Why are people so against 'feminism' in gaming?

[SinisterGehe]

We don't need feminism in gaming, another front crying about "their rights" and how they are offended.
We need equality in gaming, in a situation in which everyone is equal, has no right to be offended or to demand anything.

I am generally sick of people who are crying that they are offended because of small things (I mean like really minor things example, swearing). And when I once and rarely have a real reason to be and state it I get told to "fuck off and live with it".


And why people are always crying about womens rights or the rights of the minorities. How about when majority's rights get shunned? We are just told to shut up? We can not achieve equality by giving out special rights to everyone, we must bring everyone to the same line as much as we can. But that is just dream for my utopia.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Thats definetly not what the OP was asking about, and certinaly not the reason from all the arguments.

The first thing the OP asks, before talking about the offensive ads. Most feminist complaints about gaming relate to a lack of good female characters.

As for the AAA gaming industry, I don't think that they are specificly failing to deliver well written female characters while having amazingly written male counterparts. The AAA games industry does a pretty subpar job in making good, believable characters in general.

Ha, true. I wasn't saying that the males were amazingly well written, just that there aren't that many female options. Games like Fallout 3 and pretty much anything by Bioware are the wonderful exceptions to the generally male protagonist rule. Just having two options, one male, one female, would go a long way to making women feel better about gaming. Not ever game needs to be Metroid (where you can only play a female) but more games where you can choose your male or female would be nice. And, you know, a few more ass-kicking female protagonists would be nice, too. It's not like guys wouldn't like it - I'm sure there'd be plenty of eye candy (which most of us have no problem with).

I think if you asked people they wouldn't be any more opposed to having well written female protagonist then a male one, the screaming matches are for an different issue.

Oh, I know. I just meant that the original issue is the lack of characters and the really nasty sexist ads. The hate is from all the other stuff that people connect to these issues. I was trying to remind people that the feminist gamers aren't asking for sweeping world changes - just some slow progress. More female characters would be a major win for us. And, all these arguments aside, that's really what most of us want.

At least, that's what I want. And what every other female gamer I asks wants. My sample size may be small, but it's consistency is compelling.

 

[PhiMed]

All right, you're equating feminist extremism with feminism in general. So you're an idiot.

Okay. I stand corrected.

I find it interesting that you think there is a difference. However ALL feminist propoganda has been pretty conclusively proven wrong. You show me any feminist rhetoric that hasn't been disproven or debunked & i'll find you the accurate peer reviewed information you missed in the noisy cloud of feminist anger at a self constructed strawman. Because confrimation bias is a wonderful thing... Especially when you want a big bad monster to fight.

How about this piece of rhetoric: Women in Saudi Arabia aren't allowed to expose their faces, learn to read, or drive a car. They should be allowed to do those things.

 

[Pist0l 07]

The first thing the OP asks, before talking about the offensive ads. Most feminist complaints about gaming relate to a lack of good female characters.

Mabye I missed it. I thought she just said she was writing a paper on sexism in general.

Oh, I know. I just meant that the original issue is the lack of characters and the really nasty sexist ads. The hate is from all the other stuff that people connect to these issues. I was trying to remind people that the feminist gamers aren't asking for sweeping world changes - just some slow progress. More female characters would be a major win for us. And, all these arguments aside, that's really what most of us want.

At least, that's what I want. And what every other female gamer I asks wants. My sample size may be small, but it's consistency is compelling.

Yeah, I can agree with most of that. I do have a question though, do you really think the ad was that bad? I know it was sexist, but the intent, for me, makes it seem like a lighthearted rib. I know some people saw it as saying women were cheap, but I personally thought it was saying they were expensive which I think is a little bit nicer then the latter. Even then I don't think it was asking to be taken so seriously. Would it have been better if it said "cheaper then a date"? I personaly thought the counterexamples someone posted earlier, "GOW, last longer then your boyfriend", was pretty funny. Sure it is sexist but it doesn't come of as serious because it appears to be a lighthearted rib. Similar to how friends make fun of each other, not becasue they don't like the person, because they know their friends can take the joke.

