Why do people care about piracy?

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Housebroken Lunatic

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Fieldy409 said:
Piracy is a new problem produced by modern technology that we still need to figure out
Now you're basically calling technological progression a "problem".

It's not the "problem" of piracy that needs to be solved, what needs to be solved is how the market isn't catching up with the progression of technology, and what's REALLY a PROBLEM is the fact that some parts of the market actually wishes to have legislations created that tries to STOP and HINDER technological progression.

Technological progression is MORE IMPORTANT than the survival of a few companies whose outdated businessmodels are just that: OUTDATED.

In a true capitalist market we don't let companies whose products or services are no longer needed or even viably modern continue to live and prosper. Either they have to adapt to the consumers behaviour and technological standard or it's simply their time to go.

But somehow these corporations have fooled people into thinking that it is WE the consumers who are THEIR servants and no the other way around. And that they somehow deserve to put a stop to technological progression just because their outdated businessmodels can't keep up and earn them as much profits as they'd like.

Face it people, the global economy is a SHIFTING phenomenon, not something that you can hope to keep in stasis for your profits sake. The technology available sets the standard for what kind of a business model is viable and what isn't, and the companies who happen to have outdated ones should just suck it up and start adapting, not trying to prosecute individual consumers and ruining their lives.
 

AperioContra

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
If you spend your time creating art with the hope of selling it, then yeah that would be the right course of action.

However, your artistic integrity would be pretty dubious if your sole goal with making art is to make it sell.
I agree, it is kind of dubious. And when it comes to much art nowerdays we are no longer restricted sell to ensure that it gets enjoyed. For example, my form, the written art, can be distributed through blogs or online publishing. Even in music the vastly unrecognized Myspace bands have a different alternative than the record companies.

However, this offers little comfort to me when I turn on my radio and I hear Ke$ha or Shine Down twice as much as I ever want to hear it (more than Zero). Or when I walk through a bookstore and find Anne Rice's rape of literature that she crapped out this year. Even though I know that I can get far better bands than Jackle or far better Fanfics than anything Anne Rice can make on the internet (man this is a post for ripping on Anne Rice, isn't it?), it provides little comfort when I see that the mainstream art, the art that determines the direction that all other art will follow suit, is becoming bland and stale.

And nowhere is this more prevalent than video games. Unlike the other arts I've mentioned, making a high fidelity video game for the Consoles or PCs requires a lot of money that a starving artist simply does not have access to. So what do we get for it? Games that take no risk, losing all of their artistic integrity to bring us this year's First Person Shooter 9/11 revenge simulators.

Sometimes it's about the money you get to live, rather getting money to improve your art, or just insuring more people will enjoy your art, which is what most artists want. We do artists or ourselves no favors by aprehending the large companies (no matter how big of dicks they are). We aren't going to force them to stop being dicks, we just force them to take no risk at sacrifice to the art they present.
 

evilneko

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Wise man once said, do not worry when they pirate your software; worry when they do not.
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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AperioContra said:
I agree, it is kind of dubious. And when it comes to much art nowerdays we are no longer restricted sell to ensure that it gets enjoyed. For example, my form, the written art, can be distributed through blogs or online publishing. Even in music the vastly unrecognized Myspace bands have a different alternative than the record companies.

However, this offers little comfort to me when I turn on my radio and I hear Ke$ha or Shine Down twice as much as I ever want to hear it (more than Zero). Or when I walk through a bookstore and find Anne Rice's rape of literature that she crapped out this year. Even though I know that I can get far better bands than Jackle or far better Fanfics than anything Anne Rice can make on the internet (man this is a post for ripping on Anne Rice, isn't it?), it provides little comfort when I see that the mainstream art, the art that determines the direction that all other art will follow suit, is becoming bland and stale.

And nowhere is this more prevalent than video games. Unlike the other arts I've mentioned, making a high fidelity video game for the Consoles or PCs requires a lot of money that a starving artist simply does not have access to. So what do we get for it? Games that take no risk, losing all of their artistic integrity to bring us this year's First Person Shooter 9/11 revenge simulators.

Sometimes it's about the money you get to live, rather getting money to improve your art, or just insuring more people will enjoy your art, which is what most artists want. We do artists or ourselves no favors by aprehending the large companies (no matter how big of dicks they are). We aren't going to force them to stop being dicks, we just force them to take no risk at sacrifice to the art they present.
Actually we do both artists and the people enjoying their art a favor by sticking it to the companies as much as possible.

