Why aren't there more dogfighting games that aren't sims?

[octafish]

My venerable Sidewinder Joystick has decided not to return to dead centre any more so I decided to try my dual-shock style controller to play some IL2:Wings of Prey. To my surprise it wasn't horrible, not as good as a proper joystick but still a good way of playing the game. It is a pretty involved game and I still used a lot of keyboard commands but I remember playing a lot of simple, more arcadey, flight combat games in the past. It made me wonder why more flight games aren't being made outside of the sim scene. You know like Crimson Skies. The HAWX games are the only ones I can think of in recent times and they aren't very satisfying, with their terrible story and meaningless characters.

It raises a bunch of questions about why the AAA scene has become so stale.
Is there just no market for a simpler dog fighting game? It could be sci-fi if you like.
Would you buy, say, a Crimson Skies style game? Was the XBOX version of Crimson Skies any good? Is that what killed the genre?
Can you only make money with a FPS?

Also I'm thinking about getting a Saitek Cyborg X, anyone got one? Any joystick recommendations?

 

[Ironic Pirate]

Oh, that kind of dog fighting.

I was expecting something completely different.

 

[tjs09]

I came here to tell you about the MikeVickMod they made for Dino Wars, but then I realised you meant planes. I'm disappointed.

 

[Tiger Sora]

You have the Ace Combat series of 8 games or soon to be 8. And the only other good dogfight game I know of is 'Secret weapons over Normandy'. The first is modern planes but you do get into turning battles and dogfights often. Normandy is a WW2 game so it's nothing but.

 

[brunothepig]

It's not exactly a niche genre, but it's not a large one either. Still, I'm with you. A spaceship dog fighting game could be very interesting, and could make for some varied battlefields and weapons. Dogfighting in an asteroid belt, dogfighting near a planet fighting against the gravitational pull etc. Plus, you know, much more varied weapons.

 

[viranimus]

Well, I cant offer much on joy recommendations, but I am also disheartened by this. The whole style of game has faded into nothing, when it used to be rather big.

It also encompasses space dogfighting which is also equally dried up. I cant tell you how many hours I logged in Colony wars, Star Trek Invasion, Descent (which on multiplayer it was in essence dogfighting) etc that theres really little or nothing to fill that niche anymore.

For the love of god give me a modern colony wars sequel!

Edit: if its any indication on how dire it is.. I bought Project Sylpheed out of desperation.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I'd like there to be more dogfighting games period. I love space combat sims, but there hasn't been a major one released in what, 10 years? Every time this topic comes up, on pretty much any gaming forum that contains PC gamers, the thread fills up with people wanting to buy a new Wing Commander or X-Wing style flight sim, and yet the publishers continue to ignore this market.

Spoiler: My advice to the publishers:

 

[b4k4]

If you do enough looking around, you might be able to find Project Sylpheed. It's a sci-fi flight sim that I think leans more towards the arcade end of the scale. It was released by Square Enix (developed by some smaller company), and the story isn't exactly what you would call stellar, but the space combat and ship customization are both pretty fun. I picked up a refurbished copy for $5 at Walmart this past winter. Unfortunately, it seems to be a 360 exclusive.

 

[manythings]

1: If it's not a sim the fans of flight sims *****, moan, 'boycott', flame and cry about it not being realistic.
2: If it is a sim, it only sells to the few sim fans out there. The game, as far as the investors go, is a flop, and the series gets canned.


Lose if you do, lose if you don't, so game devs just abandon the genre entirely.

Yeah I have to go with this being the sticking point. If there was a chance of it really paying off they'd be throwing money at them. Back in the mists of the past there was a game called United Peace Force, that's the last instance I can think of of a more arcade flight combat game. 2002 on the PS2, if you want one that badly that's really all I can think of that you could possibly get. I have yet to find a reasonably price for a copy online though.

 

[octafish]

1: If it's not a sim the fans of flight sims *****, moan, 'boycott', flame and cry about it not being realistic.
2: If it is a sim, it only sells to the few sim fans out there. The game, as far as the investors go, is a flop, and the series gets canned.


Lose if you do, lose if you don't, so game devs just abandon the genre entirely.

In racing the two coexist pretty well, with rFactor, RaceOn, Need for Speed and Burnout catering to different tastes quite happily.

 

[CD-R]

It raises a bunch of questions about why the AAA scene has become so stale.
Is there just no market for a simpler dog fighting game? It could be sci-fi if you like.
Would you buy, say, a Crimson Skies style game? Was the XBOX version of Crimson Skies any good? Is that what killed the genre?
Can you only make money with a FPS?

Crimson Skies for the PC and Crimson Skies High: High Road to revenge for the old X Box are pretty good. It takes place in an alternate history 1930's America where the USA split into several independent nations. You fly around in 1930's style planes with things like flamewthrowers and lightning bolt generators attached to them. High Road to Revenge had great multiplayer. It's single player mode was also pretty robust. It took place on different maps that you could fly around anywhere on. Almost GTA like.


I fully believe with time this could have become a great franchise on par with Halo, Battlefield, or Call of Duty. But sadly the company that made this game decided to make Shadow Run instead of a sequel. So yeah.

