Why do people say that Capitalism is good?

[Grant Sturman]

Thats

Spoiler

I've read several pages of this and noticed one thing: you seem to be arguing against the established form of capitalism based on the assumption that people are perfect.

Before you argue against that, let me explain: it all lies in this quote from you:

My idea is an integrated system of Capitalism and Communism where needs are provided by the state and entrepreneurial and entertainment industries are controlled by the market. It's not as flashy or lucrative as Capitalism, but its more stable and still supports progress.

Now, the problem here is that if your needs are provided by the state, nobody has any real reason to work harder than anyone else. Thus, everybody works to the minimum of their abilities, which actually deters progress. We're looking at an entrepreneurial and entertainment industry where the people are liable, so the obvious course of action is to get a menial government job so you won't be held liable for the costs of your actions. Nobody wants to be a brain surgeon if their living arrangements are the same as the trash collector. How are you going to get people into the medical professions?

Also, it takes money to, say, start up a new business. Given that your system is 'not as lucrative', when someone manages to get together the money for his new entrepreneurship, why is he going to try to start his business?

If your response to either question is "to get more money for what he wants", then your system is extremely close to the current form of capitalism, to the point where you may seem to be arguing against yourself. If your response is "for progress" or "for the betterment of mankind", then you are an idealist and don't understand how much people consider 'risk v. reward' before making a choice.

Thank you for saying this! Thats my idea as well.
The best example of the Capitalism vs Communism is the Cold war. At the end of the war in the early 90's most industry in Russia and former USSR country were smoke stack industrys, which means they were low tech and took many people to produce a small amount of product. At he end of the war there were only 330,000 computers in all of Russia. In the U.S there were about 50,000,000 computers, not only that but the industry was much more advanced in the U.S ( and its allies ). The GDP per person, was much higher in the U.S than in Russia as well.

So what does this have to do with Capitalism? Almost everything. The biggest thing you get from capitalism is innovation. The U.S is one ( at least once was ) of the most Capitalistic nations in the world! They produce more patents per person than any other nation. If everything was given out for free, then no one would try to change it.

As for water, food, and "healthcare", if you wont work for it, then maybe you shouldnt have a "life force", if you cant work turn to the church. Trust me if you can move you can work, there is a man down my street that as only one arm and no legs, he is a carpenter, and it is amazing to watch him work. He is a veteran, but he never takes money from the VA. So if your 20-something and your back "hurts", and your unwilling to work, put a bullet in your brain and do us all a favor.

Except Russia wasn't really a communism, they were a totalitarian dictatorship that used communism as an excuse to control every aspect of their peoples lives, the same way theocracies use God. To my knowledge no industrialized nation has ever tried an actual communism. So your great "communism vs. capitalism" war was more about which bureaucracy was more efficient, not some war of economic ideals.

This is what everyone says when anyone brings up ANY failed communist or socialist government in history. "Oh, well they weren't REALLY communists so it doesn't count"

Thank you, for say that! Thats what i was going to say.
The thing is they were Communist. But to have communism work at all you need a totalitarian government. Its the same way in china. They have few rights, but they are getting more rights as the country moves towards capitalism.

Totalitarianism and communism are incompatible concepts, since one of the tenets of communism is statelessness (no government). Learn2politicalscience.

Thats very wrong, without the State who will spread the wealth? Who will enforce that people must work? I think your thinking liberalism, which is NOT communism. Liberalism is almost statelessness. Remember though without a state(government) you play only by the roles of nature, that being kill or be killed.

 

[Enigmers]

I was not born into a rich family, we immigrated to Canada and we basically clawed our way to the top (or somewhere around the very comfortable middle.) I'm in a public High School right now, and there are many, many resources (loans, grants) available to get a higher education and, by extension, a decent wage career. It's not pure capitalism, it's capitalism with a bit of socialism sprinkled in.

I'm curious to see what society would be like the other way around, using Communism as a base line and then covering its faults with some Capitalist ideas.

