Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[DeathWyrmNexus]

As for games with female leads, there are many more games in which the protagonist can be either a man or a woman. That's something that has existed for a long time, and if that's not a step toward equality, I don't know what is. And consider now, why are all the antagonists, the enemies, the bad GUYS always guys? I can't think of many games in which you go off to kill an evil princess. So, why is it okay that women protagonists get to kill male antagonists? Shouldn't we petition for more women to be included in games full-stop? As protagonists, and their evil opposites. Otherwise we are still not achieving equality. We merely reach a point at which women are content, but men begin to wonder.

As for Cooking Mama, the four women I know who own the game are women in their 20's to 30's. The game seems to suit all women who like cooking. If someone then chooses to buy that for their daughter, and enforce a gender-role in their child, then I don't see the problem. As long as the child is happy playing with barbiedolls and cooking mama. Which a lot of little girls are. But when they grow up and realise that they want something different, they don't actually receive very different treatment from any other girl in their teens. Simply because teenage girls are bitches. They don't like anyone, especially not other teenage girls. For boys, the teenage years are a very similar ordeal. But the time you spend as a teenager is always going to be an awkward time of spots, emerging pubic hairs and a general confusion about your own sex and sexuality. Games like FIFA or Cooking Mama are not making it worse. Nor are they making it simpler.

In reference to the posters, you said that if they wanted equality they should stick women on posters. I would find the quote, but you were right in saying that I am lazy. So I will not. You can always review your writing yourself.

And please do specify what counts as wrongful. You say you want women in videogames, but I wonder if you want women, or if you want YOU. There ARE women in videogames. They are apparently just not good enough for other women, though. Likely because they're too thin, or too pretty. Not many chicks in videogames are truly badass, admittedly. But I don't think a lot of protagonists are badass without a player behind them. So, as much as women already exist, other women, real women, complain about them being objectified or oversexed. So what is "wrongful" and how can women be portrayed as "right" if they are not allowed to be sexy side-kicks, raunchy love interests, or evil bosses?

Heh, glad we seem to be thinking along the same vein. *points above* I've always found it odd that I can murder an entire continent of menfolk but a woman in a bikini is sexist. That said, I would like to see or better yet, play a decent female villain.

 

[Kashrlyyk]

...
Complaining about fems being scantily clad: its called marketing, get used to it.

For me, male, this is the biggest annoyance in video games right next to unfair encounter/mission design. It breaks the all-important "willing suspension of disbelieve" if a female foot soldier runs into battle in a short skirt, high heels and a stomach-free top in a medieval setting.

 

[Harry Mason]

I do want to know why people are so vocal AGAINST people speaking up against sexist slogans in advertising and reinforcing white male gamer stereotypes.

I've done some college papers on this, and my answer is a very unpopular one.

It's because it is increasingly becoming a "woman's world." Women are rising so far so fast up the ranks of society, that it has created a tremendous backlash. Regardless of whether anyone wants to hear it, woman are picking up higher paying jobs, getting promoted at an insane rate, and are VASTLY more likely to earn a college degree. Those aren't "Feminazi" speculations. Those are census results.

This doesn't mean that women are superior in ANY form or fashion. Thinking that would be equally as preposterous as thinking that men are superior. It just means that there is a natural shifting of tides. It's appropriate and healthy.

The Female Ego has been empowered by the society around it, and it has found a nice place to start moving up. This puts the Male Ego in a weird position. It doesn't have its exclusivity of purpose anymore. What it means to be a man in the modern world has become hazy.

We used to be breadwinners, protectors, leaders... Now we are sharing those positions with women. Where does that put us? How is the modern man defined? If you look at ancient paintings, men are strong and courageous, depicted holding the heads of fallen enemies or changing the thought processes of human kind while wearing the philosopher's robes. Now, there are entire art galleries of men doing self portraits depicting broken dark, fragile creatures. Even men who are enthusiastic about women having equal rights are left with a big fat "Well, what the fuck do I do now?"

So there is this struggle to keep something, ANYTHING sacred and exclusive to men. This is not a problem inherent to video game culture at all. There are genres of film, schools of literature, and entire workplace environments that have closed their doors to women for fear of having the only things that are "sacred" anymore compromised. The face of Gaming is changing, and it's creating a sexist backlash.

