Why Bullying is something we can never, ever change:
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Hmm. Interesting post.
I don't think it's whether or not the bullies know that they are hurting someone, it is that they do not know how -much- they're hurting someone. I was bullied to an interesting degree in my high school days, and yes, I'm sure some of them meant to be mean. If I told them I wanted to kill myself because of it? Some would probably stop too. My friends take potshots at each other all the time, sometimes they're very sharp comments and should hurt quite a good amount, but of course we know it's all a game. Some people don't know it's a game (victims and bullies).
Although, teen suicide rates have always been a strange issue to me. What has occurred these past years to make bullying an actual problem? Bullying has always existed, at least in some form, so why is it that NOW it's a problem? NOW it's causing suicides. It may be that suicide was something very hush-hush, a taboo, culturally for a long time, but that feels like too specific of an answer to explain it all away to me. This neato graph (scroll down two pages) I found states that suicide rates among 15-19 year olds from 1950 to 1990 are almost 4x as high. Did kids in the 1950s have thicker skin? Maybe. I dunno. It's something to consider though.
Mind you, I'm not saying "Hey, toughen up kids!" Bullying is wrong, full stop. When I was bullied, I was lucky to have a great support network of people who cared for me and helped me through it. I'm just curious when this became a problem, and why.
I don't think it's whether or not the bullies know that they are hurting someone, it is that they do not know how -much- they're hurting someone. I was bullied to an interesting degree in my high school days, and yes, I'm sure some of them meant to be mean. If I told them I wanted to kill myself because of it? Some would probably stop too. My friends take potshots at each other all the time, sometimes they're very sharp comments and should hurt quite a good amount, but of course we know it's all a game. Some people don't know it's a game (victims and bullies).
Although, teen suicide rates have always been a strange issue to me. What has occurred these past years to make bullying an actual problem? Bullying has always existed, at least in some form, so why is it that NOW it's a problem? NOW it's causing suicides. It may be that suicide was something very hush-hush, a taboo, culturally for a long time, but that feels like too specific of an answer to explain it all away to me. This neato graph (scroll down two pages) I found states that suicide rates among 15-19 year olds from 1950 to 1990 are almost 4x as high. Did kids in the 1950s have thicker skin? Maybe. I dunno. It's something to consider though.
Mind you, I'm not saying "Hey, toughen up kids!" Bullying is wrong, full stop. When I was bullied, I was lucky to have a great support network of people who cared for me and helped me through it. I'm just curious when this became a problem, and why.
Haven't we all been bullied and bullied others before? Why is this such an issue these days? What ever happened to ignoring them unless they don't stop, then you bust their nose or tell a teacher if you're not inclined to any physical resolution? I just can't believe that bullying wasn't such a major issue until only a decade or two ago. What changed?
Now I can recognize that some cases of bullying come to the extreme, but these cannot be as widespread as the media would have it appear.
In short, I do not believe bullying is an issue that is so important that it requires anything more than to talk to somebody or beat the bully up. There is nothing to "solve" here. Some might say my post is just a collection of cliche old ideas, but I don't think all old ideas are so bad.
Now I can recognize that some cases of bullying come to the extreme, but these cannot be as widespread as the media would have it appear.
In short, I do not believe bullying is an issue that is so important that it requires anything more than to talk to somebody or beat the bully up. There is nothing to "solve" here. Some might say my post is just a collection of cliche old ideas, but I don't think all old ideas are so bad.
I don't ever remember anyone at my school killing themselves because of bullying. I haven't been out that long either, we always ignored it or solved the problem (usually with a little fight and then they'd both shut up). Was everyone born a couple years after me deciding that killing themselves is a better option than dealing with the problem?
It's easy to not know you are being a bully. It is really fucking hard to not realize you are making someone's life a living hell. You have to actively seek them out and mock them relentlessly to get to that point, and I cannot believe you can do it and not realize it. Name calling is part of growing up. I think we can all admit that. But driving people to the point of suicide? No. There is never an excuse for that.
"Because more often than not, people don't know they're being bullies." Someone has never taken psychology... If brainwashing works, if religions exist, if subconsciousness can be modified, bullying can be ended. The problem is NOT if bullying can be purged, it's if it SHOULD be purged.