In fact, im even going to go as far as to say that I hope that the videogame industry DOES take severe damage from piracy and that it collapses altogether.

*pause for listening to the sound of almost every user on the escapist's jaw drop to the floor*

However!.. This does NOT mean I hope that videogames should go away. And some of you might argue that hoping that the videogame industry should collapse is the same thing as hoping that videogames go away. And to that assesment I would like to add a resounding:

WRRRRRRRRRROOONG!

And I'll tell you why. First we have to start looking at it from the old "supply and demand" perspective. Clearly there's a demand for videogames. I mean people even acquire pirated copies in order to play, so the demand is pretty huge. The supply however is somewhat meagre in comparison, and it's not because "those poor videogame developers" are doing poorly or that piracy is really reducing their profits, but the fact that they enjoy a sweet position of being in control of the supply of quality videogames and the soulless corporate automatons working for these companies aren't keen to relinquish that position willingly.

But back to my main point: there is a demand for videogames. And this demand won't simply go away because the videogame industry collapses. It's like saying that people will lose interest in hearing music if the record labels all went bankrupt.

And we do know for a fact that there are creative people who like to create for the sake of creating, and if the "big business" corporations of the videogame-industry die out, it's these people that will supply the world with videogames.

And now you might say: "But making quality videogames costs HUGE SUMS of MONEY! Private people who don't have huge financial resources like the big companies will NEVER be able to produce anything of the same quality!"

And to that I'll answer: WRONG! (again)

In a world where huge corporate videogame productions have become redundant and an unsustainable businessmodel for a huge corporation to survive on, the interest in private videogame developing will increase. And there'll be a market ready to assist that interest, namely the market that develops tools in forms of both software and hardware for making videogames. You know, motion capture equipment, sound recording equipment, 3D-animation software, scripting software etc. etc.

Someone would realize that since it's no longer profitable for big corporations to have the monopoly over making videogames but that people want to make videogames of their own, then there would be a market for these tools needed to make videogames, which in turn become increasingly easy to use (after all, the current software and hardware is far from "user-friendly" and most of the time you require an education in using it, and since user-friendlyness sells well and have a large base of customers it will be a capitalist interest to develop such equipment that is progressively more and more user-friendly).

Eventually it'll reach a state where making your own videogames is about as difficult and "hard" to get into as blogging. And if you think about it, wouldn't that be a great artistic atmosphere? Where pretty much anyone can have artistic expression through the medium of videogames with minimal know-how of operating the necessary software and hardware required? Where (for example) a school project in artclass involving a staff of gradestudents could actually result in a videogame of rivalling quality of some of the most famous videogame titles today?

And what's better is that you'd probably never have to pay for videogames again, because piracy insures that it isn't a viable businessmodel trying to "lease" software the way they try to do today. So the videogames being produced would be produced by true artists who spend their time willingly and not because they're out to make a quick buck of their art.

And to you eventual naysayers decrying this scenario as some sort of wishful thinking: do remember that there was a time when only major corporations had access to technologies like the Wacom Tablet, and digital image editing with such tools and software like the latest version of photoshop was pretty much IMPOSSIBLE for a single private person to afford or even know how to use without taking some pretty advanced computer classes.

Today pretty much anyone can buy an afordable Wacom Tablet and with it produce digital drawings that only a few years ago was only within the realms of possibility for major corporate entities.

Also remember how we were once dependant on record companies to manufacture and distribute sound recordings on casettes, compact discs and the like. Whereas now, pretty much all storebought computers come with at least a DVD-burner as standard, and unrecorded discs barely cost anything at all.

The market will always somehow catch up with both our technological progression and our behaviour. These corporations of today who protest and try to stop piracy only do so because they are cranky about the fact that people are beginning to wise up that their current businessmodels are becoming outdated and that the companies themselves are beginning to become redundant.

And the fact of the matter is that in a truly capitalistic economy, no corporation that doesn't fill a purpose that people are willing to pay it for deserve to exist or prosper. Remember, it's the corporations that are supposed to be ours (the consumers') servants and not the other way around.

That said, the shareholders of big corporations try to make it the other way around. They do whatever they can to maintain and gain as much power as possible, even going so far as to try to influence politicians and world leaders to dance to their piping tune. Suing a lone individual for filesharing demanding that he or she pays several thousand dollars and effectively ruining their life with debts that they might never be able to pay off is just one of many such powermongering tactics. They want to take away the power from consumers and keep it for themselves. That's all there is to it. There's no "struggle" for being able to keep doing something as "innocent" as creating videogames. It's all about power and nothing else.

