why do people suddenly fear nuclear power plants?

[x EvilErmine x]

The graphite wasn't the coolant, it was the moderator, and it doesn't... er, "increase heat" (maybe you meant it insulates? I don't know if it does that either...), it just caught fire.

He's thinking of the tips of the control rods being made of graphite; the bit that did things was above that, and was boron carbide. They displaced the coolant as they were inserted, and the graphite briefly increased the rate of reaction in the core. Briefly was enough, the reactor blew up a few seconds into the 18-20 second SCRAM process.

I've always read about a "positive void coefficient" causing the increased temperature at insertion, but I have little to no idea what that means. Are you saying that it was the graphite displacing the coolant? Is that what that means?

For a quick explanation of what a void co-efficient is see my last post before this one.

 

[Unesh52]

From the news:
"Government officials early Sunday said as many as 160 people may have been exposed to radiation here in Fukushima Prefecture. That occurred following an explosion at the crippled number one plant of the Fukusihma nuclear power complex.

It apparently happened as the result of steps taken to try to prevent the reactor melting after the facility lost power as a result of the quake and tsunami. Plant operators initiated a desperate measure to cool the number one reactor using seawater and boric acid. Government officials say the containment vessel around the reactor's core is intact."

Apparently those control rods and "pulling the plug failed" :s

Here is the site: http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Japans-PM-Urges-Evacuation-Near-Nuclear-Plant-117850648.html

I concede the point. I tried to equate "introducing the control rods" with "pulling the plug." Indeed, if the control rods break or you can't lower them into the core for some reason (like lack of power), you can get a meltdown.

I never said it happens instantly but it can happen that's why people fear it. And yes I know people still live in those areas, but many were plagued with numerous health issues. There are still some birth defects associated with the atomic bomb dropped on Japan.

I can look for more evidence to support my detailed argument later this evening after school and work, if you want me to just let me know.

1) I want sources on these "numerous health issues" because 1) -- er, 1[sub]a[/sub])

The United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation [http://www.unscear.org/docs/reports/gareport.pdf] compiled a report on Chernobyl, and one of its findings was that

There have been about 1,800 cases of thyroid cancer in children who were exposed at the time of the accident, and if the current trend continues, there may be more cases during the next decades. Apart from this increase, there is no evidence of a major public health impact attributable to radiation exposure 14 years after the accident. There is no scientific evidence of increases in overall cancer incidence or mortality or in non-malignant disorders that could be related to radiation exposure.

It's important to realize that though these areas are sparsely populated (and were before the accident as well), that's still not a lot of people, considering the scope of the damage. There's also no reason to think that radiation exposure was the sole cause. Certainly, such cancer existed before the accident as well. Thyroid cancer is not usually deadly if caught early.

and 1[sub]b[/sub]) most of the "health issues" associated with the incident were psychological disorders (e.g. depression, with a related alcohol dependency) caused by the evacuations (most of which took place after the bulk of the threat had passed[footnote]This is at least the third time I've said this part. Have I said it to you already?[/footnote]) or were just normal disorders blamed post hoc style on the incident. I believe people in London were trying to blame a spike in leukemia on it just a few years ago, even though such spikes were not seen anywhere else closer to the actual site.

2) Apples and Oranges. Nuclear bombs release a lot more radiation in a much shorter period of time. And that really matters, because the amount of damage to the body is not strictly proportional to the amount of radiation received. Low levels of exposure over a long period is fine (and thank-goodness because everyone has to deal with that), but even short exposure to massive radiation can cause cellular damage. And don't forget that there are different types of radiation that affect the body differently. If your point was to show that some kinds of radiation can be dangerous at high levels, point taken. But that's not the kind of exposure we're talking about with nuclear meltdowns. There is no evidence that any meltdown at any time has caused environmental and health problems dramatic enough to warrant discontinuing their use.

I can look for more evidence to support my detailed argument later this evening after school and work, if you want me to just let me know.

I'd like that. And let me just say that I'm sorry about being a dick last night. It was late, I was tired, and there is an overwhelming amount of people ITT that don't seem to understand the bare bones basics of how a nuclear reactor even works, but are astoundingly confident that one's failure could bring about the end of the world.

 

[Thaluikhain]

There simply isn't enough fuel in a reactor to cover a whole country with any meaningful level of radiation. Unless magical atomic elves are currently loading hundreds of tons of additional fuel into the reactors without anyone noticing, it can't happen at all.

Would that not make an awesome idea for a videogame?

Speaking of which:

How come nobody has pointed out the real danger yet?