Gaming is a clubhouse, and it residents are putting "NO GIRLZ ALLOWED" signs on the front because they realize, in some basic, deep way, that soon they will hit puberty and they will WANT girls in their clubhouse. And that's scary because, where will the boys hang out then?

I truly believe that Gaming is changing, for better or for worse, into an equal rights media. It's having natural growing pains.

As for how manhood is defined? For me personally, Garrison Keillor put it best...

"Men don't want to rule the world. We want to be artists and hobos. Let women run everything, just let me have my motorcycle."

I'm content to define my own masculinity. Having powerful women around doesn't take that away, it makes it more AWESOME. My particular idea of what being a man means mostly revolves around guitars, huge shotguns, poetry, and the culinary arts.

Now go ahead and tear me apart for talking for too long and being an evil feminist.
*sigh*

 

[WhisperingShadows]

As it's no doubt been said before, like any group, the extremists get in the way. There's a heavy stereotype hanging about now because of those idiots who run around and scream their heads off at the stupid things, like difference in clothing of genders, for example.

This issue does need sorting out, no question about that. We can't ignore it and hope it'll go away because it just won't. And, for the love of God, if you must blather away about this subject, please don't use the "women have had it so hard" or some bull like that. Our gender, and male gender, have had hard times but that's no excuse to expect special treatment either way.

If we want equality, we have to accept being equal, though it's going to take time.

EDIT: The post above pretty much explains it.

 

[WestMountain]

Why are people against an ideology who doesn't stand for equality anymore but making the female get more benefits than the male.

/Fixed

We don't need any more feminism, there is already much in other things.

 

[SilverUchiha]

I can think of a few reasons.

1. Have you ever been attacked by an extremist feminist? It will leave a negative connotation on the word.

2. Companies are still selling to 13 year old boys

3. Stereotypes make things easier and thus cheaper for the companies

4."It is not that i support sexism, I just don't like things that are different"

5. People write what they know a white male programmer may have issues writing a female Turkish woman.

6. Case of we won't fix it till it is broken syndrome. Until gamers demand it we will only see small changes.

An amendment to the first one, "Ever dated an extreme feminist or someone who described themselves as such?" Same story there. Also... isn't "female turkish woman rather redundant? Or are there female turkish men that I'm not aware of? XD

OT: I'm not against feminism if it is only to the point of equality and nothing more. But take it to an extreme and it becomes a huge pain in the ass. Not to mention you can just throw feminist ideas into just any game. The right game has to be made before one can pull of such "controversial" ideas. A bad game with iffy ideas leads to ruin. But a game designed to support such an idea would work tremendously.

 

[Jaded Scribe]

I'm against a lot of the feminist propaganda. I think the feminist movement does a lot more harm than good. It bombards women with the idea that the media is the cause of their self-image issues, causing women to project those issues onto the media rather than confronting the real reasons for their insecurities.

Many of the female characters in games may be over-sexualized, but most of these over-sexualized characters can also kick a great deal of ass. There's a humor to their over-sexualization that turns them into paraodies, and the fact that they can kick your ass in 3" spikes makes them a lot of fun to play with. As a woman, I love playing games where I'm adventuring in super-skimpy outfits. I know I will never look that way in real life, but for a little bit, I can feel like the super-sexy badass.

Sadly, this is causing harm to women with self-image issues because we've been programmed for years to blame the media to the point it's become an epidemic.

 

[le picklez]

This may have been discussed before but a search of the forums didn't bring up anything that I was looking for so...

I've been asked to write about sexism in gaming and I know it's a subject that has been done to death. I want to make it as fair an argument as possible. As a girl you can probably figure out which side of the debate I'm on but I do want to know why people are so vocal AGAINST people speaking up against sexist slogans in advertising and reinforcing white male gamer stereotypes.

For example, the recent gamestation advertising campaign saying their pre-owned games were cheaper than your girlfriend. When people complained that it was offensive the minority of gamers told them to shut up and get over it. So..why are people so against gaming becoming more gender neutral and accepting of female, child and elderly gamers.

