why do people suddenly fear nuclear power plants?

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Aurgelmir

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RAKtheUndead said:
THEJORRRG said:
Yeah, but if something DOES go wrong, stuff goes, very, horribly wrong.
See: Chernobyl outskirts.
Chernobyl. Was. An. Anomaly. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.241623-Probing-The-Inaccuracies-Nuclear-Power]

Stop using it as an example.
There is apparently still 11 power plants of the Tsjernobyl design left in Russia. They have been slightly modified but they are still pretty damn dangerous.

So yes most western power plants are not as dangerous, and never will be due to regulations.
 

keinechance

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theultimateend said:
If I had to choose between living next to a Nuclear Plant and a Coal Plant I would choose the first. At least that one requires a cataclysm for it to screw me sideways.
Unless you count the increase of cancer rates due to living next to a NPP.

And no, that is NOT a lie/fake/green propaganda. This has been proven in several long running surveys.
 

Anton P. Nym

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keinechance said:
theultimateend said:
If I had to choose between living next to a Nuclear Plant and a Coal Plant I would choose the first. At least that one requires a cataclysm for it to screw me sideways.
Unless you count the increase of cancer rates due to living next to a NPP.

And no, that is NOT a lie/fake/green propaganda. This has been proven in several long running surveys.
The surveys I've seen showed no detectable increase in cancer rates over national averages, whereas living near coal plants (particularly working in coal mines) showed small but detectable increases... but my information could be old. Can you link to some of those surveys?

-- Steve
 

SilentHunter7

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keinechance said:
theultimateend said:
If I had to choose between living next to a Nuclear Plant and a Coal Plant I would choose the first. At least that one requires a cataclysm for it to screw me sideways.
Unless you count the increase of cancer rates due to living next to a NPP.

And no, that is NOT a lie/fake/green propaganda. This has been proven in several long running surveys.
Were these surveys by the same people whose studies 'clearly' show video games turn people into murderers?

The fact of the matter is, just as many surveys show that living next to a nuke plant causes cancer as there are surveys that show that it doesn't. In fact it's not hard to link coal ash to cancer. Just googling "cancer rates from living next to a coal plant" gave me this [http://www.hometownhazards.com/2007/08/cancer-cluster-confirmed-near-coal.html] as the first hit.

Also, coal plants are known to release up to 3 times more radiation into the environment than a properly operating nuclear plant [http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste]. Try wrapping your head around that one.
 

keinechance

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Anton P. Nym said:
keinechance said:
theultimateend said:
If I had to choose between living next to a Nuclear Plant and a Coal Plant I would choose the first. At least that one requires a cataclysm for it to screw me sideways.
Unless you count the increase of cancer rates due to living next to a NPP.

And no, that is NOT a lie/fake/green propaganda. This has been proven in several long running surveys.
The surveys I've seen showed no detectable increase in cancer rates over national averages, whereas living near coal plants (particularly working in coal mines) showed small but detectable increases... but my information could be old. Can you link to some of those surveys?

-- Steve
(http://www.aerzteblatt.de/v4/archiv/artikel.asp?id=60198)

Sorry it is in german. This articel is posted on an official german health information site, and also includes the opinion that the conclusion they make is not acurate.

SilentHunter7 said:
keinechance said:
theultimateend said:
If I had to choose between living next to a Nuclear Plant and a Coal Plant I would choose the first. At least that one requires a cataclysm for it to screw me sideways.
Unless you count the increase of cancer rates due to living next to a NPP.

And no, that is NOT a lie/fake/green propaganda. This has been proven in several long running surveys.
Were these surveys by the same people whose studies 'clearly' show video games turn people into murderers?

The fact of the matter is, just as many surveys show that living next to a nuke plant causes cancer as there are surveys that show that it doesn't. In fact it's not hard to link coal ash to cancer. Just googling "cancer rates from living next to a coal plant" gave me this [http://www.hometownhazards.com/2007/08/cancer-cluster-confirmed-near-coal.html] as the first hit.

Also, coal plants are known to release up to 3 times more radiation into the environment than a properly operating nuclear plant [http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste]. Try wrapping your head around that one.
I have not said that living next to a coal plant is good for your health

I have said that living next to an NPP is bad for your health.

