Why do people hate the army?

[loc978]

Not being disrespectful, but the Irish defence forces has very few instances of things like this. Not because we are better but because our guys don't get put under the same pressure and demands that the US military does.

That's not going to be the most of it. Most soldiers get lessons on dealing with stress, recognizing symptoms of psychological problems.

US soldier training is soldier 'this is rifle. bullets come out on that end. done.' They're only trained for combat and not much more.

For instance learning about how Afghan allegiances work? No way. With as a result that if you drop them in Afghanistan, they can't comprehend the people, everything is the great evil unknown and they stress a lot more as a result. If I'm in a village where the elder pledged his support and the majority tribe is loyal too, while there's no hostile warlords or something, I don't feel at risk at all. Why? Nobody who means anything is going to attack you, and if foreign fighters came, you'd notice by the village militia gathering or warnings sent to you asking that you take them on.

That makes it a lot more comfortable to be in any type of hostile place or warzone.


Still I think the being American in itself helps too. US culture is very uniform and conformistic. That leaves people less open to other systems of society and possibilities. The way religion is regarded in Afghanistan is just about the mortal enemy of everything I stand for.
Yet, if someone tells me searching houses can be a grave offense if you intrude into the woman's part of the house, or even worse, charge in so fast you see them without a veil, that's a possibility that exists. For people raised with the idea that there's only one culture, the own culture... Not so much.

That's... not strictly true. Basic training is just that- basic. I had a lot of training as to the conflicts within Iraqi culture, a crash course in language and quite a bit of etiquette before I landed in Iraq... and I was just a helicopter tech.

For civilians, it's more true than not, but that's kind of a cultural isolation thing.

 

[GundamSentinel]

Im only a reservist, so i can't speak for frontline soldiers.

I nearly got in a fistfight tonight with someone who cheapened what the Irish army does, and belittled their contribution to UN peace keeping mission by labeling them mercenaries.

They broadened their vague assertions to all western armies and then had the gall to lecture me on patriotism, whilst at the same time belittling what little bit i have contributed when they have done nothing. This wasn't someone trolling me for fun, but a genuine arsehole who hates the army but is more manly than them..... how is christ's name do you deal/educate a person like that and not willingly murder them?

He called me a cheerleader, and you know what... fine.... I'll happily laud to everyone the contributions the defence forces make, ill readily admit im only a reservist sandbag scumbag.... A civilian can only contribute so much, but what i can do, i bloody well do. Why should i be ashamed of that, and why should i be ashamed of the Irish army? Why should anyone be ashamed of their army?

Me, I don't hate the army and I'm not ashamed of it, but to me they're just people doing their jobs, nothing more, nothing less, and certainly not heroes or inherently more valuable to the nation. When was the last time soldiers from your country (or mine for that matter) actually died in defense of their country? Probably WWII. It can be a very dangerous job, sure, and maybe underpaid (though I highly doubt it, as I've seen what benefits soldiers in many countries get beside their pay), but just a respectable job. I really doubt more than a few truly choose the job just because of patriotism (see how patriotic they are if you lower their pay), but more because of lack of money or lack of other education/qualifications (in my country anyway). Nothing wrong with that, and I have respect for people who choose that career, but I know jobs that are even less rewarding and less rewarded than being in the army.

Politics don't play a big role in my judgment of soldiers. I'm sure there are more than a few with very misguided views about the government and the job they're doing (bringing democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan? Are there still people who believe that?). But that doesn't make me judge soldiers, because there are stupid people everywhere. Patriotism has very little real value in this day and age, as the army has become a political and economic force, not one of protection for the nation. Whichever way you turn it, you're not protecting your country, you're protecting its interests.

 

[supermariner]

I don't think people hate the army. I think they hate what they do
Personally i respect each and every member of the British armed forces for the tough job they do
But i hate everything about their profession. If the army was used for defence then sure, i'd be grand with it
But at the minute we seem to be obsessed with forcing our personal moral standards and democracy on countries that are none of our fucking business. It's the interference, like we somehow know better than them and so need to help them change, that i hate. The army itself i have no problem with. It's how governments use them i object to

 

[Rawne1980]

What section of the military were you serving in?