I'm not slating it, I would just like to understand the mindset a bit better to at least try and make this piece of writing fairer.

In fighting games, every guy is muscular and perfectly sculpted, and every girl is skinny and has gigantic breasts. Also known as a "perfect body" for the respective gender. Guys in games always act like they are "supposed to" IRL and so do girls. However, feminists seem to forget guys are pressured by society due to the fact that "nerds" and "emos" are generally looked down upon as inferior and ignored, due to not being physically strong and having emotions.

 

[mirasiel]

I can only speak for myself, but it's just I'm honestly sick to death of hearing about it; Ever since primary school I've had it spewed at me about how the "white man" held down other races and how men in general held down women and frankly after 30 years I've just had it with it.

Yeah you might have a point, but you've belabored the point so much I just don't care anymore, if anything I want to oppose you not because of any real objection on the merits, but just because you've pissed me off.

Im sorry that reality and history hurt your feelings, would you like a cookie to make you feel better?

Oh diddums did someone not like hearing the truth?

Yes, you.

I'm still sorry that history has hurt your feelings, I'll be sure and get someone to re-write all that nasty truth out.

History? Hah! It's already being written to suit the current generation, no longer is the context looked at, no now it's written so that children are forced to listen to how "ignorant" our forbears were, and how "enlightened" we are in comparison.

Don't talk to me about history fool! I know far more about the subject then you could ever dream to understand.

So go cry in a corner or something and sob about how unfair life is in nations where people of all genders and races are treated equal under the law. Sob about how horrible it is, and forget how much the world has changed in a single century, yes do forget that and just keep whining like a little brat about how you didn't get a cherry ontop of your cake.

Fool! The world is full of whining fools!

Ah so now you are not annoyed by the truth of history but instead you want to pretend that its all wrong?

That is an odd little rant and ball of assumptions you seem to have there, might I suggest you talk to someone about?

On topic its odd to see how much self-entitlement and borderline misogyny just the thought of females brings out on these usually very liberal forums.

 

[Haydyn]

Now, when it comes to using women's sex appeal to sell games, yes, it does happen all too often, and it is wrong, but the male characters are going through a similar treatment. What do you think we guys think when we see someone like Kratos walking around shirtless and ripped killing people? We idolize those kinds of bodies, and compare them to our own. We try to hit the gym more and go through tons of protein mix, but we are never going to meet our own expectations because character designers can design characters to be as ripped as possible, without going through years of weightlifting.

I'm thinking you might not be a feminist so much as a giant girl... Come on dude, no one really wants to look like a retarded neanderthal & the few people who do are in dire need of either counceling or a serious reality check. Thats why theres quite a few of us wanting the entire industry to grow the fuck up & just for the recorded, the most buff male character in my book shelf of games is the Prince from that last Prince of Persia game. Aint no Gears of War style games in my collection.

I'm a giant girl for believing men can be self conscious about their muscle mass? I see nothing wrong with that logic. Duke Nukem would be a better example. And as long as we are nit picking, your last sentence consists of a double neagtive, sunshine.

 

[themerrygambit]

I think the main issue is that people don't like being told what they can and can't do or say. People realish in freedom. The problem with feminism is that they focus on slandering men and making men out to be evil domineering assholes when the plain fact of the matter is that most of us are not.

What feminism should focus on is showing women of strength and simply fighting for positive things that both men and women can get behind them on. Being a guy, if you insult me to my face then ask me for my help I'm going to be a little less inclined to help you. But if you present your case in such a way that is more factual and positive then I'm going to listen.

For instance this is not a good way to prove your point:
"Disney misses the point entirely destroying Miss Marple and "remaking" it for a younger hipper generation. HOW BUT A FLIPPING GENERATION WITH SOME RESPECT FOR ITS ELDERS. THAT'S THE POINT OF MISS MARPLE. SHE'S AN OLDER WOMAN WHO'D REALLY SMART AND GOOD AT FOILING CROOKS! FOR F@#K'S SAKE."

This person describes themselves as a feminist fighting for women's rights but her post just sounds like a screaming little Troll insulting the younger generation who is going to grow up to be the future movie makers of tomorrow... This doesn't help. One could even go so far as to say that this person is overly sensitive and needs to chill out a bit.

