Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[angelsmash]

Put aside my own experience and preferences to accept some rather blatant stereotyping and generalising? Why? Because if I bring even a modicum of my personal experience and preference to bear it'll show the falsity of your claims? I refuse to accept them, sorry. Out of curiosity, how many women have you asked to get that information? As a female gamer myself, and one who speaks to a fair number of others, we'd love to have female protagonists who are strong, run in weapons-blazing and generally behave in a manner which you would likely view as traditionally female. Ever seen Firefly or Serenity? Zoe from that is fucking awesome. I would love to play a character like her in a game some time. She is every inch the army sergeant while at the same time being a fleshed out, human character who plans to have a fuller family than just her husband Wash.

Just because someone identified as female does not behave as tradition demands of her gender, it does not make her any less female. Nor does it make her less identifiable to women any more than the gun-toting machismo of Male Character X is to the male players.

I suspect that any extensive polling of female gamers would also show a desire for female protagonists. Just as we choose female skins/characters in RPGs we'll go for the main characters too.

I'm not saying female gamers don't want a girly Duke Nukem, I'm saying women full stop don't. As female gamers (who aren't, I think we can all agree, playing Farmville or Tetris) are a very small subset of the female half of the population, this means they're very much in the minority.

As an aside, most girls are far weaker than even the most milquetoast-ish average man. This is why in the Marines [http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marines/a/cft.htm], even a 46+ man has to meet a standard higher than that of the strongest, youngest, most physically fit women. Note that for the can lifts, the lowest male standard is more than twice that of the women's highest.

This is just biology. There's nothing controvertible or even arguable when it comes to a woman's capacity to serve in the military to an equal degree as a man. They cannot.

 

[CarlMin]

Conservative traditionalists are against feminism, animal rights, homosexuality and they might start to feel a bit uneasy when anti-racist movements comes into play.

Are we seeing a pattern here?

 

[Pist0l 07]

Of what I know of you, your a troll so I won't be answering to you any more than this. I was trying to explain to that guy that there are ways I could make an argument more serious but I don't want to mostly becuase of trolls like you who actually care about 'points' /pat.

You did open the door by mentioning it. But hey, if you can make a more serious argument then by all means make it. Most of this thread has become about what people think feminism is rather then how to deal with gender equality and gender diversity in games and in life.

 

[angelsmash]

Your problem is you pick and choose. You said earlyer that most of the recovery jobs were given to men, yet you ignore that most of the people laid off were men. Not out of descrimination but because men more frequently choose jobs in the manufacturing sector than women.
You also speak of the horrors happening around the world where women are sold as slaves, and it is horrible, yet women dont have a monopoly on travesties, our history is quite horrible. besides i only ever see it pulled out as some sort of trump card in these arguments that get started when a woman starts whining that insult comedy offends her, womens day celebrations often follow the lead of radicals pointing to the male pivelage checklist. heck, consider what makes headlines.

You're being too reasonable, friend. Not only are most lay-offs male, most homeless are, too. Almost all of the millions stuffed into prisons are men (and you could make the argument they're raped far, far more often).

Feminists have always suffered from the apex fallacy: they see kings, gangsters and bigwigs living it up and blithely assume that must be the common male experience (note, ladies: this is why most men laugh when you try so earnestly to teach them about the "male privilege checklist"). What they forget is that most men are not kings, gangsters or bigwigs, that most men work a great deal to survive, spend more time alone, commit suicide more often, are killed in more wars and industrial accidents, suffer worse from divorce and have less sex than women. Life as a woman has always looked like a cakewalk to me.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Why can't you guys just leave us alone we just want to play games ffs not have to be faced with 10000000 girl gamer threads everytime we come on here. It's depressing and just makes us feel left out.

 

[iseko]

True feminists wouldn't care about crap like this. It's a joke and if you honestly care about stuff like this? You're a joke too.

Btw, I think all people are equal no matter gender or skin color. And my mom's a feminist. She laughed about it.

