Why are people so quick to defend drinking? (rape thread offshoot)
- Thread starter CrashTest
- Start date
Recommended Videos
The difference between alcohol and other drugs is that alcohol can be consumed without being effected by it and still be enjoyed, not a whole lot other drugs have it that way.CrashTest said:
In response to all the "I've never lost control while drunk" comments.
Even the most horrendous alcoholic would generally say the same thing, not because it's true but because alcohol impairs memory. When drunk you ignore things you would pay close attention to while sober, things like other people's moods or emotions, or which route home you should take
This is why people in the early stages of drinking problems tend to feel that everyone around them is getting to them about drinking or is just being uptight or trying to spoil their fun, because they don't actually fully remember how fucking horrible they are while drunk.
Any respectable source of advice on alcohol abuse will tell you that you can't fully trust yourself to know when you did or didn't lose control or when you were or weren't a dick. The first you will generally know about your drinking problem is when someone else tries to tell you, and one of the biggest problems people have is the tendency to ignore what other people are saying and to feel that they had everything in hand.
I see a lot of talk about taking responsibility here, and I agree, but every person I know who has had or developed a drinking problem felt they were taking responsibility right up until the people they cared about were thoroughly sick of them and walked out. Taking responsibility means acknowledging that alcohol affects you, you can minimize and almost eliminate any potential problems by drinking sensibly, but you cannot claim to be able to drink in anything but extreme moderation and never to lose control. There are different degrees of losing control and in rape the degree which makes a difference between you being a rapist or not can be very, very fine.
Even the most horrendous alcoholic would generally say the same thing, not because it's true but because alcohol impairs memory. When drunk you ignore things you would pay close attention to while sober, things like other people's moods or emotions, or which route home you should take
This is why people in the early stages of drinking problems tend to feel that everyone around them is getting to them about drinking or is just being uptight or trying to spoil their fun, because they don't actually fully remember how fucking horrible they are while drunk.
Any respectable source of advice on alcohol abuse will tell you that you can't fully trust yourself to know when you did or didn't lose control or when you were or weren't a dick. The first you will generally know about your drinking problem is when someone else tries to tell you, and one of the biggest problems people have is the tendency to ignore what other people are saying and to feel that they had everything in hand.
I see a lot of talk about taking responsibility here, and I agree, but every person I know who has had or developed a drinking problem felt they were taking responsibility right up until the people they cared about were thoroughly sick of them and walked out. Taking responsibility means acknowledging that alcohol affects you, you can minimize and almost eliminate any potential problems by drinking sensibly, but you cannot claim to be able to drink in anything but extreme moderation and never to lose control. There are different degrees of losing control and in rape the degree which makes a difference between you being a rapist or not can be very, very fine.
Purely out of curiosity: if a guy talks a girl into doing shots, but then he ends up doing "shots" of water instead of vodka, is what he did wrong or was that entirely my fault for believing "it's just one shot"?
He says nothing happened, i'm just wondering if i should blame myself or him for the hangover the next morning.
He says nothing happened, i'm just wondering if i should blame myself or him for the hangover the next morning.
That's a greyish area in terms of blame as its contextual. Generally speaking, tricking someone into drinking is bad. Like, very bad. However, I've had the water shots trick done on me a couple of times by friends because they know I'm the sort of person who would be amused by it, or simply that I wanted to get drunk more than they did.erefe said:
Getting someone drunk who doesn't want to be is extremely bad (and in that case if it goes to sex then I'd start to call it rape). If you actually wanted to get drunk, and they didn't have ill intentions, then I've personally forgiven it. That said, I don't think I have or would ever do the water trick to someone else, especially not to a girl (though I have no rational justification for that bias).
I think it's the degree to which alcohol is correlated with socializing. If we socialized as much as we do with alcohol with anything else, say for example, sniffing glue, it would be just as defended. "Hey, sniffing glue can't be bad. Me and my friends sniff glue all the time. I met my girlfriend sniffing glue." I don't drink at all, but often when I mention to people that I don't, the amount of quiet unspoken judgements about my personality are many. What's wrong with him? Is he no fun? Is he judgmental? Is he religious?
I'd say the predominant reason I don't drink is merely because almost everyone else does. And just because other people do it and have fun and socialize, I know that will not necessarily be the case if I did it.
I'd say the predominant reason I don't drink is merely because almost everyone else does. And just because other people do it and have fun and socialize, I know that will not necessarily be the case if I did it.
As someone who is exceptionally drunk right now, I'd like to add that it's a monumental pillar of our very civilization. Alcohol, its benefits and its abuse has been with us since we decided to crowd together in one place and grow stuff, as opposed to move around and eat all the deers in one given area before moving on. I think it holds a massive place in our culture, deserved or not.
Of course, I feel that I can't really be trusted to speak on this issue... *Laddidah's off to self-medicate some moar.*
Of course, I feel that I can't really be trusted to speak on this issue... *Laddidah's off to self-medicate some moar.*
First, you mistake how I choose to spend my leisure time with how I will spend my time in a social setting. Second, I'm not siding with drinking. That's apathy I'm siding with. What some stranger does with booze rarely interferes with my own plans and, as such, I rarely feel the need to offer an opinion on the subject.CrashTest said:
Yes, there are problems associated with drinking and yet people seem to ignore it. It might be an interesting thing to study if the reason were not so obvious. Booze has been with humanity since we started writing things down so we could remember them later. The weight of millenia of history is a lot to overcome especially when most people manage to enjoy the use of alcohol responsibly.CrashTest said:
I'm not sure its natural to differentiate between leisure and social time by default, but if that was your intent then fair enough. I would argue that whilst you might be arguing for apathy about whether someone screws themself over with alcohol, to take the time to argue that point would require at least a little motivation. In which case you seem to care more about convincing people not to care about people getting screwed over, than about people getting screwed over.Eclectic Dreck said:
Now I'm sure I am twisting your intent there, but I'm not entirely sure how you could be arguing for apathy in any other way.