Edit: The more I think about, the wording of the ad was poor which seems to lead to the common view that it was saying women are cheap. The ad would have worked better if it said cheaper then a girlfriend rather then cheaper then your girlfrend. Or better yet, cheaper then a date, since that would work for everyone.

 

[agrajagthetesty]

Besides, would women rather have a muscular powerhouse for some eyecandy while playing a game, or just some skinny twig boy?

I don't feel like getting into an argument with you about everything else you've said, but on this topic - casting a vote for "skinny twig boy" over here. Muscular powerhouses are very unattractive to me, and every heterosexual or bisexual woman who I've asked about it has said the same. Small sample size, sure, but it's hardly a universal acclaim from women for the looks of huge beefy guys.

 

[Arkzism]

it bugs me a bit, but i am feminist (gasp a rare male feminist) but most of the time it makes me shake my head and sigh just like homophobia in gaming as well

Just to clarify. Please tell me you mean homophobia amongst the gamers and not the published content.

If it is the later I would like a good few examples. If it's the former.... anonymity really does bring the monsters out of their caves.

the former of course

 

[Arqus_Zed]

Bleh.

It's always the same issue, isn't it?

When a straight white male gets FUBAR in a video game, no one's going to give a damn. Because, hey, they were never oppressed, so it's okay to make fun of 'em.

But a sexist joke? A racist joke? DEAR GOD, YOU MONSTER!!!

Everyone is making fun of everyone, but it seems like only those who know/have known a time of lesser rights also have the right to complain. Non one gives a crap that the most stereotype villain is a neatly dressed white male, or that male protagonist often look like bodybuilders which give female games unhealthy expectations (see, I can play that card too), or that most deaths in video games are male - and that's how it should be.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Seriously there are plenty of decent and good female characters out there in games and I don't see why a vocal minority should even come into play here. Anyway I just don't like feminism as it tend to want to create a matriarchal society instead of patriarchal which is just as wrong. Although there are proper feminists they aren't vocal about it and don't go around screaming it. Same reason why I don't call myself a Hardcore gamer even though by the proper terminology of the word I would be probably be considered one.

There's a huge difference between seeking a equality versus seeking dominance. It's the minority of obnoxiously vocal "feminists" that think women are better than men that give the rest of us a bad rap and have turned the very term "feminism" into dirty word.

I know I didn't directly say that in my piece but I did say that most actual feminists would not call themselves as such because of this. So in a roundabout way I have already said that.

Seriously there are plenty of decent and good female characters out there in games and I don't see why a vocal minority should even come into play here. Anyway I just don't like feminism as it tend to want to create a matriarchal society instead of patriarchal which is just as wrong. Although there are proper feminists they aren't vocal about it and don't go around screaming it. Same reason why I don't call myself a Hardcore gamer even though by the proper terminology of the word I would be probably be considered one.

Meh. "Plenty" doesn't cover everything, and there are some otherwise good games that depict gender or minority status as the single, defining trait of a character, and that's rant bait and plain stupidity on the part of writers. I know there are some people who call themselves feminists that would much prefer a matriarchal society to anything else, but there are also people who call themselves feminists who just want not to be depicted as the dumb blond or the nondescript damsel in distress anymore.

EDIT: Or the otherwise useless eye candy/arm decoration.

So just because the writers do not know how to do a decent female or male character does not take away from the fact there are many many many good examples of good characters of both genders. I think this applies in every case. For one good character/movie/book/etc there are about ten bad or average ones. To be honest most people depict women in media as complete and utter bitches so the damsel/dumb blonde is dying out.

 

[John Funk]

Because too many gamers are insecure teenage males who either associate feminism with misandry, or who fear females' entrance into their Boys' Only Club.

I really don't get why anyone would be against the desperately needed advancement of women in society.