Presented in a less emotional and more intelligent manner she might have made a convincing argument.

The other thing about modern "feminism" is that they never acknowledge the strides they have made. This is certainly not the generation of the 1920s where women couldn't even vote or get a job. What Feminists need to focus on is putting out more positive roll models that younger women can look up to and strive to be and who men would like as well.

I mean if you ask most guys many of us love Tomboys who are into and can do the same things we do. I love a girl who can fish and hunt and do all the same things I can do because it means we can share experiences together and do more together. The last thing I want to do is put a girl like that down.


Another thing that feminists tend to forget is that no matter how much you strive for men and women to be "equal" you never will be. There are scientific, physical, mental, and emotional differences between men and women that will never change regardless of what social norms are in play.

You should relish in those differences and use them. For instance how many times can a guy go in a bar and have girls buy them drinks? Almost never because that just doesn't happen. Yet a girl walks into a bar and chances are good a guy will buy her a drink just so he can strike up a conversation. Girls can get into places that guys can't simply on their looks and girls can use their feminine charms to win a number of battles and arguments.

Is that blatantly using their sex appeal to get their way? Yes, yes it is. But the point is Men can't do that... the majority can't anyway and women should take advantage of that. If feminists focused on promoting all of their strengths including the "sexist" ones... they'd be ruling the world within a decade.

The problem is they are focusing to much on bashing men to do so.

Women should focus on outperforming men and pushing their strengths, because lets face it results don't lie. If you want to be treated "equal" in a particular field than you have to rise up to the challenge and prove that you can do it just as well as a man. But don't do it insulting men the whole time your doing it. Instead flash us that charming little feminine smile right before you blow us out of the water

 

[Xanadu84]

I think a big part is Political Correctness. You have to remember that PC is largely an invention of people who are angry about other people calling them dicks when they act like dicks. Because everyone loves having the opportunity to act like a dick, but no one likes being called out on it, the hate for PC thrives, and it is entirely possible for both sides of an argument to accuse the other of being PC, another phrase for, "A thing I don't like". Feminism is a great example of asking for respect, which is considered the unacceptable intervention of the PC thought police. When it is possible to phrase a feminist perspective as censorship in a medium that gets threatened by censorship a lot, people start a negative backlash.People will mindlessly defend "freedom", without asking if maybe there opponent is just asking if this freedom is worth the effort to express in the first place.

Real, overbearing feminazis certainly don't help matters, and they do exist, but they are a hell of a lot rarer then many people will want to admit.

 

[Ericb]

I've done some college papers on this, and my answer is a very unpopular one.(...)

I found your point of view very enlightened.

Isn't it said that your view is unpopular simply because you don't feel threatened by this paradigm shift?

And to others, to say that feminism (in its proper and very existing meaning) isn't necessary while seeing how women are treated around the planet is to willingly wear a blindfold.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I liked the response David Gaider wrote about DA2 neglecting the "straight male gamer" which everyone assumes is 99% of the gaming community. Out of my extremely close friend group of gamers, which consists of six people, only one of us is a " typical straight male." Stereotypes like these aren't as true as they once were. And not every female character is over-sexed in games. Plus, how many male game protagonists are glasses-wearing, unattractive, overweight nerds? Male characters are just as idealized in games as females. But I don't hear anyone griping over Kratos' eight-pack.

not to rain on your parade..but out of all the gamers i know, (not the casual "i play wii once a month" people, considering thats everyone) i would say a good 65 out of every 80 gamers are white straight males, i know of two people who i would consider gamers who are a white female and a black guy and the rest are azians (har har, not that hard to figure that one out)

OT: ever met an extreme feminazi?

if you have, then case and point. otherwise..can't argue for equality. even though it is there alot of the time.

 

[icaritos]

Because sadly, we are the vast minority when it comes to video games (at least games that aren't the Sims or casual games). When it comes to advertising, the industry is still conventionally geared towards young adult men, even though female gamers like myself enjoy the exact same games with the same amount of gore and violence as they do.

Unfortunately.

On a side note, I don't understand the whole mentality that girls shouldn't like violent video games... all my guy friends LOVE the fact that I can game with them, and even though a lot of girls think I'm a nerd, others think it's cool that I'm into them. If I was a guy I'd totally want a girl that shared in my hobbies...