 

[Flytch]

I've no idea. I think that the people perpetrating the white male gamer stereotype is the media. My girlfriend is an equally hardcore gamer as me.

 

[kurupt87]

You're being too reasonable, friend. Not only are most lay-offs male, most homeless are, too. Almost all of the millions stuffed into prisons are men (and you could make the argument they're raped far, far more often).

Feminists have always suffered from the apex fallacy: they see kings, gangsters and bigwigs living it up and blithely assume that must be the common male experience (note, ladies: this is why most men laugh when you try so earnestly to teach them about the "male privilege checklist"). What they forget is that most men are not kings, gangsters or bigwigs, that most men work a great deal to survive, spend more time alone, commit suicide more often, are killed in more wars and industrial accidents, suffer worse from divorce and have less sex than women. Life as a woman has always looked like a cakewalk to me.

This, this so hard it's fucking infuriating.

 

[blank0000]

I think your asking the wrong question.


critically I think everyone is for gaming moving toward a more feminist or gender neutral area. When talking about games alone, critics and fans generally respond positively toward a gender neutral or feminist approach as it shows modern games being made are maturing.


game ADVERTISEMENT is very different. Those trying to create an image that sells will often use things that strike up controversy because they are more memorable. You're mention of the gamestop ad for example. I never saw it, however I know about it because of the controversy it struck up.


I think what your talking about has to do with escapism discussed as comedy. Something that is seen A LOT in multi-player gaming.

Have you ever played an online game were someone will chim in with a racist or hurtful comment? In my experience when this happens it is said in a way to be played off as a joke. IF they are called on it by another player they will often attempt to laugh off their actions. I think this spills into game icons and advertisement.

Think of ad campaigns such as Bulletstorm, Dead space 2, and the gamestop ad. The approach these ads take makes the same sort of "joke". Attempting to appeal to the supposedly light-hear-ted anything goes mentality of the online world. I can imagine a company wanting to be seen in this sort of way, so they can have that same light-hearted appeal. I think its a damned shame. IT reflects poorly on everyone.

 

[BRex21]

Your problem is you pick and choose. You said earlyer that most of the recovery jobs were given to men, yet you ignore that most of the people laid off were men. Not out of descrimination but because men more frequently choose jobs in the manufacturing sector than women.
You also speak of the horrors happening around the world where women are sold as slaves, and it is horrible, yet women dont have a monopoly on travesties, our history is quite horrible. besides i only ever see it pulled out as some sort of trump card in these arguments that get started when a woman starts whining that insult comedy offends her, womens day celebrations often follow the lead of radicals pointing to the male pivelage checklist. heck, consider what makes headlines.

I don't have exact figures on layoffs, but the impression I've gotten is that they were pretty evenly split (because of retail job loss - most retail jobs are held by women). And I am not talking about modern slavery, horrible as it it, I'm speaking of historical slavery in America. Which was systemic oppression of entire cultures and religions based on skin color.

Have you taken a look at the male privilege checklist? Can you read it and not say that (assuming you're a guy in America) none of these things have ever applied to you, ever in your life?

Been a guy in america, and i can honestly say very few have applied to me, and some blatantly ignore reality.
As for the recession most countries reported actual numbers of around 70% men - 30% women with (71% in canada 80% in USA) and yet this does not stop feminists like Harriet Harman from saying it afftcts women more, just because 2.7% of men lost their jobs compared to 0.8% of women.

 

[Cheesepower5]

^^poster above, bigots have children too, who will grow up to be bigots. I agree that we need to have some patience, but ignoring a problem won't help it go away, and could lend it credence as being acceptable.

Anyway.

I don't think anyone in the gaming industry, or consumers as a whole, are *against* feminism. Like, if you ask them they'll be like, 'equal rights for all' etc etc.

But in practice I think a lot of devs are ignorant of what their female fans want out of a game, and there is an element of institutionalised misogyny, hence a series of recent distasteful ad campaigns.