When the plant explodes, it will cause an EMP that lets North Korea invade.

 

[Unesh52]

The reactors that have had to be shut down because of the earthquake/tsunami are of the newer design so there's very little danger of them going critical and exploding. Also the reported radiation 'leaks' that have been reported have not been explained properly, the radiation was not dangerous and has a half life of only minutes at the most so basically by the time you finish reading this then it will have already decayed to a level that is at most only slightly more radioactive than your average granite kitchen worktop.

Thanks for that explanation of void coefficients friend. (Judging from the Wikipedia description of the incident, I think these "voids" are simply bubbles. Kind of lame, really.)

By the way, does this explanation I quoted apply to Light's news story?

From the news:
"Government officials early Sunday said as many as 160 people may have been exposed to radiation here in Fukushima Prefecture. That occurred following an explosion at the crippled number one plant of the Fukusihma nuclear power complex.

...

Here is the site: http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Japans-PM-Urges-Evacuation-Near-Nuclear-Plant-117850648.html

 

[Pyro Paul]

I'll also point out that "pockets of deadly radiation" is a gross exaggeration. There are still areas with elevated radiation counts, yes, but the risk is in terms of long-term cancer or reproductive problems rather than radiation sickness. No, I wouldn't want to live there either... but the risks are closer to those of living in an old house with asbestos insulation than of the stereotypical image of radiation poisoning.

No, it is not a gross exaggeration.

In the exclusion zone, particularly the 10 km area that used to be the Red Forest, there are still pockets of radioactivity well beyond 40 curies mark. That is more then double the amount to kill you instantly.

That sounds a bit high. I'm having difficulties gauging that, though, as I'm more familiar with Rads or Sieverts in this context instead of Curies and I don't know enough about the context to do a conversion. Do you have a source for that figure I could look at?

I could see very high levels inside the Sarcophagus, certainly, but not outside it unless you're talking about a biggish chunk of the core expelled in the explosion... and those, I thought, had been collected in the post-accident clean-up.

-- Steve

The Red Forest was one of the places that was heavily contaiminated. as a stop gap measure they simply bulldozed the entire place and buried it under ground making it mostly a flat dead zone. this has lead to 90% of the radiation in the area to be found in the soil.

plants that have managed to re-grow in the area have shown genetic mutation, cancerious growths, and cases of Gigantism.

disposal sites where they simply buried irradiated material also spike with high curie counts.


as to a conversion.
you can't convert activity to dosage.
you have to calculate the dosage from the activity and distance.

some facts.
1 sv/day makes you ill, but you can recover from it. little serious damage.
5 sv/day makes you very sick, vomiting, heavy internal damage. if untreated is lethal.
10 sv/day incapaciatates/kills you.

Chernobyl uses CS-137 fuel which is what contaminated the area.

so hypothetically.
if you where to walk through the area that was the red forest for 1 day, the 'average' activity you'd be subjected to is 40 curies. (some places spike higher, some lower.)

if you calculate out 40 curies to Sv.
average 40 curies of CS-137 would subject you to 100 SV/hour.

of course this is very subjective because there are several thousand other factors in radiation. if you change just one variable you can be subjected to 1000 sv/hour or another you'd be subjected to 3 sv/hour.


one thing i do find intresting about chernobyl...
people will be able to go back to Pripyat with out fear in 5 years time.
CS-137, the most longest lasting material released from the event has a half life of 30 years. in 2016 the city will be safe for human population again.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

The reactors that have had to be shut down because of the earthquake/tsunami are of the newer design so there's very little danger of them going critical and exploding. Also the reported radiation 'leaks' that have been reported have not been explained properly, the radiation was not dangerous and has a half life of only minutes at the most so basically by the time you finish reading this then it will have already decayed to a level that is at most only slightly more radioactive than your average granite kitchen worktop.

Thanks for that explanation of void coefficients friend. (Judging from the Wikipedia description of the incident, I think these "voids" are simply bubbles. Kind of lame, really.)

By the way, does this explanation I quoted apply to Light's news story?

From the news:
"Government officials early Sunday said as many as 160 people may have been exposed to radiation here in Fukushima Prefecture. That occurred following an explosion at the crippled number one plant of the Fukusihma nuclear power complex.

...