How is it unfortunate, they are simply trying to target the largest market. I honestly don't think they have some anti-female agenda, just want to maximize their sales and profits.

Let's try not to see a conspiracy in every corner -.-

 

[kathleenb]

No. Fuck that. You can't have a day celebrating women, while not having a day celebrating men and then pretend you're working for equality. That's making it less equal.

You want a day celebrating your masculinity? How about every single fucking day? Nearly all high offices in government and corporations (in America, at least) are held by men. Men are getting 99% of new jobs during this 'recovery'. A woman's chances of being raped or sexually abused in America are AT LEAST 1 in 6, probably more due to under reporting. The chances for a man getting the same? Over 1 in 24 - admittedly, this is probably also very low due to under reporting, but look at the difference. Women are regularly degraded in popular culture, particularly some aspects of music. Most domestic violence is against women. Want to know when a woman is most likely to be murdered? When she's pregnant.

Every. Single. Day. is a fucking celebration of manhood. Trying to reclaim one day for women's history, art, whatever does nothing to dent your fucking masculine privilege.

EDIT: tl;dr: Want a celebration of men and their manliness? Try Super Bowl Sunday.

 

[Torrasque]

...
Complaining about fems being scantily clad: its called marketing, get used to it.

For me, male, this is the biggest annoyance in video games right next to unfair encounter/mission design. It breaks the all-important "willing suspension of disbelieve" if a female foot soldier runs into battle in a short skirt, high heels and a stomach-free top in a medieval setting.

This is one of the rules of armor.
For guys, the cooler it looks, and the more it protects = the more it protects.
For fems, the sexier it looks, and the less it protects = the more it protects.
This applies to anime, manga, games, and movies (probably applies to books, but hard to visualize in most cases)

Like I said, sex sells, and it would be stupid of them to not go with that

 

[kathleenb]

Oh diddums did someone not like hearing the truth?

The problem is that women have equality under the law now, people of different skin colours have equality under the law now, the cultural equality will come in time, they've just to wait for the old bigots to die off, so will they PLEASE SHUT UP ABOUT IT.

I mean honestly there is only so much whining one can take before you just want to oppose someone out of pure spite.

I'm so sorry you find history so hard to deal with. Maybe the Cherokee should just shut up about the Trail of Tears - after all, it annoys your precious feelings to be reminded of what was done by your country. Hey, and union activists should just shut their traps about the Triangle Shirtwaist fire - who cares if a hundred mostly immigrant women were bolted inside a death trap to make sure they couldn't take a break? And we should just forget the whole 'ripping people out of their homelands and forcing them to work as another human being's PROPERTY' because your poor little feefees were hurt. Got it.

 

[Harry Mason]

Want a celebration of men and their manliness? Try Super Bowl Sunday.

Can I have a different one? Like "Metal Gear Solid is fucking awesome" Sunday, or "Let's watch zombie movies" Sunday or "Blast Heavy Metal out of your car windows" Sunday or "Learn to cook a tasty eggplant parmesan" Sunday? Big sweaty dudes dogpiling has limited appeal for some...

Seriously, though, you're right. I just don't like being defined by things that are so BORING.

I've done some college papers on this, and my answer is a very unpopular one.(...)

I found your point of view very enlightened.

Isn't it said that your view is unpopular simply because you don't feel threatened by this paradigm shift?

And to others, to say that feminism (in its proper and very existing meaning) isn't necessary while seeing how women are treated around the planet is to willingly wear a blindfold.

Goodness. I was expecting an immediate flood of hate.

Thanks for agreeing with me. And I'm not saying that because I like to have my ego stroked (which, I do, but that's... Beside the point...), I'm saying that because if more people saw feminism by its DEFINITION and not its STEREOTYPE, more people could back up equal rights, and as a consequence we would have a slightly less despicable society. You know, with less forced Burka wearing and plaid clad housewives and more sanctioned equal pay...

Honestly, I think the manliest thing a dude can do is be at peace with the recent paradigm shift. It means they aren't threatened and they don't feel a need to lash out, because they are secure in themselves.