It's also human nature to have sexual intercourse with anything they find attractive. But we have systems in place that prevent people from operating on that nature, don't we?

Except you do have the right to have intercourse with whoever you think is attractive, as long as both of you agree (and are old enough).

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

The necessity of capitalism is an indictment of our species. Were we more psychologically advanced, we might flourish under more egalitarian economic systems. But it turns out we're still a bunch of fucking apes, so we need the cutthroat free market approach to function.

It's sad.

 

[Dexiro]

I think OP is trolling, I honestly can't see what point you're trying to make.

You've just described the economy, i didn't see any negatives in there. If you're arguing that it makes people steal then I'd like to introduce you to the Police force. It's there to stop people stealing, and it's not as if it's widespread because most people have morals.

 

[azncutthroat]

Thats

Spoiler

I've read several pages of this and noticed one thing: you seem to be arguing against the established form of capitalism based on the assumption that people are perfect.

Before you argue against that, let me explain: it all lies in this quote from you:

My idea is an integrated system of Capitalism and Communism where needs are provided by the state and entrepreneurial and entertainment industries are controlled by the market. It's not as flashy or lucrative as Capitalism, but its more stable and still supports progress.

Now, the problem here is that if your needs are provided by the state, nobody has any real reason to work harder than anyone else. Thus, everybody works to the minimum of their abilities, which actually deters progress. We're looking at an entrepreneurial and entertainment industry where the people are liable, so the obvious course of action is to get a menial government job so you won't be held liable for the costs of your actions. Nobody wants to be a brain surgeon if their living arrangements are the same as the trash collector. How are you going to get people into the medical professions?

Also, it takes money to, say, start up a new business. Given that your system is 'not as lucrative', when someone manages to get together the money for his new entrepreneurship, why is he going to try to start his business?

If your response to either question is "to get more money for what he wants", then your system is extremely close to the current form of capitalism, to the point where you may seem to be arguing against yourself. If your response is "for progress" or "for the betterment of mankind", then you are an idealist and don't understand how much people consider 'risk v. reward' before making a choice.

Thank you for saying this! Thats my idea as well.
The best example of the Capitalism vs Communism is the Cold war. At the end of the war in the early 90's most industry in Russia and former USSR country were smoke stack industrys, which means they were low tech and took many people to produce a small amount of product. At he end of the war there were only 330,000 computers in all of Russia. In the U.S there were about 50,000,000 computers, not only that but the industry was much more advanced in the U.S ( and its allies ). The GDP per person, was much higher in the U.S than in Russia as well.

So what does this have to do with Capitalism? Almost everything. The biggest thing you get from capitalism is innovation. The U.S is one ( at least once was ) of the most Capitalistic nations in the world! They produce more patents per person than any other nation. If everything was given out for free, then no one would try to change it.

As for water, food, and "healthcare", if you wont work for it, then maybe you shouldnt have a "life force", if you cant work turn to the church. Trust me if you can move you can work, there is a man down my street that as only one arm and no legs, he is a carpenter, and it is amazing to watch him work. He is a veteran, but he never takes money from the VA. So if your 20-something and your back "hurts", and your unwilling to work, put a bullet in your brain and do us all a favor.

Except Russia wasn't really a communism, they were a totalitarian dictatorship that used communism as an excuse to control every aspect of their peoples lives, the same way theocracies use God. To my knowledge no industrialized nation has ever tried an actual communism. So your great "communism vs. capitalism" war was more about which bureaucracy was more efficient, not some war of economic ideals.

This is what everyone says when anyone brings up ANY failed communist or socialist government in history. "Oh, well they weren't REALLY communists so it doesn't count"

Thank you, for say that! Thats what i was going to say.
The thing is they were Communist. But to have communism work at all you need a totalitarian government. Its the same way in china. They have few rights, but they are getting more rights as the country moves towards capitalism.

Totalitarianism and communism are incompatible concepts, since one of the tenets of communism is statelessness (no government). Learn2politicalscience.