Here is the site: http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Japans-PM-Urges-Evacuation-Near-Nuclear-Plant-117850648.html

Well the story doesn't go into much detail about it but i think it does. It would make sense for them to use sea water to cool the reactor as long as the core has not been breached. Yeah it'll pick up some radiation from secondary reactions going on but nothing with a half life of more than a few days at the maximum so it'll be OK to just put back into the sea after. As for the people exposed to radiation well as i said I'm not sure from the article but the radiation was more likely than not from the secondary (low level) reactions cussed by the brake down of radio active isotopes formed by the core. This is not too harmful (always a relative statement when dealing with radiation you understand). As the reactions produce mainly alpha and beta radiation. Alpha radiation wont penetrate skin and Beta can be stopped easily too, a sheet of tin foil will stop it. However if ingested things can change dramatically as these types of radiation are called 'ionising'. They have the ability to strip electrons from other atoms...which is a bad thing as far as DNA and other proteins in the body are concerned.

 

[keinechance]

The concrete shell that was destroyed by the explosion caused by the hydrogen gas?

Nope, the concrete shell inside that. The bit that was "destroyed" was just a regular building to keep the weather out so the workers don't complain.

The massive concrete containment shell is perfectly fine inside the building. Its 4' of concrete. A puny buildup of Hydrogen won't hurt it.

As far as I saw in the news, the fukushima NPP's n.1 reactor now only has the metal containment around the reactor core left. If I'm wrong about that, then I apologize.

Well, lets apply some brain power. You have read/heard the shell is gone/breached. OK, maybe. Getting news out of a disaster zone is tricky at best and there have been some scam messages out there. So...lets ignore the news either way and look at what are (hopefully) facts.

1) The reactor was built with a 4'shell. This shell keeps the radiation and the radioactive fuel in, as a last ditch line of defence.

2) Concrete is pretty damn strong, especially 4' of the stuff.

3) There have been explosions.

So. Ignoring the news, and assuming the above are valid what can we say?
I don't know the exact strength of 4' of concrete. However, watching mythbusters try and open a safe I can reasonably assume that to break 4' of concrete is going to take a MONSTER explosion. What we saw on the videos didn't look like a "busts 4' of concrete" explosion to me.

Again, going back to mythbusters safecracking lets assume that the explosion DID breach the shell. I can't imagine an explosion being JUST powerful enough to break the shell and leave the contents alone. So, if an explosion did break the shell surely the contents is everywhere? Since we aren't getting reports of massive radiation leaks surely we can assume the shell is intact?

It looks like the inner reactor core no.2 IS actually damaged.

IAEA-Chef Yukiya Amano says " Less then 5% " damage to the core as of the latest information.

 

[Kadoodle]

Look at Japan. It's one of the most technologically advanced countries on the planet, and yet nobody realized the dangers of setting up nuclear power in an area prone to natural disasters.

It had to be hit by an earthquake and a tsunami before it experienced what is, objectively, a fairly minor problem. There are dozens of nuclear plants in the country, and only this one seems to be having problems.

I wouldn't call it a minor problem.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Why do we fear them? 2 words "lowest bid".

 

[purf]

Apparently this disaster has all but killed the Nuclear industry in Germany, they likely won't be investing in it any time soon.

Uh... from a total of 17, the 7 or something oldest power plants are going on a break, for now, 2 are being shut off. (and that's pretty much it) There are some state elections within the next couple of weeks, ya know?

 

[LittleChone]

jeez I am actually in favor of nuclear power but this is just idiotic. If you have ever lived anywhere near these things (I'm looking at you Vermont Yankee!) you would know that it is nowhere near a rainforest.

The town of springfield VT is a dump because of the plant (yeah I know springfield has a nuclear plant right?). Rivers are infected with tritium and and other nuclear waste products and they get away with it by lobbying congress to call it "green".

Oh and by the way Springfield is just miles away from the connecticut river and tritium levels have been found ever further distances from there so if Connecticut is exterminated in the next decade you know who to call.

Look, I'm not saying that nuclear energy is the "safest" form of energy, but with some obvious changes to the way its distributed and managed to keep it from affecting the environment, it can probably be a cleaner form of energy than coal and gasoline.

 

[keinechance]

Apparently this disaster has all but killed the Nuclear industry in Germany, they likely won't be investing in it any time soon.

Uh... from a total of 17, the 7 or something oldest power plants are going on a break, for now, 2 are being shut off. (and that's pretty much it) There are some state elections within the next couple of weeks, ya know?

Being german myself, I can tell you that is correct.

But while this is a stalling tactic by the current government party, the opposition against the "Laufzeitverlängerung" ( the running time extension of all the NPP's by about 12 years, even the oldest ones) made by the government party, already had very strong opposition and appeals to the highest court of germany by the opposing party's, the states these NPP's are in, and by private people initiatives from all of Germany where already on their way, even before the current catastrophe in japan.

