist believes. You might notice a pretty big difference.

The simple fact that this resistance to female empowerment exists is reason enough for many more threads like this.

No, it doesn't warrant more threads like this. It warrants better threads where feminism is actually discussed and we examine the good things and the bad. Where we look for what the Feminist movement today stands for and decide if it is justified or if we should be looking for gender equality elsewhere. Where we look to game stories to see how developers could incorporate a female lead without making her either analogous with a male counterpart, or a stereotype of the hot, ditzy woman (aka, make her a believable woman that isn't just a rehash of a male character with the appropriate physiology added).

We don't need more discussions like this, because they only lead to flaming. We need better discussions with actual solid points to look at.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

@matthew_lane

Well if you want examples here is an example from the Internatinal Men's day wiki page that I read before

'Speaking on behalf of UNESCO, Director of Women and Culture of Peace Ingeborg Breines said of IMD, ?This is an excellent idea and would give some gender balance.? She added that UNESCO was looking forward to cooperating with the organizers'

So there is an example of a woman who I assume is a feminist from her job description supporting the promotion of a men's day which looks at 'focusing on men's and boy's health, improving gender relations, promoting gender equality, and highlighting positive male role models.'

The only thing that is, is more lip service. Its literally just more empty talk.

So how do you differentiate between that and what the extremist feminist says? Surely that should be empty talk too?

 

[Evidencebased]

I think people are confusing feminism 'the belief in equal rights for women' with the extreme people who get referred to as feminazi's. Equality is what TRUE feminists want.

Have you ever heard the saying "Actions speak louder the words." It doesn't matter how many times feminists yell "We want sexual equality," or how loudly its shouted, the fact that there actions are only for counter sexism blots that out any nice ideas they may verbally enspouse.

however if you think feminists aren't sexists, i pose these questions to you: when was the last time you saw a feminist fighting for male reproductive rights, when was the last time you heard feminists fighting to have "rape shield laws" over turned as a travesty of justice, when was the last time you heard a feminist debunking the stadard feminist rhetoric? The answer is inevitably "never" & i'm sorry, but if you aren't fighting for those things as well you aren't fighting for eqaulity, you are just fighting for counter sexism.

As you and i agreed on before, both genders should be working together for better PC characters: well the same goes for actual gender eqaulity & the sexist rhetoric of feminism has no way to achieve actual equality. It also doesn't help that when the feminist rhetoric which has stood for 50 years unchallenged is debunked (& lets not beat around the bush, it has been thoroughly debunked), feminists resort to there grab bag of logical fallicies: appeal to motive, misleading vividness, hasty generalizations, red herring statements & the always popular Ad Homenium Attack.

That's...super vague. "[W]hen was the last time you heard a feminist debunking the stadard feminist rhetoric?" What rhetoric, particularly, were you hoping to hear a feminist debunk? The part about how men and women should be treated equally? The part about how patriarchy hurts men, too? The part about how we can't just let ourselves become the kind of oppression we're fighting? That's the only "feminist rhetoric" I can think of off the top of my head...

And you're sure ignoring the examples people keep giving aren'tcha? I specifically mentioned that a lot of feminists support paternity leave along with maternity leave; that's male reproductive rights. Feminists support more research into male contraception, and support gay men (or single men) being able to adopt children more easily; those sound like male reproductive rights to me. Lots of feminists would like for husbands and fathers to be given more flexibility in whether they want to stay home with the kids, or if they want to work part time and have more parenting opportunities that way.

You keep saying feminism has been "debunked" over and over (and complaining about "generalizations" and "Ad Homenium Attacks" ...while calling all feminists sexist, repeatedly) but I'm not seeing any actual debunking occurring, or even any evidence that you know anything about feminism beyond the stereotypes. You say we "never" do this and that... things we do all the time. Maybe you should read up on it a little more before throwing a fit about it?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Furthermore, I understand discrimination all too bloody well, seeing as I am autistic. No I'm not just making it up for brownie points. I really truly am. I cannot keep work probably because employers here can feel the "offness" of me from "normal" people and they want rid of me.
I mean really, THIS is what bothers you? Of all the things to launch into a bunch of hateful bickering arguments about? This kind of bullshit? Really?!

Well I could argue a feminist platform from the fact that I have suffered domestic abuse for most of my life up which has resulted in Post traumatic stress syndrome and Anxiety disorder. I won't though becuase of what people might say about that which will just exacerbate my problems. I really don't want to be believe all men are assholes nor do I think it's true.