Thats very wrong, without the State who will spread the wealth? Who will enforce that people must work? I think your thinking liberalism, which is NOT communism. Liberalism is almost statelessness. Remember though without a state(government) you play only by the roles of nature, that being kill or be killed.

Obviously, the only things you know about communism are the ignorant caricatures of McCarthyism. Wealth redistribution (if it can even be called that) occurs as a result of the workers gaining control of the means of production, no one "enforces" workers (because, if you actually even knew something of communism that wasn't propaganda, you would know that the workers take control of the means of production for the benefit of all). And statelessness isn't even related to liberalism (which is a broadly-defined ideology that essentially advocates giving power over the government to the people, not the power over the people to the government).

It's also human nature to have sexual intercourse with anything they find attractive. But we have systems in place that prevent people from operating on that nature, don't we?

Except you do have the right to have intercourse with whoever you think is attractive, as long as both of you agree (and are old enough).

Sexual intercourse is a right? Never mind the "with whomever you think is attractive" part, but a right? You should rethink what you just said.

 

[Free Thinker]

Capitalism is the economics of evolution. People who do steal are punished until they learn. And yes some are left off worse than others, but with the way capitalism works, a good investment, idea, or marketing can make you the next millionaire. With communism and socialism, yes they are in human nature, good, but they don't give incentive. They make for lazier people, and human evolution requires work. Hard work.

 

[Cain_Zeros]

All the "I'm free to do anything" stuff people are going on about.

However, I'm not so free to do anything. I'm getting a college education, but there are no jobs available where I live that will make use of it. I also don't make anywhere near enough money at my current job to move elsewhere and find jobs. I'm stuck in a dead end job because it's all there is. Still sound like a wonderful flowers and happiness system?

Yup. It does.
What's the alternative? You work a job day in, day out for something that's needed for the country, but something you hate?

I work in radio broadcasting right now, and I get paid a pretty low salary compared to most other full time, careers. I'm actually in the lowest tax bracket. But I love my job, and I had the freedom to choose it. I don't get everything I really want, but I get to goto a job that I love.

I worked for 6 years at a Burger King, I worked for 4 years in retail (And one horrible summer at a Wal-Mart), and I got out of there and into the job I love doing. I had to sacrifice a lot of 'extras' to do it (No cell, no cable, no internet, cheap groceries, crappy apartment), but I did it because I had the freedom to do it. Now I've got my job that I love, I get steady raises every year because I work hard, my income increases, my quality of life increases, and things look up and up.

Thank you, capitalism.

Well, currently I'm doing something I hate and that wouldn't at all be needed for the country were it not for Capitalism. Corporations like Walmart wouldn't be screwing over their employees either, because they'd be more restricted in what they can do.

 

[kazekagesama23]

Well, currently I'm doing something I hate and that wouldn't at all be needed for the country were it not for Capitalism. Corporations like Walmart wouldn't be screwing over their employees either, because they'd be more restricted in what they can do.

Until they found another way to get around it. Companies are very good at finding loopholes in regulations and they have the resources to do it. If you try to cap their earnings out of a sense of misguided "justice" they'll find another way to do the same thing anyone who goes into business wants to do; make a profit.

 

[Ciran]

Companies may find it easier to convince people that their product is superior, which is why most of the general population stay where they are, economically speaking. Only those who are discriminating enough would be able to tell what is actually superior and what isn't and buy accordingly, therefore ensuring that they got the best product possible at the best possible price. Gaining wealth in a capitalistic society is just as much about buying intelligently as it is working hard and making something someone wants to buy, or fulfilling your obligation in your respective field..

And how the fuck are you supposed to learn how to "buy intelligently" if you come from apoor background and don't have the access to private and high-quality educations that is supposed to teach you to buy intelligently?

"oh, but there are public schools and, the public schools are blablabla". Public schools in capitalist societies are shit per definition, and the only reason they exist is because of socialis reasons and not capitalist ones.