Hahahahaha. For starters most gamers are actually 30 somethings who don't care about women playing games & secondly, you've inserted one of the most inaccurate, misinformed junk information feminist propoganda videos in all of internet-dom. There is literally not a single fact in that equals video that isn't 100% made up (and yes, misrepresenting data counts as made up).

The fact that you think that just demonstrates all the more why that video is necessary. Thank you for proving my point

 

[CheckD3]

I'm not against gender neutrality and equality at all, in fact, while I might get upset at a girl who's beating me online, the fact that there are skilled women out there is a fantastic thing. I'm against feminism because from what I see of it it's about flipping the roles of men and women in equality.

-Isms are the extremes, and that's where my problem lies. Sexism is all about one's own gender being better, racism is about a skin color being better than others, both involve insulting those who are different. So in that logic, feminism is about insulting men for their actions, or how they're brought up and demanding that women be in charge.

The problem is, game developers usually target a demographic of males, so when they do make women, they're support characters used to get the males attention, keep them focused in the game. Men don't complain about muscly guys, because we all want to be that fleshy man beast who can tear through legions of monsters and creatures using only our sheer will power and the flexing of our massive erections. Women are more likely to be jealous of a woman's body type because they can't always fix that. A woman who's flatter and wants to be more curvy can't jump from a B to a G cup through hard work, that takes surgery and money and is a lot different than a guy hitting the gym every day to get muscly. Plus the women are usually weaker and can't do as much as the men can. You get strong characters like Samus who has a figure that's attainable, and able to take out monsters just as good as the boys.

Feminism needs to go, gender equality is what's needed. The same way sexists and racist are put down, feminist need to be put down, the way Comic books became graphic novels, have feminism become gender equality

 

[agrajagthetesty]

-Isms are the extremes, and that's where my problem lies. Sexism is all about one's own gender being better, racism is about a skin color being better than others, both involve insulting those who are different. So in that logic, feminism is about insulting men for their actions, or how they're brought up and demanding that women be in charge.

I'd just like you to check out this page here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_words_suffixed_with_-ism and let me know if you still think that all -isms are extremes, and inherently about inequality.

 

[Labyrinth]

I was referring to circumcision.

Acutely aware. I'm fundamentally against infant and forced circumcision/genital mutilation because it is done without the informed consent of the person in question. If an adult, informed of the details of the medical procedure wants it done that's up to them. There are a number of medical arguments for male circumcision such as reduced HIV transmittion, none that I've ever found for female. Again, I think that it's a choice which adult, or at least informed individuals old enough to make decisions should be able to just as I think that about tattoos, piercings and other body modifications.

I think my point remains about the global nature of that issue, however. It's also present in the western world, but far less ubiquitous.

I'm not saying female gamers don't want a girly Duke Nukem, I'm saying women full stop don't. As female gamers (who aren't, I think we can all agree, playing Farmville or Tetris) are a very small subset of the female half of the population, this means they're very much in the minority.

As an aside, most girls are far weaker than even the most milquetoast-ish average man. This is why in the Marines [http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marines/a/cft.htm], even a 46+ man has to meet a standard higher than that of the strongest, youngest, most physically fit women. Note that for the can lifts, the lowest male standard is more than twice that of the women's highest.

This is just biology. There's nothing controvertible or even arguable when it comes to a woman's capacity to serve in the military to an equal degree as a man. They cannot.

I can't see your logic. Women who game may want female action game protagonists, but women full stop do not? What? So what does that make women who play games? Non-women? I'd like to see some statistical evidence for your assertions that the female gamer population who aren't casual gamers is small especially considering surveys which have shown that around 40% of the gamer population are female. I mean really, what you're saying is just a little sexist as a stereotype.

