Why do people scream "Feminist Agenda" when there is a female lead?

[Kingjackl]

While I feel like those complaints are often blown out of proportion (see the viral article about Fury Road, which was from the trashiest, most desperate fucking MRA site), I have heard anecdotal evidence of it happening after Star Wars and I think it's a real sign of insecurity. I mean, did those people watch Aliens or Terminator 2? Did they watch Fury Road or the Force Awakens? If they did and didn't think those female characters were awesome badasses, then they need to revoke their man cards at once, because they clearly don't understand good action movies.

Do you mind sourcing that MRA site? I was looking into this one at one point and as far as I can tell there was a singular PUA blog and feminists turned it into all MRAs by the end of the day. Meanwhile many of the leaders in the MRA movement enjoyed the film and even said people should go see it.

This one.

http://www.returnofkings.com/63036/why-you-should-not-go-see-mad-max-feminist-road

Pathetic, right? It's like only complete saddos are upset by female leads in action movie because they don't know what's good for 'em.

 

[runic knight]

I agree about Mad Max. While I think it was a great movie and I really enjoyed it, it was definitely not a feminist movie. Between ridiculous hot women (I mean, it's ok that they look attractive but they also looked like they came out of a hairdresser's, not a wasteland) who need saving and the idea that only male characters can be evil and warmongering while women deep down are all nice and all about mother nature and "growing seeds".... I don't even know what's feminist about it, it's about as clich? as it gets. Is it only because of Furiosa? Watch out world, a female character who kicks ass (and still gets the spotlight stolen by the male lead and gets saved by him).

I disagree about the new Ghostbusters. Does it make me a bad person that I am intrigued by the movie simply because I can't recall seeing any other movie that has female characters in the goofy roles that are always reserved only to the male characters? (Apart from Whoopy Goldberg I suppose.)

I have heard some people pointing to the inherent nature of warlord or nurturer before to support feminism (something about the nature of the genders or the balancing aspect of them or what have you, I never really delved too deep into those arguments myself) but yeah, it really seemed a stretch to tie Mad Max to that fight.

On Ghostbuster, there is nothing wrong to be curious about the new set up, even if so because you haven't seen a similar cast in the genre. That seems like a reaction to novelty of the set up, which is odd since I didn't think it was that uncommon, but I guess it hasn't been a major production for a while. The problem arises when either the gender of characters is pushed as a freakshow selling point (like animal-based comedies became), or the criticisms and complaints about the cast are reduced to a farce and strawman that disregard actual complaint (see female Thor debate).

I'll be honest, I am curious about the new movie myself. Seems to have original members writing for it and has the blessing of them, which for what amounts to being yet another 80's property relaunch (a genre which has been full of trash money grab films or gross bastardizations of intellectual properties), is a bit more promising. Still, I am actually put off by the people who point to the female ghostbusters like it is something noteworthy itself because gender. I remember an animated series where they had a female ghostbuster and I never thought twice about that when I was a kid, so it just comes off as so very immature when I see people promoting it like "look, we have GIRLS!" There is something very off-putting when I see someone calling attention to details like that, it always makes me wonder if that was the whole point in itself, the excuse to market the product in such a fashion, rather than just being a detail in an overall product that justifies itself.

Tying back into the original topic, I see I am not the only one who views that sort of thing poorly, and when it is so often tied into a political ideal, and is promoted by media in that capacity, it gets very tiring. Add in a bit of misrepresentation and outright demonization of those critical of such choices, and you get backlashes and people more than wary of the decisions made that are marketed in such a fashion.

 

[Naraka]

The feminist algorithm:

1. Find a stupid post about females in film by one guy or a small group OR intentionally misinterpret an argument as sexist despite not being so

2. Claim it being representive of ALL MALES.

3. Patriarchy!

Seriously, I'm pretty sure most big stories can be followed to small cases ballooned by click bait websites to a male movement and that's without talking about feminists complaining when it's "the same male protagonist again".

That's a very one sided claim to make, that unfairly tars a large movement with the minority of said movement.

So in name of fairness... The anti-feminist algorithm:

1. Find stupid post about "man hating" in modern society made by one feminist, or a small group, and/or misrepresent an argument as "misandrist" despite it not being so.