SO really, how are the poor supposed to be able to "buy intelligently" when their education is kept at the barest minimum possible by the capitalistic oppression of simply not being born with enough money to educate yourself?

Face it, capitalism = one big fucking catch 22, and that's all it is...

Wow, you really seemed positive that I was going to bring up public schools, weren't you? And just to answer that little paragraph, that's why I said that ANY economic system in it's pure form is detrimental, which is why it is so rarely practiced.

Also, yes in a pure capitalistic society, the poor would be pretty much screwed, but then again, someone always gets screwed in any kind of "pure" economic society, so I really don't see why it's any worse than anything else.

Also, and I'm probably going to get yelled at for this, but there are such things as prodigies, and they happen over all socio-economic backgrounds, so it is not impossible for every poor person to be stuck the way they are, just most of them.

And to answer you statement, no that's not "all" capitalism is. That's like saying that all that communism is is the oppression of everyone, no matter who they are or what they try to do.

 

[Skeletor 0]

You got a better idea?

Yes! Several.

okay... any that would actually work?
(no offense intended!)

My idea is an integrated system of Capitalism and Communism where needs are provided by the state and entrepreneurial and entertainment industries are controlled by the market. It's not as flashy or lucrative as Capitalism, but its more stable and still supports progress.

But no, I can't vouch for anything that 'works' because historically, nothing has 'worked' and that's why we're still talking about it. But in my opinion, America is currently circling the drain because it took Capitalism too far.

Communism is good, on paper, but as the past 100 years have shown, communism is a major fuck up. It simply does not work and will not work for as long as we are human and have human tenancies.

I never said Communism was preferable - it has it's own problems. I only referenced the anti-Communism thread because most people against it used Capitalism as their defense.

mechanixis you hit the nail on the head. Nothing works. Why? It's human nature. There will always be someone taking advantage of the system. Communism was a failure because it was too easy for people in power to take advantage. Capitalism fails because everyone can take advantage of the system and there no way to regulate a market that large. As long as people try to accumulate more and more wealth, no system will "work." Some will just suck less than others. Communism is actually the best idea, but the only way it works is if you have a benevolent dictator and that doesn't happen very often! (if at all)

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

Also, and I'm probably going to get yelled at for this, but there are such things as prodigies, and they happen over all socio-economic backgrounds, so it is not impossible for every poor person to be stuck the way they are, just most of them.

Yes. And since most people in general don't belong to the already well funded middle class, a capitalist society will ultimately meanthat most people are screwed. Telling the poor majority that all the "prodigies" out there will be able to somehow rise above the rest doesn't realy justify why capitalism should be considered "good", since it so clearly only caters to a small minority of people. Namely the people who areadly come from rich backgrounds, and the odd "prodigy" out there.

Also think of this, can you imaginwe how many poor prodigies there are out there just waiting to blossom, but they will never be able to since they are too poor to educate themselves into something better?

Due to the fact that the public education system is so bad, it's not a very unfounded assumption that the specialized talents and natural affainity that many poor people do have will go unnoticed. And since all these prodigies hae to worry about their very survival and thus dedicate most of their time and effort to flip burgers or clean buildings all day long, society in general will never be able to see these people come to their true potential.

Capitalism will ultimately squander away all the Albert Einsteins and Leonardo Da Vinci's that we could have, due to the very fact that they are born as poor people and thus will never have the time and resources to actually be able to pursue the specific areas of interests which they are true prodigies in.

So for every prodigy that might somehow get discovered and helped, there's most likely ten more going through life completely unnoticed and probably not even aware of their own talents, and for what? For just being poor and never getting a shot at finding outwhat they are best at.

So, like I said, capitalism is nothing but a big fucking catch 22 for the majority of people living under it.

So why should anyone admit that capitalism is supposed to be good? It's not very reasonable or logical at all..

 

[Baby Tea]

I worked for 6 years at a Burger King, I worked for 4 years in retail (And one horrible summer at a Wal-Mart), and I got out of there and into the job I love doing. I had to sacrifice a lot of 'extras' to do it (No cell, no cable, no internet, cheap groceries, crappy apartment), but I did it because I had the freedom to do it.

