Why do people pick on JRPGs?
- Thread starter Fallen-Angel Risen-Demon
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Three theories:
1. JRPG fanboys (and girls, don't you lie to me) are annoying twits who think anything is awesome so long as it came out of Japan, land of Pocky, pedophilia and weird porn, regardless of how good it actually is (see: anyone who claims to have enjoyed FFVIII, X, X-2, XII and XIII) and are acting that way as sort of a counter-measure against them.
2. Fans of Western RPGs who have been spoiled silly by Bioware and friends giving them nice things like choice and flexibility and allowing them to actually impose their own choices on the game world.
3. Yahtzee does it, therefore it is cool.
Personally, I only hate on Final Fantasy, given how it is pretty much everything I hate about JRPGs. Casually browsing over my previous history will reveal that I am a huge fan of Star Ocean: The Second Story and the Persona series, so I'm a bit more charitable towards the genre.
1. JRPG fanboys (and girls, don't you lie to me) are annoying twits who think anything is awesome so long as it came out of Japan, land of Pocky, pedophilia and weird porn, regardless of how good it actually is (see: anyone who claims to have enjoyed FFVIII, X, X-2, XII and XIII) and are acting that way as sort of a counter-measure against them.
2. Fans of Western RPGs who have been spoiled silly by Bioware and friends giving them nice things like choice and flexibility and allowing them to actually impose their own choices on the game world.
3. Yahtzee does it, therefore it is cool.
Personally, I only hate on Final Fantasy, given how it is pretty much everything I hate about JRPGs. Casually browsing over my previous history will reveal that I am a huge fan of Star Ocean: The Second Story and the Persona series, so I'm a bit more charitable towards the genre.
1. It's Renasonce of fate not Renissance we arn't talking about history here.Zenn3k said:
2. FFX was a emotion filled wonder and I have yet to find a game that has as well rounded characters as, emotion invoking story and as fun gameplay, well, apart from KH.
3. What did you find bad about KH?!
Star Ocean: The Second Story, Persona 3 and Persona 4 would like to disagree with you.Zenn3k said:
1. So we can't have a opinion now?eatenbyagrue said:
2. This isn't about WRPGs.
3. So people only do stuff because Yahtzee says so?
Probably because they're usually quite long.
All games make you do the same thing over and over, you just notice it more in JRPG's because they make you do it over and over and over and over.
Personally, I almost see it as a good thing. Something to keep me occupied without having to repeat the main story.
All games make you do the same thing over and over, you just notice it more in JRPG's because they make you do it over and over and over and over.
Personally, I almost see it as a good thing. Something to keep me occupied without having to repeat the main story.
1. You can, and nobody is stopping you, but be aware that it also means everyone else gets their own opinion. That's how this "free will" thing works.Fallen-Angel Risen-Demon said:
2. My bad. I forgot to clarify how the more...shall we say "spirited" people on the WRPG side of the fence tend to see things.
3. Please, that's complaint numero uno about his fans. From Yahtzee himself, I might add.
Western RPGs:realistic settings and designs,limited gameplay,on the rails pacing/environments(this BTW makes FF13 a western RPG)
Eastern RPGS:Unrealistic settings and designs,limited gameplay,a focus on needless grind,limited pacing and environments.
I really don't see the difference, both are flawed both have occasional gems.
Eastern RPGS:Unrealistic settings and designs,limited gameplay,a focus on needless grind,limited pacing and environments.
I really don't see the difference, both are flawed both have occasional gems.
Where does a game like Star Ocean or Tales of* fall into, where the combat is king, and more fast paced than anything you find in WRPG's and is extremely varied and rewarding, and where grinding is optional to give newbie players an edge if they need it?veloper said:
Or Demon's Souls, where combat is still fast paced and fluid, but requires actual coordination and tactics, and careful approach of every foe, rather than just bosses. Tell me the name of a WRPG better than Demon's Souls and I tell you that you are wrong.