And the facts, increased cancer rate the nearer you live to an NPP, are not disputed, but the conclusion that this is connected to the operation of the NPP, which I think is a moot point given the facts.
 

SilentHunter7

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keinechance said:
I have not said that living next to a coal plant is good for your health

I have said that living next to an NPP is bad for your health.

And the facts, increased cancer rate the nearer you live to an NPP, are not disputed, but the conclusion that this is connected to the operation of the NPP, which I think is a moot point given the facts.
Yeah, but you said that in reply to a post saying he'd rather live next to a nuke plant than a coal-fired one. So I felt to point out that you get radiation from coal plants.

You also get a higher dosage of radiation from flying in an airplane.

And the facts are disputed, because there are studies that show no difference in cancer risk of people living next to certain power plants than that of the general population.

Of course, some plants have a higher cancer level around them, but that just means people who are living there are getting cancer. Not necessarily that moving there will increase your risk.
 

keinechance

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SilentHunter7 said:
keinechance said:
I have not said that living next to a coal plant is good for your health

I have said that living next to an NPP is bad for your health.

And the facts, increased cancer rate the nearer you live to an NPP, are not disputed, but the conclusion that this is connected to the operation of the NPP, which I think is a moot point given the facts.
Yeah, but you said that in reply to a post saying he'd rather live next to a nuke plant than a coal-fired one. So I felt to point out that you get radiation from coal plants.

You also get a higher dosage of radiation from flying in an airplane.

And the facts are disputed, because there are studies that show no difference in cancer risk of people living next to certain power plants than that of the general population.

Of course, some plants have a higher cancer level around them, but that just means people who are living there are getting cancer. Not necessarily that moving there will increase your risk.
The surveys show that children being born near, and then living near, an NPP have an increased cancer risk. Sometimes even more then 3 times the national average. Yes there are fluctuations with this rate and debate if this is a direct result of the NPP, but the increased risk is apparent in my opinion.
 

Booze Zombie

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It seems the pro-nuclear always go the same argument, where they spend about half an hour insulting hippies who don't understand the basic scientific principles of our world.

Never mind that these energy-generators are being built by companies who will do almost anything to min-max expenditure to profit ratio; I'm sure our governments will spend years talking about how to deal with them before being quietly paid to forget about it and we all continue like nothing happened and treat anyone who raises the issue like a tinfoil-hat wearing lunatic.

The main problem with nuke power is it starts and ends with nuke power, there's not really any... expansion or improvement, there is no amazing way to solve the short-comings of the art of nuclear energy (currently), it just sits there and remains the same as it always does:
Very expensive and when shit goes wrong, it can effect us on a level we can't even see.
 

SilentHunter7

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keinechance said:
The surveys show that children being born near, and then living near, an NPP have an increased cancer risk. Sometimes even more then 3 times the national average. Yes there are fluctuations with this rate and debate if this is a direct result of the NPP, but the increased risk is apparent in my opinion.
The cancer rate of people living around nuclear plants might be elevated, but that does not mean the cancer risk of people living around nuclear plants are. Hell a study might find that the cancer rate of people living within 10 miles of Six Flags is 5% higher than the national average, but that doesn't mean you're more likely to get cancer if you live there.

And if there IS a link between living next to nuke plants, and cancer risk, it has to be caused by something other than radiation exposure, because studies have shown that airline pilots receive a much higher dosage of cosmic radiation (around 0.5 mR per flight-hour) than the radiation given off by nuclear plants (0.01 mR per year), and yet their cancer rate is in line with the general population. Hell, TV's are estimated to expose you to 1 mR of radiation per year. Compare that the average dosage of radiation people get from space, the earth, and man-made sources per year, which is about 300mR.

Basically, my point is, even if the increased cancer rates are caused by the plants, it has to be caused by something other than the radiation.
 

SilentHunter7

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Booze Zombie said:
It seems the pro-nuclear always go the same argument, where they spend about half an hour insulting hippies who don't understand the basic scientific principles of our world.