2. Claim it's representative of ALL FEMALES and ALL FEMINISTS, and complain about those dirty "manginas and sad betas."

3. Global "gynocentric" oppressive matriarchy conspiracy!

See it goes both ways, especially in this particular case, because we're not talking about how people default to: "Same old male protagonist again. Instead we're talking about how other people default to: "Feminist Agenda!" When there are any female leads in action movies anymore. Really it's two small groups intertwined in a web of outrage directed at each other.

I won't disagree with you there, this strategy of both sides to use the more crazy elements of the other as representations to its whole only gives more power to said crazy elements and distrupts constructive discussion.

The pure and beautiful irony of course is that it means everyone else is ignoring them, so it's just two groups of trolls slap-fighting with identical tactics. They're basically the same people, except for underlying politics. There is a reason most sites ban this shit outright, and it's not "Censorship evil omgz CONSPRIRIRIRACAAAH".

It's, "Fuck these entitled, whining, annoying, monoculture assholes." The louder we all join in that, the sooner they're going to grow up or self-isolate.

 

[THM]

Because politely disagreeing with someone is a dying art. You either totally agree with someone or hate everything they stand for. The middle ground of reasonableness is getting smaller every day.

Thank goodness somebody said this. And you Sir/Madam, are absolutely correct.

Not to mention, forget about trying to posit an opinion solo anymore. You either join a 'tribe' (mob), or you suffer in silence. Or possibly create a mob of your own.

OT: Several people have mentioned tokenism, and the better tactic of actually having well-written characters - and creating new characters, instead of just appropriating old ones. I agree with that take. But then I prefer common sense in most things.

 

[wulf3n]

- Can anyone see how male characters can have a lot of roles and be anything,

More varied than women, yes. can be anything, no.

while female characters tend to have to look pretty and/or be very limited in their roles?

Depending on the genre that holds true for male characters as well.

- Can anyone see how things are changing thanks to all the fuss about feminism, and now videogames, movies and medias are starting to get more variety in the female characters (more importantly, without that changing ANYTHING AT ALL about the presence of sexy babes)?

Is it though? changing I mean. I feel like things have taken a step back, that 15-25 years ago media was more diverse than it is now. Not equal by any stretch, by still more diverse.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I don't know. Why do some women scream "patriarchy" when a guy says "hello" to them on the street?

I cannot answer that question, since I have never in life seen that situation.

The cocktail of misrepresentation here has two parts: The first is the idea is "I don't see sexual harassment so it must not happen EVER, so logically women are being oversensitive." The second is using a common English term to invalidate a movement, in this case people who know nothing about feminism, but still hate it, use the terms "misogyny" and "patriarchy" the same way. That is by removing all context and attacking the wording, because their arguments don't work in a logical debate.

Also because Vanilla ISIS is using an unfair comparison between saying "hello", versus a constant stream of casual sexist comments that are thrown at women for having the sheer gal to walk out side:

Spoiler: I have to post this comic... Again.

[http://www.robot-hugs.com/harassment/]

Yes they are mutually exclusive, because the "men's rights movement" is very openly an anti-feminist movement, and MRAs are very openly anti-feminists.

That's not inherently true. The MRM and anti-feminists are different groups all in of themselves just like MGTOW's and Redpillers. There is a lot of cross over though because the two aren't mutually exclusive. So a MRA can be a feminist as well theoretically but for the MRA's at least it mostly has to do with feminists showing up at just about every public event to shut it down by calling police pulling fire alarms and just general protesting. I think that would turn most people off the group though.

The problem is that MRAs, MGTOWs, Redpillers, PUAs, and the like all blare the exact same thing as anti-feminist groups. It doesn't really seem to be a loud minority any more either. It's gotten to the point where MRAs I've known, the ones who actually care about gender equality and the rights of men, have moved to working with feminist groups and can no longer identify as MRAs because of how toxic the label has become.

Also they shut down every public event? Gosh why didn't tell me they shut down all of the midnight screenings of Star Wars: The Force Awakens in my town, and that they shut down the red carpet premier in Hollywood, all by pulling fire alarms calling the police. Sure, that's a thing that happened. Oh how about how feminists shut down an event about raising awareness of male rape victims at the university in my town, by pulling fire alarms and calling police... Except that didn't happen, the awareness event went off without a hitch, and it was organized and run by *GASP!* Feminists!

Honestly I've never personally seen feminists shut down any event, I've seen news of it happening, but that's mostly done by college students, ones who are still in the "bra burning protest" stage of things.