Recent research papers have shown that the only difference in strength between male and female average bodies is that males have a greater amount of muscle mass. The study I read was also a biographical and social one which explained this as a cultural thing in that men were encouraged to be active and strong by their culture, so they developed greater muscle mass. It's biology which shows no difference here. As for military institutions, I consider their standards rather sexist as well, and a poor indication of anything other than cultural norms for gender. As far as I'm concerned the standards should be the same for entry. This argument of yours is like pointing at women wearing burqas in some Islamic cultures and men not wearing them, and then saying that it's a biological difference which demands additional covering to counteract. Horseshit. The variation between individuals within a gender in terms of strength and capacity is far greater than that as a biological average between them. The culturally constructed difference in military role for genders is entirely controvertible.

 

[CheckD3]

-Isms are the extremes, and that's where my problem lies. Sexism is all about one's own gender being better, racism is about a skin color being better than others, both involve insulting those who are different. So in that logic, feminism is about insulting men for their actions, or how they're brought up and demanding that women be in charge.

I'd just like you to check out this page here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_words_suffixed_with_-ism and let me know if you still think that all -isms are extremes, and inherently about inequality.

I took a look, and while yes, not all isms are extremes or about inequality, notice how Feminism, Sexism, and Racism are all absent. And looking up the terms, feminism does state that it is about equality, but the SOUND of the title is I guess the problem. Comparing it to the Comic -> Graphic novels, the same thing is happening with games. We demand to be taken seriously, however, games are looked upon as childish, even though a large percent of games are actually too mature for younger audiences. The gamer tag is another example, as when people think of gamers, they don't think of normal people playing a game casually. They don't even picture women mostly, they image larger men, usually with a long ponytail, sitting in a dark basement, surrounded by Cheetos and mountain dew. So I guess I should revise my statement

Feminism, the title, may be about gender equality, however, when it's heard (to myself at least), I don't think of that fact, but I compare how it sounds to that of sexism and racism. Gender equality is the definition of feminism, but the title doesn't sound as it, because what's to say that man doesn't want that same equality for women? Feminism makes it sound like you'd have to be a woman suffering for her rights to be a feminist, but a man who wants that same equality can't be called one? Now I could be lacking in the knowledge that men can be feminists, and if so please let me know politely instead of bashing the lack of knowledge, but my common knowledge doesn't know, and that's I guess the problem.

 

[BRex21]

Recent research papers have shown that the only difference in strength between male and female average bodies is that males have a greater amount of muscle mass. The study I read was also a biographical and social one which explained this as a cultural thing in that men were encouraged to be active and strong by their culture, so they developed greater muscle mass. It's biology which shows no difference here.

Are you actually saying that there is research out there proving the innefectiveness of testosterone in muscle building? That a hormone, which is produced in much higher quantities in the male body than the female body, that is frequently synthesysed and used to promote increased physical performance with drastic results is all a lie? its all cultural?
I call bullshit and want to see this study.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I'm actually a little surprised by how venomous the rage is in here, on both sides. Makes me feel more apprehensive about the community, and the maturity of adult gamers in general. Didn't realize there was so much hate just waiting to spew out from people.

 

[agrajagthetesty]

-Isms are the extremes, and that's where my problem lies. Sexism is all about one's own gender being better, racism is about a skin color being better than others, both involve insulting those who are different. So in that logic, feminism is about insulting men for their actions, or how they're brought up and demanding that women be in charge.

I'd just like you to check out this page here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_words_suffixed_with_-ism and let me know if you still think that all -isms are extremes, and inherently about inequality.

I took a look, and while yes, not all isms are extremes or about inequality, notice how Feminism, Sexism, and Racism are all absent. And looking up the terms, feminism does state that it is about equality, but the SOUND of the title is I guess the problem. Comparing it to the Comic -> Graphic novels, the same thing is happening with games. We demand to be taken seriously, however, games are looked upon as childish, even though a large percent of games are actually too mature for younger audiences. The gamer tag is another example, as when people think of gamers, they don't think of normal people playing a game casually. They don't even picture women mostly, they image larger men, usually with a long ponytail, sitting in a dark basement, surrounded by Cheetos and mountain dew. So I guess I should revise my statement

Feminism, the title, may be about gender equality, however, when it's heard (to myself at least), I don't think of that fact, but I compare how it sounds to that of sexism and racism. Gender equality is the definition of feminism, but the title doesn't sound as it, because what's to say that man doesn't want that same equality for women? Feminism makes it sound like you'd have to be a woman suffering for her rights to be a feminist, but a man who wants that same equality can't be called one? Now I could be lacking in the knowledge that men can be feminists, and if so please let me know politely instead of bashing the lack of knowledge, but my common knowledge doesn't know, and that's I guess the problem.