 

[Choppaduel]

if you accept feminism, consistently, you must also accept masculism.

 

[Sovvolf]

I think people are confusing feminism 'the belief in equal rights for women' with the extreme people who get referred to as feminazi's. Equality is what TRUE feminists want. Using extremism as an excuse for reactionary comments against equal rights for women is the same as arguing that all muslims are car bombers.

Pretty much the vibe I've been getting from reading a few pages on here (not read the lot... 10 pages is a little much). Theres a difference between the sexist pilticherds than hide under the flag of feminism and feminists.

feminists them selves just want equal rights for both for women, which I can respect and I can stand by. I've met many-a-feminist in my time, both male and female and besides that idiots that like the think them selves feminists, they've all been pretty good people who want equality for both sides.

I think feminists get a bad rep from most for the same reason American conservatives get a bad rep, the vocal minority. The idiots that need to be as loud as they can and look as idiotic as they can to show off their views. Most of the silent majority are probably sound people with sound idiots hoping not to really bother people, just getting on with there lives.

I imagine most of the anti-feminism you see in game (not sure which games but I don't really look out for that sort of thing, I like to play my games and enjoy them) will probably be built on the poor reputation built up by the vocal minority.

As for the Gamestation (I think) add, I thought it was pretty funny, was a bit of a joke, I can see why people were offended but well, I'm pretty sure there's just as bad adverts on the other side of the fence. That being said, the Yorkie (just for men) ads and marketing went on for a while before eventually getting pulled.

 

[Chemical Alia]

Have the need to blame something? Blame the lack of decent female game developers, writers and artists belonging under one company (not saying those who work in the industry like Jade Raymond are not good at their craft) who will craft the game with the specific tastes you require, if you truly believe that women are their own separate entity that requires a different set of variables to meet their criteria. More twilight-characters instead of Kratos in video games would be a good start, yes? (Not trying to generalize, but still having a hard time seeing how male game developers are misogynistic, when the gaming industry was primarily started by nerdy programmers, and who definitely don't look the part now, but still possess a greater male:female ratio on the development part. Are they really to blame if 'few' female programmers, artists, are willing to go into bringing forth their own ideas and concepts for new games that could have better female leads, and stories that try to have a 'feminist-friendly' stuff? Then there's the so call target audience who have always been ostracized (by females no less, for having a 'children-hobby', so I might sound like a big sexist, misogynist bastard for the next part, but seriously, while these male programmers and artists probably were seen as just as the nerdy kid who were fun to pick on, and prone to fail against the mainstream entertainment industry, yet perserved over the years, from Duke Nukem, to Call of Duty, do we honestly expect them to be able to create decent female characters, without female developers, artists, and programmers to back them up?

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Same answer as with everything else, you want to be represented? Make your effort to be, get into game development, whether indie, or otherwise. I tend to spend money on a lot of crap, I will probably buy your game anyway (if it has a mech or two in it).

Totally agreed. In game studios, especially one that produces mostly FPSs, you'll notice such an overwhelming dominance of one particular demographic. Age probably varies the most, but you have mostly guys with the same general interests, whether they're programmers, artists, etc. I would love to see a breakdown of women in the game industry, and their dispersion by game studios and what genres they produce.

I think that getting more women into game development is the best way to see things change, because more females making games means more females are interested enough in them to want to play an active role in the decisions that are made.

It can be easier said than done, though. Suppose an artist applies for a job at a AAA company that makes FPS games. What kind of portfolio is going to get her the job? She is expected to demonstrate work that fits the style of the games the company produces. You have to show by your artwork that your artistic sensibilities and interests in subject matter are in line with that studio's company culture. And in many big studios, it's not until you reach a lead/concept position that you have much say in the art direction of the game you're working on, so for most entry level people it's just a matter of matching the style guide.

A lot of student work I've seen from females has been bright, cutesy/fantasy, which tells the art director little about the ability to model weapons for the next Gears of War. Is it possible that most women who work in the industry gravitate towards casual/kids' games? Probably, and that doesn't help us out in the games that need women the most. So for now, we're still relying on getting women who are totally cool with drawing and playing games with tits on every surface and space marines with The Large.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, lol.