Because their target audience is stereotyped as beings nerdy boys on the cusp of puberty (and because that's what a lot of developers once were, when introduced to gaming in their youth) and because they have a habit of catering to that audience, it's an easy rut to get stuck in and to come to think that THAT'S ALL GAMES CAN BE. Gaming needs to grow up.

Here we go again, accuse male gamers of being 'nerdy boys on the cusp of puberty', and making fun of even game devs of having been nerdy boys. I thought gaming was already nerd-culture, or did that change when I wasn't looking.

What, that's not fucking mysandrous to gang up like that on male gamers and male developers? Why do male gamers and male developers have to take all the heat for an entertainment factor you feel entitled to join in when they toiled and sweat to get the industry up and running without female guidance or support (unless you were married to a game developer, or supported the industry since its early days)? Again, I am going to reiterate an older point, don't fucking blame us, when there is enough room in the industry for you. Not as consumers (if you really feel the industry, is not up to your standards at this current point in times), but as creators, developers. We are living in a society where it's fucking easier to be female. As a male, I still feel the pressure of having balls. Oh, you like games, you little nerdy man-child. Oh, you are not into sport, you little nerdy man-child. Oh, you like anime, you little nerdy man-child.

This 'institutionalized misogny' as you call it, is not existent, or is it because not all games cater to you, hell, I don't play JRPGs because of the cutesy characters. Gaming is an escapism, and right now, it does not need to grow the fuck up.

Want it to evolve? Want it to be more accepting of you? Then suck it up, and join the damn industry, toil and sweat, just like those 'nerdy little man-childs' did once. There's enough room for all of us.

But don't you dare yap on about male gamers and developers being nerdy manliness-minus-one-mysognistic dicks.

I can yap on about whatever I like, thank you very much

But I think you missed my point: I'm saying that that's what gamers AREN'T. That's why I called it a 'stereotype', most gamers aren't nerdy pubescent boys and never were, but many people assume they are. It's a myth perpetuated by the media and the gaming industry, and does everyone involved a disservice.

A 2009 ESA survey showed that 75% of gamers are over 18, and 25% are over 50. But who is EA's 'You Mom Hates Dead Space 2' ad aimed at? Teenage boys, to the exclusion of all others.

It also says that the ratio of male to female gamers is 3:2. So for every 10 gamers, 4 are female. But who is Gamestation's 'Cheaper than your girlfriend' ad aimed at? Teenage boys, to the exclusion of all others.

How many female game developers are there, compared to male? Not many, and none that I can immediately name. [EDIT] I just looked it up. According to a 2005 IGDA study only 11.5% of people in the Game Development industry are female, and most of them are in HR. 95% of programmers are male [/EDIT]

Saying the gaming industry doesn't have a problem with sexism is like saying the FA doesn't have a problem with homosexuality.

And I think it's very possible for a game to be escapist, fun, and popular without having to regress your mind to that of a hormonal high-school boy. This is a very narrow demographic and is overly represented in mainstream gaming.

Okay, normally I don't touch this subject with a 60-foot pole(I'm really not too informed on it, and don't have strong feelings to either side) but I find it insulting that you say a high-school aged male is a regressed mind-set.

Hell yeah, some of them, I deal with them every day. But "male age 14-18" isn't synonymous with "stupid."

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

You want a female character? Okay fine. You want one with flaws and strengths and a believable personality, who at the end of the day is just as useful as your male characters? Sure, go ahead!

... that's exactly what I (and I'm guessing like 99% of the women on this thread) want.

The problem is, the AAA game industry keeps not delivering. One or two companies do it well, but the rest just let it slide. And it sucks.

Female characters with good writing that are as good as male characters. That's it. Is that really so much to ask?

And, screaming matches aside, that's really all the OP asked in the first place - why do we get so much hate for just wanting more female characters in AAA games? It's not like we want to get rid of the guy characters - give us both.