Never mind that these energy-generators are being built by companies who will do almost anything to min-max expenditure to profit ratio; I'm sure our governments will spend years talking about how to deal with them before being quietly paid to forget about it and we all continue like nothing happened and treat anyone who raises the issue like a tinfoil-hat wearing lunatic.

The main problem with nuke power is it starts and ends with nuke power, there's not really any... expansion or improvement, there is no amazing way to solve the short-comings of the art of nuclear energy (currently), it just sits there and remains the same as it always does:
Very expensive and when shit goes wrong, it can effect us on a level we can't even see.
Except reactor designs are being improved every year. Hell, they even have theoretical designs that are passively safe (which is a fancy way of saying the reaction actually stops itself when the core gets too hot.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor
 

Booze Zombie

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SilentHunter7 said:
Except reactor designs are being improved every year. Hell, they even have theoretical designs that are passively safe (which is a fancy way of saying the reaction actually stops itself when the core gets too hot.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor
I didn't mean quite like that, I simply meant that nuclear is always nuclear, there's no way to turn it into... not-nuclear (how scientific of me).

The nuclear element is always dangerous, there's no-way to "de-fang" it, if you will and I suppose that's what bothers me.
 

Asehujiko

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THEJORRRG said:
Yeah, but if something DOES go wrong, stuff goes, very, horribly wrong.
See: Chernobyl outskirts.
Solutions to that specific problem:
-Don't let the reactor designed by an architect who normally does office buildings simply because he's a bigwig in the communist party.
-Don't let some party bigwigs fire all the competent personnel and replace them with illiterate party members.
-Don't let party bigwigs hijack the controls so they can run some secret tests.
-Don't let said bigwigs forget that they are supposed to pay for/arrange regular maintainable for 10 years, especially with a reactor used outside normal parameters.
-Don't let the same clique of retards disable numerous safety measures for their tests.
-Don't let them keep the fact that they turned off the safeties a secret.
-Don't let them purposefully overheat the reactor just to see what happens.
-Don't let them ignore the advice of their underlings that that's an incredibly stupid thing to do when all of the regular safeties are disabled.
-Don't let them drain the whole thing of cooling water simply because they think that would solve the pressure problem.
-Don't let them cockblock the regular workers who are trying to reverse that error.
-Don't let them go "welp, i'm outta here" and lock the control room behind them instead of fixing it.
-Don't try to keep the accident a secret until a firefighter melts on camera and they can't hide it any longer.

Basically, don't be a stereotype of a horribly mismanaged Soviet bureaucracy.

What happened at Fukushima was that the tsunami rammed an apartment block through the cooling pump station, which is about as far down the list of possibilities that need preparing for as an alien invasion.

Keep in mind that the plant took a 9.0 quake just before that and survived.

Captcha: compute miciel
 

tahrey

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Short answer: Because things at Fukushima are currently AFU, and people's idiot fears lead them to worry that it is actually SNAFU. The news media aren't helping; I thought the BBC were being a bit sensationalist (actually in light of the most recent events, maybe not), but then I caught some CNN reports ... where they were having a nice debate about ALL THE HORRIBLE THINGS THAT CAN COME OUT AND THE MANY WAYS IN WHICH THEY CAN KILL YOU.

Ngh.
This is NOT a Chernobyl type situation - at least, not yet (give it time - but, even so, that happened without warning, and with DEEP hush-hush). It's highly unlikely that the reactor is going to explode and throw bits of enriched uranium into the troposphere to spread over a whole continent. The problem is one of reducing everything that's coming out of there to that single, handy, scare-em-all phrase "radioactive material". Shit, I've got a device on my ceiling with "radioactive material" in it. It sounds a shrill alarm and stops me dying if a fire starts overnight. Am I concerned that it's going to kill me dead from radiation poisoning and/or cancer? Not really.

I've worked as a technologist for a hospital nuclear medicine service, learned the theory, procedures etc behind safely treating radioactive material at close quarters (be respectful, be swift, keep it shielded and locked away as much as possible, but don't fear it) and been quite comfortable with it, and seen the kind of work that goes into engineering plants to be safe and making sure they stay so... and usually I'd brush this stuff off as being sheer paranoia. Unless you're poledancing with a fuel rod, it's not half as bad as you think. The safe dose limits are pretty damn low, and have been successively lowered over the years as we've learned to handle things more effectively AND do more with less.