I was sort of hoping that people on these forums might be capable of independent thought, and to question a societal norm. Whilst I did phrase the title as 'why do people', to make it a more inclusive topic, I guess a more pertinent question would be 'why do you'. We don't live in a society where people blindly follow norms, nor do we live in a society where going to the pub/ a bar is the only legitimate option for adults to spend there recreational time.Eclectic Dreck said:
As far as the last sentence goes, I'm not convinced most people is accurate, but even if it were, I'd suspect the same would be true of cannabis if t were legal.
Why do you shave?CrashTest said:
Why do you wear matching socks?
Why do you wear trousers instead of a skirt?
Why do you type according to accepted spelling and grammar?
Why do you drive on the right-hand side of the road? (Assuming you're not British, in which case, why the left?)
Why do you hold your fork in your left hand and your knife in the right hand?
Why don't you eat ice cream for breakfast and cornflakes for dinner?
Why do you ask somebody "Hi, how are you doing?" when actually the last think you want to hear is a rundown of their day?
My point is, you say we don't blindly follow norms, I say oh yes we bloody well do. Every last one of us who wants to have some part in society follows a whole truckload of culture-specific norms every day, most of them completely unconsciously. And, yes, in our culture we have designated buildings where you can go to mildly intoxicate yourself with overpriced ethanol solution in a variety of flavours. From the viewpoint of a Vulcan, that would be illogical. But, culture-free thinking be damned, even the most special snowflake among us is a product of culture and society.
Because if you try to put alcohol in a bad light in this type of context, you get accused of being a filthy prohibition-lover.
Welcome to the internet. ;_;
Welcome to the internet. ;_;
Because alcohol is just the next blacksheep-fad. It's nothing bad and malicious.
It's up to each person who consumes alcohol to know what they're doing. I expect that from grown up adults.
If you make a mess while being drunk, it's fully your fault, because it was your choice to drink to much.
Also if both a drunk don't draw the "rapist" card. That's not nice my ladies. Because women that really get raped are often scared to talk about it because of those false accusations bein' made by foolish girls who need an excuse
It's up to each person who consumes alcohol to know what they're doing. I expect that from grown up adults.
If you make a mess while being drunk, it's fully your fault, because it was your choice to drink to much.
Also if both a drunk don't draw the "rapist" card. That's not nice my ladies. Because women that really get raped are often scared to talk about it because of those false accusations bein' made by foolish girls who need an excuse
Batou667 said:
Not a single one of those was due to it being a social norm, apart from the skirt example. As clothing is generally by comfort or desire to appear a certain way, then the social norm is adhered to only for practical purposes.
More importantly, none of the things you suggested were in any way harmful or dangerous. In fact, in some of them it would be MORE dangerous to ignore them.
We don't have to be slaves to social norms in real life, especially not if they're damaging. Sometimes adhering to them prevents unwanted repercussions, or perhaps has some benefit, but that isn't blind adherence, its pragmatism. We certainly aren't slaves to them online, with all the anonymity and ability to log off that such a setting provides.
I assume you didn't bother to read even the first post of this thread then?anthony87 said:
Hate having to double post in this, but I was enjoying the discussion and my account got banned by mistake before I had a chance to edit in a response to this:
More importantly, why do you expect grown up adults to know what they're doing? A lot of grown up adults are very, very stupid. Generally, societal pressures will stop them from doing things which will detriment them, or people around them. That's why we have health and safety laws.
If society encourages alcohol use, and you have shows like Jersey Shore making it look 'cool' (in the loosest, most ironic usage of the word I can muster), then what is to show people that getting completely smashed and winding up in a gutter might not be the best idea in the world?
Also, before anyone argues that adults aren't stupid, I'll just point to creationism as an example of modern day adults, en masse, completely ignoring common sense because of the environment they are raised in.
Do you really believe that there is "nothing" bad or malicious about alcohol? Or do you mean that to be a relative description?Adeptus Aspartem said:
More importantly, why do you expect grown up adults to know what they're doing? A lot of grown up adults are very, very stupid. Generally, societal pressures will stop them from doing things which will detriment them, or people around them. That's why we have health and safety laws.
If society encourages alcohol use, and you have shows like Jersey Shore making it look 'cool' (in the loosest, most ironic usage of the word I can muster), then what is to show people that getting completely smashed and winding up in a gutter might not be the best idea in the world?
Also, before anyone argues that adults aren't stupid, I'll just point to creationism as an example of modern day adults, en masse, completely ignoring common sense because of the environment they are raised in.
I have no idea. People use alcohol as an excuse for all sorts of things including terrible spelling and grammar. I'm drunk right now (what? It's new year's eve) and I would never let myself commit such an atrocity. Having said that, if someone is unconscious, regardless of whether it is through a fault of their own, they should be entitled to expect not to get raped. If they drunkenly consent to sex it is a very grey area, and most of the time those cases are (rightfully) thrown out, provided both parties were drunk. Hell, most of the time they are never taken to court. People accept them as the mistakes they are and move on. If you deliberately get someone drunk or drugged to prey on them sexually, that is another matter altogether.