So we can either be their mindless slaves who support the corporations, picking on internet pirates and buy into their shit about videogames as an artform will "die" if piracy doesn't cease. Or we can call their bluff and let their powermongering corporate empires crash and burn and then see for ourselves that videogaming just won't "go away" just because corporations affiliated with videogame development does.
 

Entropyutd

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renegade7 said:
I mean, being compensated for your work is definitely nice, but isn't REAL art about the message and enjoyment of the viewers, not the money?
If I released an album/game/movie whatever, I would want to be paid, and whoever stole money from me to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. If that person has to have their pay cheques docked for the rest of their life, so what?

Everybody does it, but it doesn't make it right. I'm not an artist so don't give a crap but I am aware that when I download a movie/album or whatever that I am breaking the law and accept whatever consequences should the police in Sweden actually ever start caring about it and come calling.
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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Entropyutd said:
If I released an album/game/movie whatever, I would want to be paid, and whoever stole money from me to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Then you wouldn't be an artist, and you wouldn't have produced art. You would've only created a product with the intention to sell it.

I for one wish to see a climate where true artists are the ones producing the art, and a climate that is detrimental to the self-professed artists whose only goal with creating anything is to try and sell it for money.

Piracy promotes such a climate, therefore it's in artistry's interest to support piracy.
 

AperioContra

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
And to you eventual naysayers decrying this scenario as some sort of wishful thinking: do remember that there was a time when only major corporations had access to technologies like the Wacom Tablet, and digital image editing with such tools and software like the latest version of photoshop was pretty much IMPOSSIBLE for a single private person to afford or even know how to use without taking some pretty advanced computer classes.
Excuse me for being one of those naysayers, but this is all very altruistic, contingent on the idea that if the industry crashes and burns that the demand will still remain high. Remember that a growing percentage of gamers are Console gamers, and with out mainstream videogames consoles are no longer financially viable either. An entire market is gone, and with no financial backing, what is left is those willing to spend their time. Not to say there aren't games built like these, Eve online, the original runescape, several MMORPGs an genuinely fun flashgames have bee built with zero intention for profit return.

I would see with the crash of gaming what you're left with is a niche audience and the casual crowd, both severely reduced in the increasingly hostile market. Quick, what's the demand for Tabletop RPGs? How about street philosophers? Pointillism? Silent Movies? In each of these cases a relatively small audience exists for them, to the point that many people haven't heard of them as other than "in" jokes. The fact is the financial backing that a corporation allows for is the lifebreath of what would otherwise become dead mediums. Without a lot publishing companies many people have stopped reading literature. Whatever you believe in how the company conducts business, the fact that it does helps all the more.

In videogames the drive of the market has led to many great things. It driven the evolution of the processor and the power of the PC, Given demand for high fidelity software and inspired a generation to become interested in computers to one day become the artists we are talking about now. The software you are referring to which would make modern gaming as possible as blog entry would never see the light of day with out a corporation willing to buy it, after all corporations are often the largest contributors to projects like that.

In the end, I do not buy the idea that piracy will help the artistic spirit, it seems like a hollow justification and not a well though out one either. The idea of stealing to "stick it to the man" doesn't justify the act. And the idea that the corporations somehow deserve to fall because they ask for money for spending money for your entertainment... well it doesn't sit right with me. If I had spent my own money to make something that is enjoyable to a lot of people, damn right I would want something back for it, if not only to make up what I spent or attain more assets to make more.
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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AperioContra said:
The idea of stealing to "stick it to the man" doesn't justify the act. And the idea that the corporations somehow deserve to fall because they ask for money for spending money for your entertainment... well it doesn't sit right with me.
Im not saying corporations deserve to fall because they demand getting paid.

Im saying that corporations clinging desperately to outdated businessmodels and try to stand in the way of technological progress because said progress would mean that said outdated businessmodels wouldn't be as profitable anymore deserve to fall (and they will, because that's how capitalism works).

If you want to stay in business as a corporation you better adapt and try to serve the needs that you can reasonably charge people money for, otherwise you have no right to exist as a corporate entity anymore.

Consumers don't owe corporations any gratitude for simply doing what is expected of the corporations to do. And corporations certainly shouldn't have the right to fight consumers and individual people with lawsuits, just because consumers find ways to enjoy similar products that the corporations try to sell for free and that technological progression strives towards that.