In that case, your problem isn't with feminism as a belief system, a movement or an ideal, but just with the word itself. In my opinion, that's a pretty poor reason to have said something like "feminism needs to go". I hope you understand how a statement like that can be misconstrued.

So what you actually meant to say is that feminism needs to be rebranded. Looking at this thread, I have to say that I can see where you're coming from. There's been a horrific amount of backlash to feminism, and it's acquired so many stigmas and negative associations that a lot of people don't even recognise its original aim - which is indeed, as you have acknowledged, gender equality. But for too many people, the term "feminism" conjures up the image of a screeching, man-hating banshee. What I would ideally like is for this misconception to vanish. However, given how exceptionally unlikely that is, you might be onto something with the idea of a rebranding along the lines of comic -> graphic novel.

The "fem" in the title stems from the fact that when feminism emerged as a movement, women were at a significant societal disadvantage compared to men, so gender equality largely meant helping women. (These days, I'd say that there are stigmas against all genders, almost all of which stem from the traditional gender roles imposed on society.) The "fem" does not exclude men from the movement, and yes, there can be such a thing as male feminists. A few people have defined themselves as such in this very thread, in fact!

 

[Psycho Cat Industries]

This may have been discussed before but a search of the forums didn't bring up anything that I was looking for so...

I've been asked to write about sexism in gaming and I know it's a subject that has been done to death. I want to make it as fair an argument as possible. As a girl you can probably figure out which side of the debate I'm on but I do want to know why people are so vocal AGAINST people speaking up against sexist slogans in advertising and reinforcing white male gamer stereotypes.

For example, the recent gamestation advertising campaign saying their pre-owned games were cheaper than your girlfriend. When people complained that it was offensive the minority of gamers told them to shut up and get over it. So..why are people so against gaming becoming more gender neutral and accepting of female, child and elderly gamers.

I'm not slating it, I would just like to understand the mindset a bit better to at least try and make this piece of writing fairer.

The reason for the gamestation fiasco is due to the fact that it was meant to be obnoxious and a lot of people can't accept such concepts as different views or demographics so you get more of one and more complaint that it is high up until your views are high up to be flame-bombed.There really isn't much to this.In the U.S.,women and men are seen as equal and any instance of sexism whether crime or not is to the individual not the society.Yet,people are quick to judge a society based on one's actions or a region's past generations.I was born in Texas and we have always had that bridge of the genders.Do you think I endorse slavery or farm cattle on my ranch?I don't have either and would hate to do both.It can be a touchy subject and will always be misinterpreted until people finally let it die.Believe me when I say that I get your concern but it really isn't sexism to blame here.Really,its just the same winding rope as always has been there since this catapult we call humanity started up oh so far back in the day.Care to correct me when I say that a community at large can be judged by the individual when feminists are commonly seen as the one bitter girl who wants to be above the world.I seriously doubt that any such group is so black and white.Do not judge the community for Gamestation's fiasco.It's just marketing to the obnoxious and those are the ones to defend it.

 

[Psycho Cat Industries]

I'm actually a little surprised by how venomous the rage is in here, on both sides. Makes me feel more apprehensive about the community, and the maturity of adult gamers in general. Didn't realize there was so much hate just waiting to spew out from people.

Believe me,you don't pull Pinocchio's strings.It is the same with every group ain't it?Just all a bunch of politics.

 

[Chemical Alia]

Believe me,you don't pull Pinocchio's strings.It is the same with every group ain't it?Just all a bunch of politics.

In my fun and games, no less!