Well, currently I'm doing something I hate and that wouldn't at all be needed for the country were it not for Capitalism. Corporations like Walmart wouldn't be screwing over their employees either, because they'd be more restricted in what they can do.

Hey man, I did my time. I did my time of shitty jobs for over 10 years.
How long have you been working your shitty job? What steps have you taken, and what sacrifices have you made, to ensure that, eventually, you'll be getting out of there? Capitalism isn't going to hand you what you want, you got to go get it through hard work. I did my time, and you're doing yours. The big question is: What are you willing to give up to ensure your dream job comes along? I had no cell, no TV, no internet. I didn't eat out, I didn't goto the movies, and I extremely cut back my 'extra' spending. That saved me a butt-ton of money that I could put toward schooling. I came out of school without a cent owing, and now I'm doing what I love with basically all those extras back.

People love to ***** about how they can't get a better job, or afford certain things, but 90% of the time they aren't willing to give up the 'extra' crap to make things happen. They want their cake and want to eat it too. Well that's not how things work. Maybe that's your situation, maybe it's not. I don't know. All I know is that I did it. I did it, my dad did it, my brother did it, both my sisters did it. My best friend did it, my other good friend did it, and another friend of mine did it. You work hard, manage your money, and give up what you don't literally need.

Is capitalism the best system there is? Nope. But I like it compared to the alternatives.

 

[Cain_Zeros]

I worked for 6 years at a Burger King, I worked for 4 years in retail (And one horrible summer at a Wal-Mart), and I got out of there and into the job I love doing. I had to sacrifice a lot of 'extras' to do it (No cell, no cable, no internet, cheap groceries, crappy apartment), but I did it because I had the freedom to do it.

Well, currently I'm doing something I hate and that wouldn't at all be needed for the country were it not for Capitalism. Corporations like Walmart wouldn't be screwing over their employees either, because they'd be more restricted in what they can do.

Hey man, I did my time. I did my time of shitty jobs for over 10 years.
How long have you been working your shitty job? What steps have you taken, and what sacrifices have you made, to ensure that, eventually, you'll be getting out of there? Capitalism isn't going to hand you what you want, you got to go get it through hard work. I did my time, and you're doing yours. The big question is: What are you willing to give up to ensure your dream job comes along? I had no cell, no TV, no internet. I didn't eat out, I didn't goto the movies, and I extremely cut back my 'extra' spending. That saved me a butt-ton of money that I could put toward schooling. I came out of school without a cent owing, and now I'm doing what I love with basically all those extras back.

People love to ***** about how they can't get a better job, or afford certain things, but 90% of the time they aren't willing to give up the 'extra' crap to make things happen. They want their cake and want to eat it too. Well that's not how things work. Maybe that's your situation, maybe it's not. I don't know. All I know is that I did it. I did it, my dad did it, my brother did it, both my sisters did it. My best friend did it, my other good friend did it, and another friend of mine did it. You work hard, manage your money, and give up what you don't literally need.

Is capitalism the best system there is? Nope. But I like it compared to the alternatives.

I'm going to school. I'm living at home to save on rent, food, etc. The fact is, better jobs don't exist, especially not for soon-to-be second year college students without a driver's licence (look up British Columbia's graduated licencing program, it's not that surprising that I don't) or a ton of experience. I don't expect a better job to just fall into my lap, but when it doesn't exist at all, I get a little tired of people praising the system as it stands.

 

[Baby Tea]

I'm going to school. I'm living at home to save on rent, food, etc. The fact is, better jobs don't exist, especially not for soon-to-be second year college students without a driver's licence (look up British Columbia's graduated licencing program, it's not that surprising that I don't) or a ton of experience. I don't expect a better job to just fall into my lap, but when it doesn't exist at all, I get a little tired of people praising the system as it stands.

