Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[Belated]

I think that most people's idea of feminism isn't what the actual feminists support.

At least most feminists (me, as a male, included) don't support the idea of a female supremacy or idolize butches. Feminism is supposed to be about choice.

It's wrong for people to criticize girls who like "boy things" such as gaming and Wrestling.

It's wrong to criticize them for wearing make-up or wanting to look attractive as well.

What most self-proclaimed feminists that I know demand is that everyone regardless of sex or gender has the right to do whatever he/she feels like, and they work for a world where diversity in role models exists.

Nobody but a few extremists want to tell a woman that she can't look pretty or attractive. We don't want to keep men from working out. What we want is a media that shows that there are alternatives to that. The woman doesn't always have to be right. But in the broad majority of games she's either the love interest put in so her boobs can profit from cutting edge graphics, a weak and "girlish" persona (take Riku from FFX) or a man with tits (Lara Croft). Actually, Yuna from FFX makes for a good female character in my books. (not in FFX-2 of course, but then again let's just pretend the sequel never existed) She's strong and determined to sacrifice herself, but she also shows that the task is heavy on her. She's beautiful, but not dressed in a bikini. (again, ignore FFX-2) I think it is great to see that she can be weak, while there is no man that is stronger than her.

As long as most games portray women wearing ridiculously small amounts of armor in medieval games, and as long as they're reduced to their sexuality, as long as homosexuals belong in the comedy section, games are not better than other media.

As some pointed out, this is what we get everywhere - in movies, ads, magazines as well. Machete is pretty much like Duke Nukem, both a little on the satirical side while still taken seriously by too many people.

I haven't given up hope yet that games grow up and get over the stereotype.

Because male gamers can take a joke.

Funny how you argue that that ad campaign isn't sexist, but then you burst out a sexist remark like that. Are you actually implying that men, unlike women, have a sense of humour? The Joke just isn't funny if you hear it every day.

Actually I was just making a joke myself. In three ways:
-The juxtaposition of that statement to the rest of my argument.
-The way the statement is also a joke based on gender, like the topic at hand.
-The irony that the joke statement states that men can take a joke, only to prompt somebody to prove that we can't. (That somebody being you, just now.) This last one wasn't intentional obviously. But now it counts because I said so.

And a joke doesn't suddenly lose it's "joke" status just because people don't find it funny. It was most likely intended as a joke, and intention is what matters. Besides, they aren't hearing it every day. Just every time they walk in to that store.

 

[AVATAR_RAGE]

Hm, ok thanks. Thanks in particular to the guys who actually tried to explain instead of rant. As I said I was given something to write and I just wanted to understand why. Some of the reactions though have given me a lot to think about in terms of how the whole issue is perceived.

First off, Extra Credits has touched on this subject, as well as the recent girls on female characters panel from pax, so check them out if you haven't allready. I am not exactly sure by what you mean with your thread title with feminism in gaming.

I'll go and check the extra credits thing out. I think I have already seen it though. as for the feminism thing. I put it in '' because I dont really consider it feminism, I consider it more as..I suppose equality would be the right word. I don't see why a certain group of people should be put down for some reason or another. Other people though would consider this kind of complaint feminist.

Oh you meant Liberal Feminism, yeah that is slowly dying out because well women pretty much have equal rights in the west. Most feminist movements now are part of the more extremist groups that that push dominance rather than equality (at least to me anyway).

Any who video games as a medium is evolving and with that comes more and more variations in the way characters are represented (both male and female). Does that mean we should stop with all the stereotypes in games? no it doesn't. But it does mean we should dim it down every now and then to experiment and break the mould. How about a horror game with skinny guy who wears glasses or an adventure game with an overweight woman (just off the top of my head).

 

[WhySoElitist]

Okay one thing (this will probs get me in trouble with the escapist moderators) Men an women are not equal because THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. men are better at some things and women are better at others. and nobody say anything sexist like the dishes or building a shed.
Men and women work in different ways thus they are treated in different ways for everyone to be treated the same we must first all act the same. does anybody really want men and women to act the same. no. so should we be treated all the same. no.
ps. have any of the feminists who say that pay should be exactly the same for men and women ever thought of this. Women are a lot more likely (its quite significant) to get pregnant than men. this means that they are more likely to get maternity leave. which is pretty much free money. men dont get pregnant which means no leave for it and no need to change shifts and find a replacement. think about it.

 

[KAR849]

Would be funny if someone made a mod for DNF which would reverse the CTF-roles. Gearbox would probably applaud it too.

 

[Partezan]

Gaming is one of the few places where guys can still be guys, but now feminism is reaching into it as well and fucking it up. If you want to be a female gamer then great, but deal with the world your in instead of trying to change it and make it pathetic and PC like everything else feminists have touched

 

[Not George Carlin]

If by people you mean 12 year-olds [the majority] who don't have girlfriends/wives/brains.