2nd Battalion, Parachute Regiment.

We were so intelligent we jumped out of perfectly good planes for a living. Why wait for them to land to get off...

 

[flamingjimmy]

Being a soldier is only admirable if you are in a just conflict.

People talk about 'serving their country' but in actuality in most cases today they are only serving the elite few at the top.

 

[katsumoto03]

I'm certainly not against the army. I am, however, against the attitude that many people have about it. I hate how people treat it like it's some sort of holy work.

Overall, I'm against war and against the support of war, even as far as to support the army. An army is a tool that should only be used to defend your nation. And I don't see a whole lot of actual defense anymore.

 

[DJjaffacake]

Handing them weapons and telling them it's fine to kill people if they feel threatened?

I don't know about the US Army, but the rules of engagement in Afghanistan are incredibly strict for British troops, they definitely can't just shoot people who they think are threatening.

When was the last time soldiers actually died in defense of their country?

Well the South Ossetia War for one, in 2008.

 

[Poster1234]

My feeling is, I know that soldiers usually mean well, but I really feel like they are simply being used by big corporations which are getting insanely rich through wars, especially in the Middle-East.

Yes, I know most soldiers hope to befriend the civilians and to bring them democracy and education, but the fact is you simply can't force someone into democracy and free speech. It took the western world hundreds of years, lives and tears. You simply can't expect them to think like you just because "it's better for them", even if it really is. Many people in this region are still being ruled by KINGS, and have no idea how an election would even work.

Moreover, I'd like to say I'm not talking about conspiracy theories when I'm talking about the coprorations : the fact is, the contracts for reconstructing Irak were signed before the bombs began to fall. They had already planned to rebuild civilian structures as well, which means the US had to bomb known civilian targets.

Finally, about soldiers at home, I have nothing agains them, when they aren't waving their guns into my face. What I mean is, I live in France, I have been going through the same subway station every day for years, and recently they have started putting military patrols in that station. I'm sorry, I know it's "for my own protection and all", but I simply don't feel safe when twenty dudes in military gear surround me without a word, push me against a wall and then proceed to simply ask me for my ID card. Sue me. This happened.

The thing is, soldiers are also simple human beings. Only with guns, which are known to make people do stupid things. During my identity check, this one guy, who was barely older than me (I wasn't even 18 at the time), aimed at me when I reached inside my bag to get my ID. WHAT ? What I mean is I was threatened to be SHOT by some guy for simply going through a place I go through every day of my life, in my own country.

My final point is, I this only happened once to me, for one reason : I'm white. I have seen countless persons being checked again and again, just because, of course, arab or black = terrorist.
Now, how the hell do you think, say, a moderate muslim, who thinks all this "being opressed" thing terrorists flaunt about is exagerated, reacts when he is treated like a terrorist every fucking day ?
You know about people who pirate games to fight agains draconian DRM ? Same thing here.

I know soldiers are trying to do good, but they simply shouldn't be used as a police force. Anywhere.

 

[ablac]

We need sticks because others have sticks, however the guy actually willing to beat someone with the stick at least capable of doing so is pretty dodgy. That was my thinking. I dont hate the army but if you are ready to kill then you arent normal. I see the need but that doesnt mean i respect the people who will fulfill that need. I dont hate the army and I feel few do, I dont like em either. You kill people, I cant respect that.

 

[GundamSentinel]

When was the last time soldiers actually died in defense of their country?

Well the South Ossetia War for one, in 2008.

Yeah, but the Irish (like OP), Americans, or Dutch (like me), French, Germans, you name it, haven't had to defend their own country in decades.

 

[Iron Criterion]

Im only a reservist, so i can't speak for frontline soldiers.