 

[aba1]

While I feel like those complaints are often blown out of proportion (see the viral article about Fury Road, which was from the trashiest, most desperate fucking MRA site), I have heard anecdotal evidence of it happening after Star Wars and I think it's a real sign of insecurity. I mean, did those people watch Aliens or Terminator 2? Did they watch Fury Road or the Force Awakens? If they did and didn't think those female characters were awesome badasses, then they need to revoke their man cards at once, because they clearly don't understand good action movies.

Do you mind sourcing that MRA site? I was looking into this one at one point and as far as I can tell there was a singular PUA blog and feminists turned it into all MRAs by the end of the day. Meanwhile many of the leaders in the MRA movement enjoyed the film and even said people should go see it.

This one.

http://www.returnofkings.com/63036/why-you-should-not-go-see-mad-max-feminist-road

Pathetic, right? It's like only complete saddos are upset by female leads in action movie because they don't know what's good for 'em.

Ya this is a Pick Up Artist (PUA) website... they even have articles about how much they hate MRA's on the website which doesn't make much sense if they themselves are supposed to be MRA's. I remember at one point they even talked about how they think MRA's are "whinny betas" in their about section.

Here is two links right off hand with them talking negatively about MRA's which doesn't really makes sense... if they themselves are MRA's

http://www.returnofkings.com/31590/5-reasons-i-am-not-a-mens-rights-activist

http://www.returnofkings.com/7877/the-mens-rights-movement-is-no-place-for-men

 

[Naraka]

While I feel like those complaints are often blown out of proportion (see the viral article about Fury Road, which was from the trashiest, most desperate fucking MRA site), I have heard anecdotal evidence of it happening after Star Wars and I think it's a real sign of insecurity. I mean, did those people watch Aliens or Terminator 2? Did they watch Fury Road or the Force Awakens? If they did and didn't think those female characters were awesome badasses, then they need to revoke their man cards at once, because they clearly don't understand good action movies.

Do you mind sourcing that MRA site? I was looking into this one at one point and as far as I can tell there was a singular PUA blog and feminists turned it into all MRAs by the end of the day. Meanwhile many of the leaders in the MRA movement enjoyed the film and even said people should go see it.

This one.

http://www.returnofkings.com/63036/why-you-should-not-go-see-mad-max-feminist-road

Pathetic, right? It's like only complete saddos are upset by female leads in action movie because they don't know what's good for 'em.

Ya this is a Pick Up Artist (PUA) website... they even have articles about how much they hate MRA's on the website which doesn't make much sense if they themselves are supposed to be MRA's. I remember at one point they even talked about how they think MRA's are "whinny betas" in their about section.

Here is two links right off hand with them talking negatively about MRA's which doesn't really makes sense... if they themselves are MRA's

http://www.returnofkings.com/31590/5-reasons-i-am-not-a-mens-rights-activist

http://www.returnofkings.com/7877/the-mens-rights-movement-is-no-place-for-men

Self-ascribed MRA's tend to hate PUA's, and self-ascribed PUA's tend to hate MRA's. So what though? Most schisms of Christianity hate(d) each other more than anything. Often they argue about who is the "Real Christian". To everyone else it's just, "That bunch of angry Christians." You're making it sound like people who are incredibly alike, but have different conflicting self-images don't normally go to war.

In fact, their total similarity, right down to an inability to see themselves for what they are (pathetic mostly), means that labels mean everything to them.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Honestly I've never personally seen feminists shut down any event, I've seen news of it happening, but that's mostly done by college students, ones who are still in the "bra burning protest" stage of things.

aba1 has, and unlike you and me he has 30,000 hours of in-depth study of gender politics, and has wined and dined with every leading feminist and MRA figure of the era. He has established himself as an unimpeachable authority. His anecdotal experience is beyond question.

 

[Naraka]

While I feel like those complaints are often blown out of proportion (see the viral article about Fury Road, which was from the trashiest, most desperate fucking MRA site), I have heard anecdotal evidence of it happening after Star Wars and I think it's a real sign of insecurity. I mean, did those people watch Aliens or Terminator 2? Did they watch Fury Road or the Force Awakens? If they did and didn't think those female characters were awesome badasses, then they need to revoke their man cards at once, because they clearly don't understand good action movies.

Do you mind sourcing that MRA site? I was looking into this one at one point and as far as I can tell there was a singular PUA blog and feminists turned it into all MRAs by the end of the day. Meanwhile many of the leaders in the MRA movement enjoyed the film and even said people should go see it.