 

[DTWolfwood]

Because women are still just a tiny portion of the hardcore gaming market. the gaming industry doesn't cater to the niche market anymore. which is so sad

 

[silasbufu]

I'm not against feminism in gaming. I'm against unprovoked feminism as a whole. I said unprovoked because, I'll admit some men can really push it to the edge with misoginism and jokes.

 

[Arkzism]

it bugs me a bit, but i am feminist (gasp a rare male feminist) but most of the time it makes me shake my head and sigh just like homophobia in gaming as well

 

[Hydro14]

These points may have already been made but I have coursework to do and can't read 13 pages right now.

Firstly; to those who have commented that these problems are the signs of a developing media type and should therefore be treated with some leniency, yes, the games industry is still young, but the only way it'll change is as a result of pressure. The criticism being offered is a necessary force to move video games forward. Criticism is a means of improvement from the outside.

Secondly, marketers create slogans and material to sell a product. They play to the details that were already there. Assuming that the marketing is sexist (whether or not making a joke at the expense of a group of people actually constitutes any kind of discrimination against them is an open debate that I'm not going to get mired in right now), in a society that didn't find it amusing the marketing would fail. Advertisement should really be seen more as a mirror of society than a shaping force. Don't break the mirror just because you don't like what you see; it's bad luck.

 

[TerraRey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Men%27s_Day whoops :3 Come on guys I typed 'Mens Day' into google you didn't even do that?

That is not celebrated or even advertised as much as the chick version.

Plus! Women get Valentines day. What do men get? As much as we may wish it, steak and blowjob day is not celebrated or marketed nearly as much as V-day. Could make for some interesting decorations though...

You're actually only talking for sure about the American version of Valentine's day. I know at the very least in Japan women are the ones who give out chocolates and such on Valentines Day, while Men have basically the same day but instead of being a second Valentines Day it's called White Day (though in truth it's supposed to be more expensive than the girls chocolates.)

 

[priestswearseatbelts]

it bugs me a bit, but i am feminist (gasp a rare male feminist) but most of the time it makes me shake my head and sigh just like homophobia in gaming as well

Just to clarify. Please tell me you mean homophobia amongst the gamers and not the published content.

If it is the later I would like a good few examples. If it's the former.... anonymity really does bring the monsters out of their caves.

 

[KiraTaureLor]

This may have been discussed before but a search of the forums didn't bring up anything that I was looking for so...

I've been asked to write about sexism in gaming and I know it's a subject that has been done to death. I want to make it as fair an argument as possible. As a girl you can probably figure out which side of the debate I'm on but I do want to know why people are so vocal AGAINST people speaking up against sexist slogans in advertising and reinforcing white male gamer stereotypes.

For example, the recent game station advertising campaign saying their pre-owned games were cheaper than your girlfriend. When people complained that it was offensive the minority of gamers told them to shut up and get over it. So..why are people so against gaming becoming more gender neutral and accepting of female, child and elderly gamers.

I'm not slating it, I would just like to understand the mindset a bit better to at least try and make this piece of writing fairer.

The reason women are sensitive about sexist jokes is because once it was a REALITY, just like black people are sensitive about the N word, and so on, and so on.

I live in Canada, and there are equal gender rights, so I don't take sexism seriously, some people don't, and it does offend them.

women are the minority in the gaming universe, and will be for a while.

There are two meanings that are being concluded for the "pre-owned game is cheaper than your girlfriend" Most women are thinking of the second interpretation.
1. It either means that your girlfriend likes expensive gifts
2. Or that your girlfriend is a prostitute/object.

 

[mirasiel]

I can only speak for myself, but it's just I'm honestly sick to death of hearing about it; Ever since primary school I've had it spewed at me about how the "white man" held down other races and how men in general held down women and frankly after 30 years I've just had it with it.

Yeah you might have a point, but you've belabored the point so much I just don't care anymore, if anything I want to oppose you not because of any real objection on the merits, but just because you've pissed me off.

Im sorry that reality and history hurt your feelings, would you like a cookie to make you feel better?

 

[pearcinator]

Ok heres what I think is happening...

The world is currently going under a paradigm shoft with more and more women being given controlling rights for many things (e.g. politicians, teachers, book publishers etc.) and as such they have decided to abuse (take advantage of at least) their newfound powers to ***** about things they dont control yet.

One of those things they dont control is the video game audience which still has very male-centred audience...because of how its controlled by men they show male desires (big boobs, sexy ladies, action and violence) and the women in the controlling positions out there have decided to have a little ***** about how its 'sexist' and creates an 'unrealistic perception of beauty'.

I dont like it (especially as I am trying to become a primary teacher which has a male-to-female ratio of about 1:10 and on my last prac I was with some queen dragon who breathed fire). Men should still be in charge, women want everything to be perfect but don't understand that they can't change the world anymore than men. As soon as they realise that no matter how much bitching they do...men will come back and put them in their place, not like the 1950's when women were basically slaves, but to a time where both men and women worked together and everybody does their own bit to keep the world safe.

Thats just my opinion though (probably a bit biased because of my disasterous prac) I know not all women are fire-breathing dragons who believe men are inferior, but those women with the controlling rights certainly are and if not, soon will be.