 

[BRex21]

This is an example of femenists LITERALLY saying that men hitting women is a problem that we need to stop men from hitting women and only men from hitting women. I work on campus in a lab with 7 other people and i am the only one who has to go to mandatory seminars on how no means no, and how i have to controll my masculine urges to rape every woman i see. I am also the only person in the office to be openly criticised for disliking that i was groped while getting coffee. Since im a man i was supposed to like it, or be gay.

Okay, you have a perfect example of how the patriarchy hurts men, too. You find the concept that you can't control yourself around a woman to be offensive, yes? And yet this line of logic also tells women that since men are unable to control their dicks, it's our responsibility to control men's reactions to us. So how about instead of bitching, talk to whoever does these seminars. Talk to the anti rape group on campus (I can almost guarantee there is one) and find out how you can help them.

Yet if it was mandatory or even OPTIONAL for women to attend a course on how to avoid rape, in virtually any way it would be victim blaming.

Yes, yes it would be victim blaming. It is not my responsibility to control the reactions of others to me. The blame for rape rests solely with the rapist. Period.

If i were to physically stop a woman from feeling my abdomen in public it would be assault

It would only be assault if you used more force then necessary to remove her hand.

I actually have, and discussed issues with the course, and about the possibility of including women in it as well as some form of discussion as opposed to being yelled at for 2 hours a year about why im a rapist.
I also got shot down when i proposed drug testing card education, which was shot down in our highshools a few years ago, the actual presence of these testing kits is largely unknown to the public as is the systems for determining if they are effective. Hell knowing they are out there would probably deter potential rapists but the lid is shut because its victim blaming. I know alcohol is still the most common date rape drug, but unless you actually pass out or lose virtually all your senses you should still be responsible for your actions, of course call me sexist for having little sympathy for a woman who gets drunk and takes a man home. And just for a minute, think about how often women go above "necesarry" force if a man were to touch them, but i would be willing to bet that she could get an assault charge if i pushed her away from me, even without the force to cause any injury.

 

[Pist0l 07]

... that's exactly what I (and I'm guessing like 99% of the women on this thread) want.

The problem is, the AAA game industry keeps not delivering. One or two companies do it well, but the rest just let it slide. And it sucks.

Female characters with good writing that are as good as male characters. That's it. Is that really so much to ask?

And, screaming matches aside, that's really all the OP asked in the first place - why do we get so much hate for just wanting more female characters in AAA games? It's not like we want to get rid of the guy characters - give us both.

Thats definetly not what the OP was asking about, and certinaly not the reason from all the arguments. As for the AAA gaming industry, I don't think that they are specificly failing to deliver well written female characters while having amazingly written male counterparts. The AAA games industry does a pretty subpar job in making good, believable characters in general. I think if you asked people they wouldn't be any more opposed to having well written female protagonist then a male one, the screaming matches are for an different issue.

 

[agrajagthetesty]

Brick shithouses do not feature prominently in games because developers are trying to appeal to a female audience or believe that they are something women like. Instead, the brick shithouse is perceived (perceived, mind you; I'm not saying that this perception is necessarily accurate) as something that men like. Therefore, women are still "hard done by", as you put it, because they are still being marginalised by the marketing and content of games.

Hahahahaha. Another woman telling men what they want. Men do not want to play brick shithouses all the time. Have you actually thought that you may benefit from listening to what men say they want, rather then telling them what they want? Developers keep on using the brick shithouse model because they, like most feminists have also failed to grow the fuck up. Like i said the entire industry needs to grow up. But that doesn't make it a gender based problem, its just a problem... fullstop.

Please try reading posts before you reply to them in future; it tends to help.

Did you not see where I deliberately emphasised that "men like brick shithouses" is only a perception held by game developers? Go back and read my post again, please. I've gone ahead and bolded the relevant part.

What I said, right from the beginning, is that developers believe men like the brick shithouse, thus they create them in an attempt to market to men. I'm not telling you what you want, it's the developers who do that. (The vast majority of whom are men. Go figure.)

EDIT: Fixed html.