You could compare these companies to a broom-manufacturer. The vaccum-cleaner is invented and people use it, making brooms pretty much redundant as cleaning-tools. Now if the broom company were to act as the copyright-whores of today, they would pretty much try to have vaccum-cleaners outlawed and sue people for using vacuum-cleaners just because the vacuum-cleaners hurt their profits.

In a capitalistic enviroment, the broom-manufacturer should either considering switching gears and try to manufacture something else that there is an actual need for, or respect the fact that their ways have become outdated and that their business is completely redundant.

That might sound harsh, but that's capitalism for ya.
 

SirDoom

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Zetion said:
Copyright Infringement to counterfeiting. That's a pretty big jump. The difference being that you devalue other people's assets by producing your own money. If you buy a song, and I buy a song, and then I copy the song, the songs value doesn't change. When there are endless copies of something being sold for a set price, you can't devalue them the way counterfeiting devalues the currency being counterfeited.
Ok, now I think I'm on your side of this, but you're missing one key point.

Yes, pirating something like a song doesn't devalue it to you, because you can't sell it. Imagine the "download a bike" example. If I somehow copy someone's bike, I now have a free bike, and someone else gets to keep their bike. I've caused no harm to him. In fact, barring the possibility that I try to sell my bike at the same time he tries to sell his and take his buyer, my action never hurts him at all. Songs and (PC)games avoid this altogether by making it impossible to sell them back in the first place. So, win-win?

From the consumer perspective, yes. From the evil corporate perspective, no. See, company A bought the rights to said song, and now they're charging $1 per download. In a no-piracy situation, each song is valued by them at this $1. However, let's say for every person that buys it, one person pirates it. Now the "value" of the song to the company is only half of that dollar, since for every copy of the song out there they have only made $0.50. When you're talking about millions of downloads, that adds up.

(That being said, I do miss the days when you could burn your friend a copy of that new CD you just bought, and trade it to him for a copy of that other new cd he just bought without being jumped on by several executive types and producers halfway down the street)
 

pspman45

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because if there was no penalty for piracy, then there would be no reason not to do it.
 

Scout Tactical

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Monxerot said:
Yes but using morality as an argument is rather retarded and has no valid point to it
and if you seriously are forming opinions about this then you need to rethink
It absolutely blows my mind how stupid people can be on the internet. Now, I don't want to impose, because you're probably just a kid, and you didn't think about what you said before you pressed "post", but consider, for a moment, that all of ethics and moral philosophy is based on morality as an argument.

Your very right to express your wrong and idiotic opinion is guaranteed to you because of morality. You insult those who campaigned to give you the right to free speech by calling them retards. These were men of moral character and ethics, and made decisions based on what they thought was right. By your definition: retards.

Every philosopher from Gandhi to Martin Luther King, to Confucias, to Thomas Aquinas, to Gottfried Leibniz, to Epicurus, to Immanual Kant, to Plato and Aristotle. All of them are retards, apparently.
 

Robert Ewing

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If people don't pay for games. Where does the developer get their cash to make the next one? Savvy.
 

Metaphysic

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Keltrick said:
To everyone saying "if you're a REAL artist" or "if I was an artist" and essentially saying they would give away music for free, as an added option 'for the enjoyment of fans.' No. That is hilarious, but no. If you were an artist who took pride in their work what you REALLY would be thinking is "after putting so much blood, sweat, and tears into my medium, weeks without sleep, fighting to get published and recognized, while perfecting my style, wouldn't it be nice if I got something out of it. You know, like doing it for a living."

Music costs money to be made, especially in our music industry. It does not make an artist somehow less of one, because they want to be reimbursed in some way for the vast amount of time, effort and creativity they poured into their work. Musicians deserve payment for their talent, if they would like it, just as home decorators, dental technicians, and carpenters do for theirs. If you tell a dental technician you're paying for your replaced teeth by 'enjoying their art work', they will laugh at you.
It's nice to make money off of art, but it isn't necessary. I make music alongside my shitty part-time job, and give it away for free with no intent to ever tour. I burn Cds and hand-make the jackets for them, and give them out to friends of friends and I've even given out copies off of a street corner. I believe music should be free, with the option to pay, but I can see why someone would want to at least supplement their income a bit.

Interestingly, a lot of underground electronic artists (especially on Warp Records) only release albums when they need a bit of cash, and don't care so much to get music out there unless it's at a show.
 