I nearly got in a fistfight tonight with someone who cheapened what the Irish army does, and belittled their contribution to UN peace keeping mission by labeling them mercenaries.

They broadened their vague assertions to all western armies and then had the gall to lecture me on patriotism, whilst at the same time belittling what little bit i have contributed when they have done nothing. This wasn't someone trolling me for fun, but a genuine arsehole who hates the army but is more manly than them..... how is christ's name do you deal/educate a person like that and not willingly murder them?

He called me a cheerleader, and you know what... fine.... I'll happily laud to everyone the contributions the defence forces make, ill readily admit im only a reservist sandbag scumbag.... A civilian can only contribute so much, but what i can do, i bloody well do. Why should i be ashamed of that, and why should i be ashamed of the Irish army? Why should anyone be ashamed of their army?

Because everyone is an edgy internet bad-ass these days and there's hardly anything 'edgier' than slating the army for doing their job and protecting us, all from the comfort of your armchair.

Frankly I respect the army - to a point.

 

[Total LOLige]

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I know the difference between patriotism and nationalism, what I meant was that people that hate the army tend to view patriotism as nationalism. I should have been clearer.

 

[Roggen Bread]

The government is corrupt, yes, but the Taliban isn't much of a force nowdays. You have any number of petty warlords, tribal factions and criminal groups with lots of weapons fighting each other and ISAF troops (you could argue that the government is just one more of them), but they aren't the Taliban as existed before the war.

Oh, and they didn't purge Germany of Nazis that thoroughly. Very few of them were prosecuted for war crimes, a number of them ended up overseas, and there were issues with the history of the people involved in the 1972 games.

I'm no expert on the whole Afghanistan-Talbin buissness.
All I read in the newspapers (that is, the serious ones, not the boulevard press) is, that the immense influence of the Taliban is making it hard to fight them efficiently. The population is scared, they believe, that the Taliban will rise to power very very quickly, after the ISAF is gone, and will punish, and already do, any collaborateurs.There was this one US-Military paper that was leaked just some weeks ago. It said, that they assume, a civil war will break out pretty fast, and the taliban will seize power again.

On the Germany buissness. Well of course they didn't. You cannot watch into everyone's head and arrest if Nazi. And there are issues with people's histories even TODAY. Just look at Günther Grass and his poem. It's like 3-4 weeks ago.
But as a matter of fact, the Nazis vanished de facto from German politics. The party most to the right, that we tolerate here (and they've been struggling to ban it for decades) is the NPD. It is not even as right as the republicans are! It still is a bunch of brown scumbags. If they try to demonstrate with like 200 people there are THOUSANDS of people opposing them.

Bullshit. A civilian attacking a soldier isn't treated as a civilian. ISAF troops aren't supposed to kill civilians for the hell of it, but they are allowed to kill civilians as an unfortunate side effect of their mission, to say nothing of killing people attacking them.

Imagine a missile hitting, say, Khabul. 30 civ's die in the process. This would be a MAJOR scandal.
Would you like me to post a picture from Cologne or Dresden after the war? Or statistics of civilian fatalaties? This is NOTHING.
I am not saying, you should nuke down the whole country.
But it is a completely different kind of warfare. And say what you will. It is less effective in inducing fear of opposing the attacking forces.

By attacking I did not mean someone shooting at a soldier, or assaulting with a knife. I'm talking of throwing a rotten egg, a rock or insulting them. If you did that to an american soldier in the late 40's you would have been in pretty fucking huge trouble.

This is something, that goes unpunished today. (Still not saying, they should just shoot anyone, who looks at them funny)

 

[Iron Criterion]

We need sticks because others have sticks, however the guy actually willing to beat someone with the stick at least capable of doing so is pretty dodgy. That was my thinking. I dont hate the army but if you are ready to kill then you arent normal. I see the need but that doesnt mean i respect the people who will fulfill that need. I dont hate the army and I feel few do, I dont like em either. You kill people, I cant respect that.