Is BC licensing any different the Ontario's?
Ok I just looked it up. It's different by a bit, but otherwise the same. I feel your pain on that one.

Look, you aren't looking for a 'better' job now, you want to finish school and get a job with that education. So suck it up and buckle down and just work. Everyone works shitty jobs, it's just how it is. It wouldn't be different if we were on some other magical economic system or something. I worked two shitty retail jobs at the same time to make sure I got the money I needed. My wife, who has two degrees, is currently working at Tim freaking Horten's until she passes one more test to get her Ontario's teacher certification. You gotta wade through the crap to get the job you want.

And, since you mentioned this before, if there is no jobs in your area with the education you're getting? Move. I packed up and moved to Fort McMurray, Alberta to launch a radio station. I lived out of a huge duffel bag in somebody's basement for 4 months, living off of nothing but peanut butter, bread, milk, pizza pockets and coke (And the occasional sugar donut). And I didn't have a car, I used public transit...in Fort McMurray. But that crappy experience got the me the work experience I needed to land my awesome job now.

Man, I'm sorry, but all I hear is whining about how you want things different, but you don't seem to be willing to fight for it. You either buckle down to work and fight for what you want, or you can just coast and complain about how the system sucks because you can't have everything you want right now.

The system isn't perfect, but neither are the people in it.
You either succeed in spite of the system, or you don't because of you.

 

[Cain_Zeros]

I'm going to school. I'm living at home to save on rent, food, etc. The fact is, better jobs don't exist, especially not for soon-to-be second year college students without a driver's licence (look up British Columbia's graduated licencing program, it's not that surprising that I don't) or a ton of experience. I don't expect a better job to just fall into my lap, but when it doesn't exist at all, I get a little tired of people praising the system as it stands.

Is BC licensing any different the Ontario's?
Ok I just looked it up. It's different by a bit, but otherwise the same. I feel your pain on that one.

Look, you aren't looking for a 'better' job now, you want to finish school and get a job with that education. So suck it up and buckle down and just work. Everyone works shitty jobs, it's just how it is. It wouldn't be different if we were on some other magical economic system or something. I worked two shitty retail jobs at the same time to make sure I got the money I needed. My wife, who has two degrees, is currently working at Tim freaking Horten's until she passes one more test to get her Ontario's teacher certification. You gotta wade through the crap to get the job you want.

And, since you mentioned this before, if there is no jobs in your area with the education you're getting? Move. I packed up and moved to Fort McMurray, Alberta to launch a radio station. I lived out of a huge duffel bag in somebody's basement for 4 months, living off of nothing but peanut butter, bread, milk, pizza pockets and coke (And the occasional sugar donut). And I didn't have a car, I used public transit...in Fort McMurray. But that crappy experience got the me the work experience I needed to land my awesome job now.

Man, I'm sorry, but all I hear is whining about how you want things different, but you don't seem to be willing to fight for it. You either buckle down to work and fight for what you want, or you can just coast and complain about how the system sucks because you can't have everything you want right now.

The system isn't perfect, but neither are the people in it.
You either succeed in spite of the system, or you don't because of you.

I addressed the moving issue in my first post too. I don't have the money to afford rent here, let alone somewhere bigger! I make $9.00/hr working part time, and I have another year here anyway, unless I want to pay a hell of a lot more to do three years at University. Personally, I think two years here, transferring that to count as the first two years of a degree, and a hell of a lot less debt is the better plan.

 

[cynicalprophet]

I think it's because enough people can see the very visible (although few) great success stories in capitalism and cling to the hope that they can have it too. That and because the concepts of liberty and freedom have been melded so having a free(ish) economy that everyone feels like their going to be made into slaves whenever someone says "socialism".

 

[Player 2]

OP assumes that people don't use money in communist countries. They do.
Also thinks they don't have crime in communist countries. They do.

 

[Wintermoot]

because the alternative goes hand in hand with dictatorship I get your point and here in holland the government gives money to people that cant work or have a low income (the only problem is that lazy people from other countrries abuse this)