This one.

http://www.returnofkings.com/63036/why-you-should-not-go-see-mad-max-feminist-road

Pathetic, right? It's like only complete saddos are upset by female leads in action movie because they don't know what's good for 'em.

Ya this is a Pick Up Artist (PUA) website... they even have articles about how much they hate MRA's on the website which doesn't make much sense if they themselves are supposed to be MRA's. I remember at one point they even talked about how they think MRA's are "whinny betas" in their about section.

Here is two links right off hand with them talking negatively about MRA's which doesn't really makes sense... if they themselves are MRA's

http://www.returnofkings.com/31590/5-reasons-i-am-not-a-mens-rights-activist

http://www.returnofkings.com/7877/the-mens-rights-movement-is-no-place-for-men

Self-ascribed MRA's tend to hate PUA's, and self-ascribed PUA's tend to hate MRA's. So what though? Most schisms of Christianity hate(d) each other more than anything. You're making it sound like people who are incredibly alike, but have different conflicting self-images don't normally go to war.

In fact, their total similarity, right down to an inability to see themselves for what they are (pathetic mostly), means that labels mean everything to them.

So PUA's make asses of themselves and MRA's get blamed for it but its ok because people say they are the same thing without any proof or anything. Like seriously have you done even done any research into anything non feminist from a non feminist perspective?

Please don't beat that poor straw man to death, and try to confine your replies to things I actually said. It will save time, and I'm not willing to play games on a forum.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

It's reaction to the constant bitching that every male and remotely good looking female character is just pandering to the almighty, all knowing and omnipresent "patriarchy".

 

[wulf3n]

Tell me ONE role male characters aren't allowed to play.

It's not about allowance. By that same logic there's no role women aren't allowed to play either. The discussion is about what roles they get cast in.

To answer that question Homosexual action hero.

When the genre is that everyone is pretty, both males and females will be pretty.

When the genre is that not everyone is pretty, males won't be pretty but females will be pretty.

This has been proven true countless times, with about 1 exception every 100.000.000 cases.

Yes and No. In some more obscure indie films and most comedies you can get away with less than attractive male leads. Everything else no.

Did you have videogames with female characters that weren't stereotyped and sexualized, back in the old days? No you didn't.

Characters or just protagonists?

Assuming just protagonists (not in any chronological order):

Samus Aran (which you mentioned)
Joanna Dark
Jill Valentine
Aya Brea
April Ryan
Kate Walker
Jade (BG&E)

Just off the top of my head. Sure they're all still attractive but they're not sexualized.

Back in the old days the greatest innovation was Samus Aran, so go figure. Nowadays the "female character in armour or clothing that doesn't reveal her body" is no longer a unique case that is so special, but is something many videogames are starting to do.

Again I saw it more in the old days than I do now.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I haven't followed the marketing of the new Ghostbuster, but I think they never went and promoted the movie as "hey it has FEMALE LEADS!! So progressive!!".

Dan Aykroyd, who has been single handedly keeping the idea of a new Ghostbusters movie alive for DECADES (it's not like he has anything else going on), has been banging on about doing it with women for many years now.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5262213/ray-hopes-for-alyssa-milano-and-eliza-dushku-as-the-first-female-ghostbusters

Ghostbusters was always Aykroyd's baby, right from the beginning (his original draft was called "Ghost Smashers" and involved time travel and other lunacy). One could easily assume that Dan really just wants to hang out with some young women. The dude isn't working a lot these days. He needs some attention.

 

[Politrukk]

Why did Thor have to become a woman? Why did we need an all female Ghostbusters reboot? Why exactly from all of Marvel's characters did they pick the damaged lady, the black guy, and the white guy who they're considering turning into an Asian guy(even though it's a logical change)?

These are extremely arbitrary complaints that only make sense if you assume "white male" is a default which requires no justification, but anyone not being white and male better have a damn good reason for it.

Oh the last two were just an addition, the first two examples were more in line but I figured I'd throw them in there regardless.

 

[JimB]

I agree that feminism in general has a problem with terminology.

I think the real problem with jargon is that even when they try and change the jargon to be more accessible, it becomes a euphemism treadmill sort of thing.

That's certainly a problem in America. For instance, I think a big reason Donald Trump has so many supporters is that people feel the attempt to distinguish between Muslims and terrorists (which we absolutely should) is disingenuous because it attempts to separate radical Islam from Islam. I think the Democrats might have done better to admit the connection and from them proceed to educate the public than to continually deny it.