But really, looking at the situation there, I'm still getting concerned. As someone on QDB said, paraphrasing Ghostbusters "Imagine a twinkie represents the normal amount of Murphy's Law activity at a normal nuclear plant. Fukushima's twinkie would currently be 35ft long, and weigh about 600lbs". Despite the many-decades-old (in fact, not very far away from decomissioning*) plant itself pulling through JAPAN'S WORST EARTHQUAKE IN LIVING MEMORY admirably well, despite the multiple redundant systems and good adherance to (possibly questionable) procedures, there seem to be a few things that have been overlooked because they've never been encountered before (e.g. what if an earthquake is then followed by a tsunami, which knocks out the generators and local grid?) and some other events coming out of the blue with little explanation.

Every last thing is going wrong for them, and it could lead to an "accidental" release on the level of Windscale/Sellafield (we Brits know a thing or two about this sort of incident - we caused a few, back in the days where it was hushed up more effectively) or 3 Mile Island. The very greatest risk is to those in the immediate vicinity though, like within a kilometre or two. 20-30km? Probably fine. The recovery workers will have to be on strict rotations to avoid getting doses that may, possibly, have just-about-statistically-significant long term health effects. Etc.

What I'm puzzled by is the speed and narrow range of the response. By this point I'd have expected all the still-safe, still-operating plants round the country to be on skeleton crew, and a much larger emergency fight going on, with multiple fronts. Get mobile generators in to try and activate the main water pumps, if they're still operable, even just a bit (by now, the heat production should be less than 0.5% of normal... which is still a hell of a lot, but it means if you can get 1% of normal circulation you can have effective cooling). Find some way of dumping a crapload of boric acid and other neutron poisons into the reactor and storage pond water. Investigate ways of extracting and seperating the rods (at least in the pond) so they avoid further accelerated heat production and possible criticality (which will be VERY hard to recover from without a Chernobyl-style concrete sarcophagus ... balance of risk is on the side of doing it ASAP). Get some those forest fire water tanker planes flown over from California (greater water capacity and faster turn-around time, much less pilot risk). Etcetera.

And where, for the love of all that's holy, are the freakin' robots? I know they don't actually have Gundams and animated love dolls, but are there no ROVs available to do SOME of the hot work with and get things moving quicker?

A thing to keep in mind here though, as previously mentioned, is this is a very old reactor. Presumably pre-Chernobyl. They're unlikely to repair and start it up again after all this, because there wasn't much of it's service life left anyway. It's held up remarkably well to extreme, pretty much unpredictable stress, and so far - almost a week later - there's been no serious leak of material. Some radioactive byproducts, sure, and the dose rate on the ground is pretty damn high, but that might as well be from unshielded rods as from contamination. We have somewhat safer designs these days. My particular favourite in all of it would be the "pebble bed" and similar, where it's pretty much impossible to get a meltdown because of the use of uranium-alloy toruses not rods, and even if you did, the fuel is in such small chunks it wouldn't do much, and effectively has built-in control rods (I think you actively have to put neutron accelerators near it - may water itself? - to get useful power production)**. It's apparently not as efficient, so it's been largely shunned til now. But it is a lot safer. I'm not up on the fine details, but I kind of get the impression that if the shinola hits the ventilator, you could just dump the whole lot into some kind of quenching media instead of having to deal with the whole control rod + cooling water business.

* Yeah, it was only two days from retirement when it was shot or whatever.
** Man I really shoulda gone back and re-researched this instead of relying on 2-3 year old memories of doing so... but, time...
 

SilentHunter7

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Booze Zombie said:
I didn't mean quite like that, I simply meant that nuclear is always nuclear, there's no way to turn it into... not-nuclear (how scientific of me).

The nuclear element is always dangerous, there's no-way to "de-fang" it, if you will and I suppose that's what bothers me.
Well yeah, there's always going to be a risk. But you can take steps to minimize the risk. Hell, just look at Japan. A 40-year old reactor was hit with the largest quake in the country's history, got hit by an apartment building surfing on a 20-foot Tsunami, and then suffered 3 hydrogen explosions, 2 fires, and a partial meltdown, and the core is STILL contained. You couldn't do more to blow a reactor up if you were playing Sim City.