Spoiler

 

[ViaGalactica]

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Le Blah~

Did you ever consider that that was not the original reason of my 'whining'? I don't know what started this post, dude. I am just here to reply to the posts that I consider are worth replying to, or those that end up quoting my shit. And about the ad, hell, it's immature and it's sexist, and it helps perpetuate terrible stereotypes. But if you don't consider that something worth complaining about then, what is?

 

[LetalisK]

To add my 2 cents, I think maybe this comes down to how the genders end up dealing with stereotypes(note: I'm taking a guess here, I haven't done experiments on this or anything). Men, particularly protagonists, are just as heavily stereotyped into being muscle-bound, handsome, confident, and usually witty and charismatic. Basically, the typical alpha male. On the female side, the women are either very modest, meek, and demure in the stepford wife tradition, or they're very confident, aggressive, and flaunt their sexuality. I've seen more hate thrown at the latter for portraying women as "sex objects", though it seems that would be the end-goal of feminism: women who have no problem holding their own against their male counterparts. The strange thing is the male stereotype is also flaunting his sexuality and what is commonly considered sexy for a man, but we're so used to that as the norm that it doesn't even register to us.

Anyway, back to my point. Men, when faced with their stereotype, will embrace it as a "Oh, this is what I want to be!" mentality. It's a pleasant experience to take on features we may lack in real life. Conversely, women may react more negatively to their stereotype, particularly the sexual and aggressive one, because it does not reflect who they are. Instead of becoming the character, they want the character to become them.

Oh, and while we're on the subject, something that drives me crazy is when someone puts up Alyx from Half-Life as a model female character. No, she is not. She is androgynous and being female has absolutely nothing to do with her character. Don't get me wrong, she's still a great character, and there is nothing wrong with a character acting in a gender neutral way, but you can't tout a character for being a model female character when their gender is ignored, irrelevant, and they don't breach the issues inherent with being of a specific gender.

 

[Indecipherable]

Some random musings:

First of all you cannot generalise any point of view as simply as 'feminists think x y z' as everyone is individual and have differing views and values. To generalise in such a fashion does not bode well for your own argument.

People all see the world through their own experiences and everything is coloured in this fashion. What you see as being unfair is quite possibly not even recognised from another perspective. Inevitably this leads to a tit-for-tat argument online.

To take an extreme point and paint all views that way (see generalisations above) is pointless. There are loonies in every camp out there. Learn to just not waste your time responding to these people are they are not worth your time and effort.

A bit of understanding goes an awfully long way.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

So how do you differentiate between that and what the extremist feminist says? Surely that should be empty talk too?

I dont differentiate between the two. There Rhetoric is wrong, so the only difference is how loud you plan on being, while being wrong.

-M

I don't understand what you mean? How is a feminist postively commenting on male equality and representation less meaningful as an extreme feminist commenting negatively.

Your answer doesn't make any sense?

It seems you only want to accept evidence that supports your view.

But there is also all the other nonsense, only men rape, men are the instigators of domestic violence

I'm a feminist and I don't believe that and I've suffered from domestic abuse from my father and an ex boyfriend. You are making generalisations from the extremist arm of feminism.

 

[BRex21]

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Le Blah~

Did you ever consider that that was not the original reason of my 'whining'? I don't know what started this post, dude. I am just here to reply to the posts that I consider are worth replying to, or those that end up quoting my shit. And about the ad, hell, it's immature and it's sexist, and it helps perpetuate terrible stereotypes. But if you don't consider that something worth complaining about then, what is?

Hmmm, something worth complaining about...
How about the fact that since cameras have become mandatory in taxis in my city 3 women have been charged with falsifying rape claims in order to get out of fares, yet they are protected by feminist dogma that literally labels them as victims and face a maximum of $1000.00 fine despite the fact that they virtually tried to end someones life.
How about the fact that men have virtually no resource to go to if they are facing domestic abuse, recieve virtually no protection from the law and can be arrested for defending themselves, despite making up a slight majority of victims of nonreciprocal domestic abuse.
How about the fact that a man being shot in the penis carries a pg-14 rating, and is considered funny, yet to do anything similar to a woman would be virtually unthinkable outside of extreme slasher films. Even extremely graphic movies like Kickass shy away from death if its a womans.
How about the fact that a woman can violently sexually assault a man and the general concensus of the public would be that he probably deserved it. Or that they would probably laugh. That therapists are actually diagnosing young boys with "rape trauma syndrome" because young girls can get away with sexual assault.
But talking about these issues is virtually unheard of, no we have to talk about insult comedy being directed at women. because god knows they arent tough enough to handle it.