I have spent literally hundreds...debatably over a thousand hours studying feminism, MRM, MGTOW, anti-feminism, traditionalism, egalitarianism, humanism etc and I can tell you with 100% certainty that I very well know what those terms mean.

First, aba1, I'd like to drop a disclaimer over my response to you: I'm confused about your intent. I'm not sure how much anything you say in your post has to bear on what I said, so, based on the fact that you seem pretty angry about it, I'm going to address you as if yous post is intended as a rebuttal of mine. It's my best guess. If you meant it in some other way, then I apologize for misunderstanding you and invite you to explain yourself so I can reply more appropriately.

Second, when I said "I am not here to take anything from you," I am also not trying to take your credibility from you. I'm not calling you ignorant or attacking your knowledge. I'm speaking about the way the terms have apparently been used as weapons against you.

I started off as a feminist and watched as time and time again feminists both in media and directly around me would do massively hypocritical things. They would sit there going on about how men have all the best positions in society talking about CEO's and politicians and how it was unfair women never had those positions, then proceed to get upset and dismiss me based on my gender when I pointed out that men make up 75%-80% of the homeless and 95% of work place fatalities showing they make up most of the lowest in society as well (which makes up a far larger percentage of the population too).

I can't speak for the feminists you spoke with, but I'd certainly be leery of those comments too if you brought them up without at least an explanation of why you mention it, because it sounds like someone yelling "All lives matter!" at a Black Lives Matter protest: like an attempt to deflect attention and dismiss the concerns being presented.

They would complain women deserve equal rights while literally ignoring that men have less rights in the western world than women. They talk about how it was horrible men had the vote while women didn't ignoring that in some places it was as little as ten years that men even had the vote longer than women. Before that it was based on land ownership so some women did vote and in general most people men and women did not. In fact men had to give up one of their rights just to get the right to vote something that women never had to do (conscription). It goes on and on and on.

So...you were going to feminist meetings to tell them their beliefs are wrong?

I have seen feminists scream feminism is for equality for men and women and turn around and picket men's rights conferences.

I have to put my hands up here: I have yet to meet a men's rights advocate who doesn't fill me with contempt, because I have never met one who will actually try to take steps to improve a man's situations, instead only listing his grievances about his oppression when he hears a woman complaining about her social treatment. It leads me to believe they don't actually care about what the issues they claim to champion, but are just trying to win some kind of contest to see whose gender can be most oppressed.

I don't say that to attack you, but because I've gone off on these very forums on a much more detailed rant about why I am achingly furious with the MRA movement, and I feel it would be disingenuous of me to act accepting of it now. Full disclosure.

I have seen them champion bills to reform rape policies and specifically word it to make sure only men can be rapists.

That's terrible. Which bills?

It wasn't until I was told by feminists that I wasn't allowed to be a feminist because of my gender that I really stopped and took a step back to look at other perspectives to really see all these things and much much much MUCH more.

I'm sorry you had that experience--no, really, I am; it sucks--but I will remind you I am not one of those people who told you that.

I know you likely just think I am some angry, fedora-wearing, neck-bearded guy but I can assure you I am well-researched and I don't talk shit unless I know what I am talking about.

I do not think you are fedora-wearing or neck-bearded. I'm not here to judge you, aba1, and I hope you can believe that so we can move on past this defensiveness that, honestly, I have to say I find quite weird. I do think you are angry, though. Am I wrong about that? Are you not angry at a movement that you feel personally betrayed by as well as perceive as committing immoral acts, such that you think anyone who believes in any of a dozen different feminists theories hates all men?

Why did Thor have to become a woman? Why did we need an all female Ghostbusters reboot? Why exactly from all of Marvel's characters did they pick the damaged lady, the black guy, and the white guy who they're considering turning into an Asian guy(even though it's a logical change)?

These are extremely arbitrary complaints that only make sense if you assume "white male" is a default which requires no justification, but anyone not being white and male better have a damn good reason for it.

Oh the last two were just an addition, the first two examples were more in line but I figured I'd throw them in there regardless.

Then your complaint is still arbitrary and nonsensical. What about Erik Masterson's and Beta Ray Bill's penises made it okay for them to be Thor, but not [REDACTED FOR SPOILERS]'s vagina?