And while I belive that the running time extension would not have been implemented even before all this happend, I'm almost certain now, as the number of people who voice their displeasure has increased significantly.

 

[JonnWood]

Nuclear power is, objectively, much safer than just about any other form of energy.

Safer than wind? Solar? Geothermal? Tidal?

Sorry, I forgot to put a "conventional" in there.

Look at Japan. It's one of the most technologically advanced countries on the planet, and yet nobody realized the dangers of setting up nuclear power in an area prone to natural disasters.

It had to be hit by an earthquake and a tsunami before it experienced what is, objectively, a fairly minor problem. There are dozens of nuclear plants in the country, and only this one seems to be having problems.

I wouldn't call it a minor problem.

Fine then; just about every spot on the world is prone to some natural disaster or another. Midwest US: Tornadoes. Just about anywhere near the Atlantic: Hurricanes. Pacific Rim: Earthquakes n' Volcanos.

Also, this is one problem, in one power plant, out of Japan's dozens. And most of the country is on a fault line. They're obviously doing something properly.

 

[purf]

Apparently this disaster has all but killed the Nuclear industry in Germany, they likely won't be investing in it any time soon.

Uh... from a total of 17, the 7 or something oldest power plants are going on a break, for now, 2 are being shut off. (and that's pretty much it) There are some state elections within the next couple of weeks, ya know?

Being german myself, I can tell you that is correct.

But while this is a stalling tactic by the current government party, the opposition against the "Laufzeitverlängerung" ( the running time extension of all the NPP's by about 12 years, even the oldest ones) made by the government party, already had very strong opposition and appeals to the highest court of germany by the opposing party's, the states these NPP's are in, and by private people initiatives from all of Germany where already on their way, even long before the current catastrophe in japan.

And while I belive that the running time extension would not have been implemented even before all this happend, I'm almost certain now, as the number of people who voice their displeasure has increased significantly.

Being german myself, I can tell you that you are correct.

But! Well, I don't want to eloborate on german politics here, so the basic point: any reaction to the situation in Japan is temporary and strategic and will - by the end of the day - not make any difference. at all. The "Laufzeitverlängerung" is just suspended - let the radioactive dust settle and it's back to business as usual.

 

[keinechance]

Also, this is one problem, in one power plant, out of Japan's dozens. And most of the country is on a fault line. They're obviously doing something properly.

I don't know if you can call being ( somewhat) lucky by only having ONE disaster on their hands "doing something properly"

 

[keinechance]

Apparently this disaster has all but killed the Nuclear industry in Germany, they likely won't be investing in it any time soon.

Uh... from a total of 17, the 7 or something oldest power plants are going on a break, for now, 2 are being shut off. (and that's pretty much it) There are some state elections within the next couple of weeks, ya know?

Being german myself, I can tell you that is correct.

But while this is a stalling tactic by the current government party, the opposition against the "Laufzeitverlängerung" ( the running time extension of all the NPP's by about 12 years, even the oldest ones) made by the government party, already had very strong opposition and appeals to the highest court of germany by the opposing party's, the states these NPP's are in, and by private people initiatives from all of Germany where already on their way, even long before the current catastrophe in japan.

And while I belive that the running time extension would not have been implemented even before all this happend, I'm almost certain now, as the number of people who voice their displeasure has increased significantly.

Being german myself, I can tell you that you are correct.

But! Well, I don't want to eloborate on german politics here, so the basic point: any reaction to the situation in Japan is temporary and strategic and will - by the end of the day - not make any difference. at all. The "Laufzeitverlängerung" is just suspended - let the radioactive dust settle and it's back to business as usual.

I hope you are wrong with this ( and I will certainly vote/go active against it) , but as always, only time will tell.

 

[keinechance]

Double post, sorry!

 

[Zakarath]

Nuclear does have its downsides and dangers, but compared to fossil fuel plants, it is the lesser of two evils, in my opinion. Sure, there is the occasional incident that might pollute/irradiate an area, but coal, oil, etc. plants are polluting all the time, and to a much more cumulative effect than a few isolated nuclear incidents.

 

[CobraX]

Gotta love all of the ignorant rage directed at people who are rightly just raising their hands and pointing out that Nuclear Power is VERY dangerous.

 

[keinechance]

Gotta love all of the ignorant rage directed at people who are rightly just raising their hands and pointing out that Nuclear Power is VERY dangerous.

Thanks for that

I think the people here, including me, mostly want to say "Let's get over nuclear power ASAP, so let's start moving you lazy sods!"