The thing with FPS's is that they're generally pretty intense, and if they're good then there's still a lot of variety even if what you're doing boils down to shooty-shooty. The fact that they're essentially repetitive is unimportant, because when you're playing - good - FPSs you're never thinking about "I've just done the same thing for the past 8 hours of gameplay".
FF13 is incredibly linear, and th eonly real gameplay is the combat. That's not a WRPG.ZippyDSMlee said:
Fair enough, he still got it wrong...Belladonnah said:Actually, it's Resonance of fate, not Renasonce, we aren't about some pretentious DJ's name here.Fallen-Angel Risen-Demon said:
Sorry, couldn't resist
SQUEE!
The reason JRPG's are such easy targets is because they come up with shit like say...an rpg where you spank girls in hell.
It's still a hell of a game, go TEAM LEANNE.Fallen-Angel Risen-Demon said:Fair enough, he still got it wrong...Belladonnah said:Actually, it's Resonance of fate, not Renasonce, we aren't about some pretentious DJ's name here.Fallen-Angel Risen-Demon said:
Sorry, couldn't resist
SQUEE!
The 2 biggest complaints people seem to have around JRPGs is that its often turn-based combat and the rigid story means they think it shouldn't have the label RPG. Personally I don't see the problem with turn-based combat as it adds an extra layer to the combat rather then just "Spam attack X". Remember, chess is a turn-based game, but you don't see anyone trying to change that.
The RPG label is a fairly valid complaint. Unfortunately its a name thats now a part of the public conciousness so it won't be changed anytime soon. However, if they were instead called JSTGs (Japanese Story Telling Games), less people would probably have a problem with them.
Personally, I play JRPGs because I actually enjoy the varied storys (compare the story of Square's last 5 RPGs to each other then look at Biowares) and I find the level grind as a nice way to relax.
The RPG label is a fairly valid complaint. Unfortunately its a name thats now a part of the public conciousness so it won't be changed anytime soon. However, if they were instead called JSTGs (Japanese Story Telling Games), less people would probably have a problem with them.
Personally, I play JRPGs because I actually enjoy the varied storys (compare the story of Square's last 5 RPGs to each other then look at Biowares) and I find the level grind as a nice way to relax.
Defending JRPGs to the death blindly is not a good position.
Tons of Japanese magzines, even the fabled Famitsu, have run articles on how they feel the JRPG is stagnating and not evolving enough. Yōichi Wada himself is even really disappointed with the JRPG market and seems to be taking a strong liking to western games for their creative influences and ability to take risk.
I just hate people on this site who take every perfectly valid criticism of the bulk of JRPGs and then do what is the equivalent of playing the race card: Just saying I hate them because they're Japanese and I'll never understand. If the Japanese can admit they're having problems with innovation in their games why the hell can't western gamers?
I LIKE JRPGs. I like games from Japan; basically I like any game that's good so long as it's a good game, it does not matter where it comes from. But to admit something like Tales of Vesperia did not follow the JRPG formula pretty much exactly is lying to yourself and as someone who has played JRPGs since FF3 (just FF here), I find this a fault.
We'll always have our Demon's Souls (favorite game of 2009 by the way) but for every Demon's Souls there is a dozen Star Oceans to pollute the waters of the JRPG reputaiton.
As for the rest of your article, I DO criticize other genres. I haven't bought an FPS in a long while as they're all basically the same damn game. I'm not going to buy Super Street Fighter 4 as it's basically an expansion pack with updates to SF4, and I really thought Starcraft 2 was a lesser game for clinging way too closely to the first out of sheer fear they'd mess up the Korean E-sport community (which largely just stayed playing SC1, good work Blizzard!)
Tons of Japanese magzines, even the fabled Famitsu, have run articles on how they feel the JRPG is stagnating and not evolving enough. Yōichi Wada himself is even really disappointed with the JRPG market and seems to be taking a strong liking to western games for their creative influences and ability to take risk.
I just hate people on this site who take every perfectly valid criticism of the bulk of JRPGs and then do what is the equivalent of playing the race card: Just saying I hate them because they're Japanese and I'll never understand. If the Japanese can admit they're having problems with innovation in their games why the hell can't western gamers?