You have to undergo a lot of training and mental reconditioning first you know. 99% of people who join the army do so to protect their people and nation. Only a small percentage of those will see combat on a regular basis, and an even smaller percentage will actually kill people.

 

[DJjaffacake]

When was the last time soldiers actually died in defense of their country?

Well the South Ossetia War for one, in 2008.

Yeah, but the Irish (like OP), Americans, or Dutch (like me), French, Germans, you name it, haven't had to defend their own country in decades.

True, but then, "When was the last time soldiers from a major western military power like the USA or Germany actually died in defence of their country?" would be a better question, since it doesn't generalise so much. Edit: And in defence of the Irish, their armed forces are tiny anyway.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

I don't hate the military, I just dislike the glorification of it. To me, a soldier has a job like anyone else, I don't look up to them more than anyone else. Not all soldiers are heroes by definition, but I guess it puts them in a position where they have an opportunity to become heroes. The only time I begin to hate soldier is when they expect to be treated differently.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm no expert on the whole Afghanistan-Talbin buissness.
All I read in the newspapers (that is, the serious ones, not the boulevard press) is, that the immense influence of the Taliban is making it hard to fight them efficiently. The population is scared, they believe, that the Taliban will rise to power very very quickly, after the ISAF is gone, and will punish, and already do, any collaborateurs.There was this one US-Military paper that was leaked just some weeks ago. It said, that they assume, a civil war will break out pretty fast, and the taliban will seize power again.

Ah, well, that's because the word "Taliban" is now being applied to "anyone armed who opposes ISAF", both for political reasons, and because the situation is too complicated for a nice soundbite.

Mind you, the practical difference between the Taliban and certain other groups might be up for debate.

On the Germany buissness. Well of course they didn't. You cannot watch into everyone's head and arrest if Nazi. And there are issues with people's histories even TODAY. Just look at Günther Grass and his poem. It's like 3-4 weeks ago.
But as a matter of fact, the Nazis vanished de facto from German politics. The party most to the right, that we tolerate here (and they've been struggling to ban it for decades) is the NPD. It is not even as right as the republicans are! It still is a bunch of brown scumbags. If they try to demonstrate with like 200 people there are THOUSANDS of people opposing them.

Ah, you mean a purge of the politics, that's fair enough (though it wasn't as complete as it could have been, everyone was too worried about the next war with the USSR to concern themselves with the tail end of the last one).

Imagine a missile hitting, say, Khabul. 30 civ's die in the process. This would be a MAJOR scandal.
Would you like me to post a picture from Cologne or Dresden after the war? Or statistics of civilian fatalaties? This is NOTHING.
I am not saying, you should nuke down the whole country.
But it is a completely different kind of warfare. And say what you will. It is less effective in inducing fear of opposing the attacking forces.

By attacking I did not mean someone shooting at a soldier, or assaulting with a knife. I'm talking of throwing a rotten egg, a rock or insulting them. If you did that to an american soldier in the late 40's you would have been in pretty fucking huge trouble.

This is something, that goes unpunished today. (Still not saying, they should just shoot anyone, who looks at them funny)

Ah, ok, misunderstood there.

But, I'd challenge that it's less effective in causing fear. Simply upping the casualty count isn't enough, all it does is make the locals hate you, which is exactly what you don't want.

By comparison, in Vietnam, the US military killed massive amounts of civilians. Less than in places like Dresden, of course, but still very high. This didn't frighten their opponents into submission.

[small]As an aside, I woudln't recommened throwing rocks at US soldiers in Afghanistan. If they can see it's a rock, they almost certainly won't shoot you, but if they think it's a grenade, well...[/small]

The enemy in Afghanistan cannot function without the support of the locals, nor can ISAF cannot defeat them without it. It is absolutely essential for each side to gain their support, and undermine their support of the enemy. Committing atrocities against them is playing straight into your enemies hands...a decent way of getting the locals support is to provoke your enemy into attacking the civilians.