And also, you have to consider just how much more risky is Nuclear than coal, oil, or even certain types of clean power, like hydro-electric.

How many ecosystems has oil destroyed? I'm not talking about just the Exxon Valdez spill, or the Deepwater Horizon, but the countless other spills that happen every year that you never hear about.

Coal is one of the most dangerous sources of power in history in terms of lives lost, and ecosystems damaged. Just about 50 miles from where a 40-year old mine fire has turned two cities into ghost towns [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor], and rendered a 500-acre swath of land uninhabitable for, what some people estimate, a thousand years until the fire burns itself out, and toxin levels return to normal.

Hydro-electric power has the blood of thousands on its hands from dam breaks.

Hell, even wood is dangerous. How many poorly maintained fireplaces kill people every year? When cavemen first burned wood for heat, how many forest fires do you think they started?

Accidents are just a consequence of trying to harvest untapped energy, unfortunately. As long as we need huge amounts of power to run the world, there's going to be a risk of a disaster. If there ever was an abundant source of power that was 100% risk-free, and available with our current levels of technology, we'd already be using it.

Well, that's enough gloom and doom from me for one day, I think. :)
 

GonzoGamer

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There were apparently people who fell for the whole "save & clean nuclear power" bit the energy industry has been feeding us.

I know it's an extreme circumstance but if Japan was powered by the sun, they would just have a bunch of panels to replace instead of a potential catastrophe that could kill off the survivors of the other catastrophe they've just been through.

I'm constantly amazed that so many people really believe everything big industries tells them. These must be the same people who are really popular at the new car lots.
 

keinechance

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SilentHunter7 said:
keinechance said:
The surveys show that children being born near, and then living near, an NPP have an increased cancer risk. Sometimes even more then 3 times the national average. Yes there are fluctuations with this rate and debate if this is a direct result of the NPP, but the increased risk is apparent in my opinion.
The cancer rate of people living around nuclear plants might be elevated, but that does not mean the cancer risk of people living around nuclear plants are. Hell a study might find that the cancer rate of people living within 10 miles of Six Flags is 5% higher than the national average, but that doesn't mean you're more likely to get cancer if you live there.

And if there IS a link between living next to nuke plants, and cancer risk, it has to be caused by something other than radiation exposure, because studies have shown that airline pilots receive a much higher dosage of cosmic radiation (around 0.5 mR per flight-hour) than the radiation given off by nuclear plants (0.01 mR per year), and yet their cancer rate is in line with the general population. Hell, TV's are estimated to expose you to 1 mR of radiation per year. Compare that the average dosage of radiation people get from space, the earth, and man-made sources per year, which is about 300mR.

Basically, my point is, even if the increased cancer rates are caused by the plants, it has to be caused by something other than the radiation.
I'm not quite sure I understand your argument.

The cancer RISK of children under 14 living near an NPP, is 13% higher then average. ( Survey in germany)

A study by the epidemiologist Eberhard Greiser has collected date from the cancer registry and statistic offices of 5 different countrys. Data was collected from 80 different NPP's in Germany, France, Great Britain, Canada and the USA. The children living 20-50 km around these NPP's have a significantly higher number of leukemia cases, up to 24% increase above average. This increase is noted around each plant in the survey.

And even if the rise is not caused by the radiation, which I find unlikely, it is still caused by the NPP, so something is wrong one way or another.
 

keinechance

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If you understand german and are interessted in additional information about this, then I recommend "Quarks & Co" the show from 15.03.2011 here> http://www.wdr.de/tv/quarks/videos/uebersicht.jsp

They provide pretty reasonable information in this show about all kinds of subjects.
 

dogenzakaminion

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What's funnier is that the Japanese plants were designed to be able to tolerate earthquakes up to 7.5 on the Richter scale. This one was 9.0, and even if they build plants that can withstand that, there might be an earthquake at 10 or 11. I get that people are scared of it, but for some countries there isn't another alternative. Lack of resources mean they have to go nuclear and they can't just buy all their energy.