Anyway I recommend tracking down an old copy. Not sure if it's backwards compatible with the 360 or not. Although you won't be able to play the multiplayer any more the single player mode is still pretty fun.

Haven't played the PC version so I can't comment on it. But I have heard good things about it and their might still be a multiplayer community floating around out there.

 

[The Breadcrab]

Maybe Dark Void scared everyone away from air combat? It's probably because dogfighting includes vertical and horizontal movement, strafing(?), banking, going upside-down, dodging missiles, etc meaning it's just too complicated for the average player. You do have a point, though.

In any case, the upcoming Ace Combat seems (I repeat, seems) accessible for newcomers but still entertaining. Only time will tell.

 

[Rhatar Khurin]

I always liked the Colony wars games or the old Star wars TIE fighter/X-wing alliance etc.

 

[octafish]

It raises a bunch of questions about why the AAA scene has become so stale.
Is there just no market for a simpler dog fighting game? It could be sci-fi if you like.
Would you buy, say, a Crimson Skies style game? Was the XBOX version of Crimson Skies any good? Is that what killed the genre?
Can you only make money with a FPS?

Crimson Skies for the PC and Crimson Skies High: High Road to revenge for the old X Box are pretty good. It takes place in an alternate history 1930's America where the USA split into several independent nations. You fly around in 1930's style planes with things like flamewthrowers and lightning bolt generators attached to them. High Road to Revenge had great multiplayer. It's single player mode was also pretty robust. It took place on different maps that you could fly around anywhere on. Almost GTA like.


I fully believe with time this could have become a great franchise on par with Halo, Battlefield, or Call of Duty. But sadly the company that made this game decided to make Shadow Run instead of a sequel. So yeah.

Anyway I recommend tracking down an old copy. Not sure if it's backwards compatible with the 360 or not. Although you won't be able to play the multiplayer any more the single player mode is still pretty fun.

Haven't played the PC version so I can't comment on it. But I have heard good things about it and their might still be a multiplayer community floating around out there.

Oh I still play Crimson Skies on PC regularly. It is a favorite option for multiplayer via LAN because the game only has a disk check. So you only need one copy to get everyone up and running. There are some issues with modern GPUs and Crimson Skies but there are fan based workarounds for Nvidia cards, and the game plays quite nicely on modern integrated graphics. I play it on a netbook so it isn't exactly a taxing program. I just never played the console version but I understood that it wasn't just a port but a sort of new game/sequel.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

They haven't made any more because they realized nothing will top TIE Fighter. Ever.

 

[CD-R]

It raises a bunch of questions about why the AAA scene has become so stale.
Is there just no market for a simpler dog fighting game? It could be sci-fi if you like.
Would you buy, say, a Crimson Skies style game? Was the XBOX version of Crimson Skies any good? Is that what killed the genre?
Can you only make money with a FPS?

Crimson Skies for the PC and Crimson Skies High: High Road to revenge for the old X Box are pretty good. It takes place in an alternate history 1930's America where the USA split into several independent nations. You fly around in 1930's style planes with things like flamewthrowers and lightning bolt generators attached to them. High Road to Revenge had great multiplayer. It's single player mode was also pretty robust. It took place on different maps that you could fly around anywhere on. Almost GTA like.


I fully believe with time this could have become a great franchise on par with Halo, Battlefield, or Call of Duty. But sadly the company that made this game decided to make Shadow Run instead of a sequel. So yeah.

Anyway I recommend tracking down an old copy. Not sure if it's backwards compatible with the 360 or not. Although you won't be able to play the multiplayer any more the single player mode is still pretty fun.

Haven't played the PC version so I can't comment on it. But I have heard good things about it and their might still be a multiplayer community floating around out there.

Oh I still play Crimson Skies on PC regularly. It is a favorite option for multiplayer via LAN because the game only has a disk check. So you only need one copy to get everyone up and running. There are some issues with modern GPUs and Crimson Skies but there are fan based workarounds for Nvidia cards, and the game plays quite nicely on modern integrated graphics. I play it on a netbook so it isn't exactly a taxing program. I just never played the console version but I understood that it wasn't just a port but a sort of new game/sequel.

It was a sequel. And as far as console ports go it was done very well. The controls were very tight and responsive and it had pretty well balanced multiplayer. They even gave away free dlc in the form of new planes and I think a new map. I think it was like the second or third most played game on X Box live after Halo 2. As far as sales go I guess it didn't sell as well as they wanted. But you have to keep in mind this was an X-Box Exclusive. If it was multi-platform it probably would have done a lot better. Also apparently it is backwards compatible and you can get it off of X Box Live Arcade.

There was also a game on X Box Live Arcade which is basically Crimson Skies only it has the characters from Peanuts flying around.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/7731-Review-Snoopy-Flying-Ace

Actually considering it's only 800 points I might pick this up at some point.

 

[Zantos]

I liked HAWX, it was fun.

That said, it's the only major flight combat release recently (even then because it was Tom Clancy branded) and it wasn't very popular. No one is going to invest some 50 million dollars into a game they don't think will sell.