Bullying lacks enough of a solid definition to be legislated out of existence. This kinda feeds into the OP's point. Bullying isn't necessarily a conscious action. Most people involved in bullying aren't even aware they are a part of it. It's more of a collective feeling of ill will and unwantedness directed toward one particular person or a small group. Unless you mean to say that you can regulate a non-action or inform someone of the dangers of engaging in a non-action in a manner that they will understand and appreciate. This post got much longer than I originally meant it to be.Wayneguard said:
I wouldn't say they had thicker skin, but people were certainly more religious back then, and that could explain part of it. They also had the ability to escape from the bullying by going home and losing themselves into books or comics. Today, many teens have cell phones and Facebook pages, so they can never really escape the bullying.Tigerlemur said:
I do believe we've found a solution! Brilliant!Wayneguard said:
In all seriousness, bullying will never go away because there will always be people who allow themselves to be easy targets. I don't mean to sound insensitive, but bullies can sense a victim by the way he/she carries themselves, and sometimes people are just asking for a douche to come over and harass them. I know people should be allowed to be themselves no matter what other people think, but sadly this is the truth.
If a person appears (emphasis on this word) to have high self-esteem and confidence, it doesn't matter how tough they look physically, bullies will most likely steer clear. A bully usually has low self-esteem, so they seek people with an even lower self-esteem to pick on.
There will always be bullying simply because instinct demands that competition for resources be removed somehow. Whether that resource is attention or help or power or whatever have you, the notion that there is something finite we have to get at the expense of others is ingrained into us because that's how it tends to work in the animal kingdom.
Eventually, most people will learn when they've been jerks about that sort of thing, certainly over time, but at that immediate stage where we're most focused on growth, bullying seems like the only way to make things work that we, individually, can be assured of, since it places no stock in other figures or entities which may or may not work out the way you expect it to.
Short form, bullying is a survival instinct writ large and ugly.
Eventually, most people will learn when they've been jerks about that sort of thing, certainly over time, but at that immediate stage where we're most focused on growth, bullying seems like the only way to make things work that we, individually, can be assured of, since it places no stock in other figures or entities which may or may not work out the way you expect it to.
Short form, bullying is a survival instinct writ large and ugly.
Damn right it is. I'm not blaming the victims, I'm just saying that's how it starts.Sean951 said:
I suppose the bullies just don't understand that their actions are going to far, and the next thing you know, they've indirectly killed someone. It's horrifying that some people can't see how damaging their actions are to others.
wookiee777 said:
Well, see here's the thing. It would appear to me that you guys are either overestimating the effectiveness of your options or they're a bit too simple. Let's discuss them, shall we?Dawns Gate said:
First off: Physical resolution. Beating up a bully is all fine and dandy when it's just one. But you'll find that a lot of kids are ending up bullied by more than one person. And that makes it more complicated. I mean, what are you gonna do? Fight them all? Surely not all at once because dude, numbers and all that. I suppose you could try and fight one on one even if you have more than a single bully. Maybe they won't all try to jump you or anything.
And that's even considering this person can fight or not. Even if they're comfortable enough to do so, it could just end up getting their ass beat for defending themselves. And not every bully is that noble type who thinks that because you stood up to them, you'll be best buddies now. And then things could get worse.
You both know that ignoring is hardly the most effective thing so... yeah.
Lastly: Telling someone about it. That doesn't always work either. More often than not, a bully will back off temporarily just long enough to get attention off their back and then start up again. Not to mention that often bullying happens during times when there's no adult to see it or be readily available to tell. After school, in the halls when people pass by, during lunch.
Plus, once again, telling might make it worse.
Can you really be all that surprised how someone can feel helpless? Hopeless? That no one can help them? I'm willing to bet those that were pushed to suicide were driven there because they tried all those options you suggest here and none of them panned out. Not a one.
I don't believe these people don't realise they're not bullying, at least not for the large cases where the victim commits suicide. Cue exhibit A
How can you honestly say that the bully did not realise he was bullying? He grabbed the victims collar and punched him numerous times while his friends egged him on. He obviously new that he was hurting the victim and he enjoyed every moment till the victim fought back.
Now your reasoning that bullys don't realise that they are bullying would only apply to the small cases, a small joke that the other finds offensive, a solid shoulder bump whilst walking down the corridor. When it's serious like beating up people or antagonizing someone every single day then they obviously know what they're doing is bullying.
I still see this as bad parenting on the most part. Most parents of bullys barely know anything is wrong with their child till they're called in by the principal. From what I've seen bullys are spoilt rotten(due note this is not every case I am well aware of the "troubled at home so take out the anger at other kids" reason for bullys) and they often use violent means to get what they want.
The solution could be as simple as educating the parent, new parents recieve a leaflet or something informing them that bullying is something that can and will occur in their childs life, they should really include this in books talking about raising a kid. Awareness is key and I agree with that, but deep down bullys will still exist, this would only make less bullys.