I LIKE JRPGs. I like games from Japan; basically I like any game that's good so long as it's a good game, it does not matter where it comes from. But to admit something like Tales of Vesperia did not follow the JRPG formula pretty much exactly is lying to yourself and as someone who has played JRPGs since FF3 (just FF here), I find this a fault.
We'll always have our Demon's Souls (favorite game of 2009 by the way) but for every Demon's Souls there is a dozen Star Oceans to pollute the waters of the JRPG reputaiton.
As for the rest of your article, I DO criticize other genres. I haven't bought an FPS in a long while as they're all basically the same damn game. I'm not going to buy Super Street Fighter 4 as it's basically an expansion pack with updates to SF4, and I really thought Starcraft 2 was a lesser game for clinging way too closely to the first out of sheer fear they'd mess up the Korean E-sport community (which largely just stayed playing SC1, good work Blizzard!)
I agree... I'm halfway through it at the moment...Belladonnah said:It's still a hell of a game, go TEAM LEANNE.Fallen-Angel Risen-Demon said:Fair enough, he still got it wrong...Belladonnah said:Actually, it's Resonance of fate, not Renasonce, we aren't about some pretentious DJ's name here.Fallen-Angel Risen-Demon said:
Sorry, couldn't resist
SQUEE!
And tomorrow I am being forced to go on holiday... *sad face*.
For me, too much cultural subtext in modern JRPGs anymore. In many Japanese-developed games, in fact. I mean, hell, the Metal Gear Solids are examples too. Oddly worded dialogue; weird hand gestures; all the non-verbal communication that is used in Japan that no one would understand over here.
Prime example (from Metal Gear Solid 3):
If you've played it, during the scene on the rope bridge at the end of Virtuous mission, the first attempt to rescue Sokolove. The dialogue with the boss, she kicks Snake's ass in CQC, then VOlgin walks onto the bridge to kick some ass. As soon as he steps onto the bridge, he says "Kuwabara, Kuwabara."
Well, unless you go looking that crap up, it kinda makes a non-Asian player think "Well, wtf is that about?" Actually, it's some Japanese superstition, you're supposed to say "Kuwabara, kuwabara" to ward off lightning strikes. Possibly intedned as foreshadowing to Volgin's lightning powers, partly as character development; I don't know.
I do know that a Russian colonel in Soviet special forces probably wouldn't be given to believing Japanese superstition, and I do know that not many people outside of Japan would know what the hell the "kuwabara" crap meant without googling it.
Anyway, wall of text.
TL;DR version:
Most of the JRPGs I've played recently have to much subtle Japanese cultural commonalities hidden in the dialogue, cutscenes, and plot, to the point that all the weird little monologues, hand gestures, and weird plot twists confuse the crap out of me.
Prime example (from Metal Gear Solid 3):
If you've played it, during the scene on the rope bridge at the end of Virtuous mission, the first attempt to rescue Sokolove. The dialogue with the boss, she kicks Snake's ass in CQC, then VOlgin walks onto the bridge to kick some ass. As soon as he steps onto the bridge, he says "Kuwabara, Kuwabara."
Well, unless you go looking that crap up, it kinda makes a non-Asian player think "Well, wtf is that about?" Actually, it's some Japanese superstition, you're supposed to say "Kuwabara, kuwabara" to ward off lightning strikes. Possibly intedned as foreshadowing to Volgin's lightning powers, partly as character development; I don't know.
I do know that a Russian colonel in Soviet special forces probably wouldn't be given to believing Japanese superstition, and I do know that not many people outside of Japan would know what the hell the "kuwabara" crap meant without googling it.
Anyway, wall of text.
TL;DR version:
Most of the JRPGs I've played recently have to much subtle Japanese cultural commonalities hidden in the dialogue, cutscenes, and plot, to the point that all the weird little monologues, hand gestures, and weird plot twists confuse the crap out of me.