LilithSlave

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Rawne1980 said:
Do you honestly believe those "artists" do it for free?
Eh, the good ones do if they can.

There's also the fact that piracy is unstoppable and the majority of people smart enough to do it, do it. You can say "that doesn't make it ethical". But the fact of the matter is people consume and want to consume more media that they can afford to pay off before they die. And they certainly are expected to consume more media than they afford. When's the last time you were insulted for not playing a video game? Yesterday, most likely. That's our norm. You can say it's "not ethical" baselessly all you want, but it is a reality of today's industry. People consume and pirate vast quantities of media. And they still buy. Because people liking buying the media they enjoy, and don't so much as like giving a youtube video they hate a view. Piracy doesn't stop people from buying things, it stops people from buying things that they hate.

Ironically, all this talk of "if you like something, you hate the piracy of it" a lot of people do, is offset by the fact that people who hate something, are the people who make false copyright flags of things on youtube all of the time. They don't want something to be pirated, they don't want it to be available to enjoy and spread.

And even worse when people blindly repeat things like "I'm tired of people who defend piracy. It's justification of their bad behavior". It's not justification, they're nothing wrong with piracy and calling people who defend piracy very well as justifying something. On the same token, I could blame people who attack piracy as justifying unjust copyright laws. Piracy isn't unrightly justified. It's just fine. What doesn't deserve justifying is copyright laws.
 

AperioContra

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
You could compare these companies to a broom-manufacturer. The vaccum-cleaner is invented and people use it, making brooms pretty much redundant as cleaning-tools. Now if the broom company were to act as the copyright-whores of today, they would pretty much try to have vaccum-cleaners outlawed and sue people for using vacuum-cleaners just because the vacuum-cleaners hurt their profits.
Well, to elaborate on the tortured metaphor, it would be more like a broom factor and some sullied ponce stealing their brooms. Or rather reproducing them and selling them under the broom-makers name. You see we're not talking about them becoming obsolete, we're talking about one stealing from the other. As for saying their using an obsolete business model? I don't understand whee you're coming from.

They make the game, they sell the game, you buy the game. They give plenty of channels to buy the game, incentives to buy the game. None of this is obsolete, you will find almost all businesses operate off of the same business model. Make, set price, sell. If the game doesn't sell off that price, lower it until it does sell.

And even if we could fault them for a business model, this argument would be more effective and mean something if pirates were in legitimate competition with the game companies. As it stands pirates are simply stealing the code and distributing it. If we were talking about two businesses with two different strategies, then I would be inclined to agree with you, the one with the crappier model will fail, tough luck that's the nature of the beast. But as it is this isn't business against business, this is one side stealing from the other and pretending to have a moral agenda about it.

The reason we have lawsuits in this country is to maintain civil order and rights. If the company was stealing from your bank account or preventing you from gaining money and you wanted to sue them for it, I think it's well within your right and I'd like to think I would be defending that right as much as I defend their rights now. Their not suing because another company or even another person in taking their business, their suing because the other person of willful volition stole their source code and distributed it with out intent on compensating the preagreed upon price. That's tough, but that's the law.
 

LilithSlave

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Actually, I think that 3D printing is to soon make a lot of those metaphors a reality. There are a lot of people claiming that 3D printing will not take long to emerge to the market.

And it will become the new piracy. Sharing copyrighted 3D objects online that might hurt sales many may worry. As the anti-piracy lot say, "why buy you children's toys when you can just download them online for free?".

And I remember somebody even said "yes, that type of thing would be wrong. Even if it were food, because companies that sell specific food would go out of business. Yes, they might, but the tradeoff would be that world hunger might could finally truly die if it were cheaper to copy food than to grow it yourself. Copying is a great technological thing that should be spread to as many things as possible.

So to bring back the broom example, we can already download and duplicate brooms. It just hasn't reached the masses yet. Typical piracy as people on the internet today use it, file-sharing, it would not be like someone stealing their brooms, or reproducing them and selling them. Piracy and it's digital distribution in comparison to real life, physically holdable goods, would be comparable to someone buying a broom from the store, putting it in the 3D scanner to be analyzed, and putting the file on a torrent tracker for free. So that other people may download the 3D scanned file and print out the broom on their 3D printer. Something that is thought to happen in our near future.

In the end piracy is not an evil so much as scarcity is an evil. Scarcity is a wrong and unnecessary evil, and copyrights only serve to uphold scarcity.