Now your reasoning that bullys don't realise that they are bullying would only apply to the small cases, a small joke that the other finds offensive, a solid shoulder bump whilst walking down the corridor. When it's serious like beating up people or antagonizing someone every single day then they obviously know what they're doing is bullying.
I still see this as bad parenting on the most part. Most parents of bullys barely know anything is wrong with their child till they're called in by the principal. From what I've seen bullys are spoilt rotten(due note this is not every case I am well aware of the "troubled at home so take out the anger at other kids" reason for bullys) and they often use violent means to get what they want.
The solution could be as simple as educating the parent, new parents recieve a leaflet or something informing them that bullying is something that can and will occur in their childs life, they should really include this in books talking about raising a kid. Awareness is key and I agree with that, but deep down bullys will still exist, this would only make less bullys.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again. As long as someone is in some way different from somebody, people will make fun of them and hate them. It doesn't matter how superficial the differences are. If one person has a slightly larger nose, if one is missing a tooth, if one is black, white, green, short, tall, fat, or skinny. If one reason to make fun of or hate them goes away, another will spring up in it's place.
Since when most people refer to bullying, they're talking about a continued pattern of harrassment-yeah, no, most people are TOTALLY aware that they're being antisocial bullies. You might unintentionally offend someone, or annoy them, but you won't make a systematic habit of screwing with them by accident. Yes, people are often jerks. But that's not what people are talking about, and that's certainly not what causes suicides.
And the solution to stopping people from doing it by accident anyway? Would be exactly the same as stopping them from doing it deliberately.
-Tell them that it's wrong, and that people don't respect that sort of behaviour. Again, you suggest this. Two points here-1) Most people who really don't like your behaviour, will let you know in some way. Maybe not in every instance, but eventually, it usually becomes pretty clear. 2) It really doesn't take that much effort on your part to realise you're doing something that the person you're engaging with doesn't like.
-If they refuse to stop, punish them and exclude them from people who refuse to engage in that behaviour.
You know, the way we solve most societal problems. Yes, legislature helps-if you make the instructions for teachers in schools for instance, universal, and cater towards eliminating this practice, you'll get rid of some of the more absurd examples. I know for instance, I had one little toerag pick on me in primary school. The teacher's method for dealing with it was to make him apologise, and then he'd go right back to it. If the teacher had had some knowledge forced upon him by someone with a fucking brain, then that problem could have been nipped in the bud, rather than having it collapse to me waiting for the kid to get close enough so I could try to hit him. Everyone knows there are good ways and bad ways of dealing with these problems, and yeah, legislature is a way of enforcing what are hopefully the optimal processes for reducing the problem.
And the solution to stopping people from doing it by accident anyway? Would be exactly the same as stopping them from doing it deliberately.
-Tell them that it's wrong, and that people don't respect that sort of behaviour. Again, you suggest this. Two points here-1) Most people who really don't like your behaviour, will let you know in some way. Maybe not in every instance, but eventually, it usually becomes pretty clear. 2) It really doesn't take that much effort on your part to realise you're doing something that the person you're engaging with doesn't like.
-If they refuse to stop, punish them and exclude them from people who refuse to engage in that behaviour.
You know, the way we solve most societal problems. Yes, legislature helps-if you make the instructions for teachers in schools for instance, universal, and cater towards eliminating this practice, you'll get rid of some of the more absurd examples. I know for instance, I had one little toerag pick on me in primary school. The teacher's method for dealing with it was to make him apologise, and then he'd go right back to it. If the teacher had had some knowledge forced upon him by someone with a fucking brain, then that problem could have been nipped in the bud, rather than having it collapse to me waiting for the kid to get close enough so I could try to hit him. Everyone knows there are good ways and bad ways of dealing with these problems, and yeah, legislature is a way of enforcing what are hopefully the optimal processes for reducing the problem.
Barring some sort of extreme yet well deserved punishment, this shit isn't going to stop. The bottom line is that human beings are miserable little piles of quivering goo and the universe would be better off without them.
I actually have a plan, but it will require all of us to make it work.
From this point on, if we ever see a child bullying another child, we make sure nobody is looking and then knock that little fucker's teeth down his throat and run like the dickens. The legend of the tooth smasher will circulate the world over and all children will be afraid to so much as look at one another crossly.
I should've been in bed about an hour ago.
I actually have a plan, but it will require all of us to make it work.
From this point on, if we ever see a child bullying another child, we make sure nobody is looking and then knock that little fucker's teeth down his throat and run like the dickens. The legend of the tooth smasher will circulate the world over and all children will be afraid to so much as look at one another crossly.
I should've been in bed about an hour ago.