Why do people think it's ok to pirate games?

[DuX1112]

If it has already been said then my post serves to reiterate it. Whichever way you look at it, pirating is a crime - it is obtaining an object (namely the game) without paying for it, something people have invested time and money in creating. if it was a wicker chair in a big warehouse full of wicker chairs you might say, oh no one will be hurt except the money grabbing company huf huf.

So let me guess: the whole damn Western hemisphere is paying for games, EA and such companies are monetary behemoths who could successfully fund their own space exploration program, and yet, not paying a ton of money for a plastic disc in a cardboard box, containing a piece of software that entertains some 20 hours or so, is a cardinal sin? Boy some people are weird! Or yeah, maybe you can afford games no harder than affording chewing gums, or having a beer, so who cares, who would bother to "steal" a game?

Yet, would we deny it is stealing? No. Nothing annoys me more however than this justification:

"Well, I have no respect for the money grabbing developers, "forcing" me to buy a game when I dont even know if its any good, I could waste £45! If I like the game, I will go out and buy it anyway."

Who makes those kinds of excuses? Let me "enlighten" you: maybe the guy who lives in a country where a single original game costs, comparably, the same as the monthly food basket. That's me, pleased to meet you. Hell, even rich folks consider it a luxury buying original games here .

Ooo this one kills me, If I like it, I will buy it. As if this is gloriously commendable - "You WILL buy a game you played? Oh, well done you." Games, films, like anything else, is a roulette whether you'll like it when you get it home. As a little boy you bought a toy car in a shop, but when you got it home you realised it wasnt quite what you wanted! Oh no! Disappointment!

Oh yeah? Riddle me this:

1. Do you leaf through a book before you decide on buying it? Yes. Can you read an entire chapter of said book if you wanted to? Yes. Does it help you decide on purchasing it? Yes. Enough said.

2. Do you watch movie trailers before you buy a movie? Yes. Can you go watch the movie in the cinema before you decide on buying a copy for infinite viewing at home? Yes. Does it help you decide on purchasing said movie? Yes. Can you invite all your friends at your place and enjoy a movie night by sharing said movie? Yes. Enough said.

3. Do you taste a cheese in your local supermarket before you buy it? Yes. Can you ask for another nibble before you make up your mind? Yes. Does it help you decide on purchasing said cheese? Hell yes. Enough said.

4. Do you play demos of games before they are released? Yes and No, because not every game gets a demo nowadays, and more importantly - the demos are a part of the unfinished product and therefore not a very valid representation of the final product. Hell, I can remember tons of demos who displayed the final products poorly, and people were fooled. A demo can't be trusted as a book in a store can. A demo can't be trusted as you can trust the movie shown at your cinema. A demo can't be trusted as a piece of tasty cheese can.

So: Can you play an entire level (several levels) of a game free of charge? Yes if it's included in the demo, otherwise No. (See reasons above).

So: Does this help you decide on purchasing said game? If the case was Yes, then Yes, it did. But if the case was No, then No it didn't. And No, you probably won't buy the game - and voila, there you go, a lost sale.

So, tell me -- why is it okay to leaf through/read a finished, printed novel in a bookstore, why is it okay to go and watch a whole movie at the cinema, and why it isn't okay to test a finished game, check out how it feels, free of charge, and then decide whether you want to buy it?

And don't tell me they can't do it because "it's a different medium, blah blah blah". They can do anything, they just don't want to.

If you don't like a game when you BUY it, trade it in, sell it on ebay, give it to your friend.

Let me tell you something. I've bought, played, tested, 'acquired' many, many pirated games. I've paid for a large portion of them too. And in my experience, I regret I even bothered to get every second game I own, you know why? Because at least a third of them are buggy, and at least half of them I didn't like, for various reasons. Examples: Red Alert 3, C&C4, and tons of others. The trouble is, with a game, that you never know how the game would feel to you unless you at least get to play a level or two. So yeah, maybe I've paid far less money on the same games you guys paid - but I value my money just the same, and getting disappointed / fooled from a game just because you purchased it before you could decide whether you'd like it or not is called ripping off. Customer "guidance" or whatever euphemism they use.

EDIT: Oh no! Trade it, sell it on Ebay, or give it to your friend!? But that way, you'd be costing the company a whole new sale! The company will lose money if you do that, it will lose a sale! Stop, immediately! You're shamelessly advocating piracy and hurting big business!

Stealing it off some sleezy website is disgusting. Any argument that even touches on the fact that the they have enough money and you have not alot, what a sad arguement. If you are stealing food in order to survive till tomorrow, you might have my sympathy, but to get Splinter Cell Conviction for nothing? GO AWAY.

Stealing? Is downloading something that someone put somewhere called stealing now? Plus, I can't get it otherwise. And no, getting something the only way I could, without hurting anybody, isn't disgusting. It's called need and ingenuity. Two things that make the world go around.

And who's to stop me from downloading something that's free to download, that someone put on a server somewhere half a planet away? What, if food was suddenly copyrighted, and if I could download it for free thanks to a guy who put it "out there" for others to help themselves, I'd be stealing? You better get your record straight.

But never mind games, I can't purchase original movies nor music anywhere near my place. And I'm talking hundreds of kilometers in each direction. So, according to you, what am I supposed to do, just never watch a movie and just hum myself a tune I accidentally heard on TV when I was home? Sure, the rest of Earth will just conveniently make do with stick and stones just because Western Monetary System isn't making our laws yet. Pathetic.

And no, our laws aren't that effective yet when it comes to piracy. We're not U.S. citizens, the EULA is worthless, and we have our laws by which we govern ourselves, thank you very much. Fortunately, we don't suffer from parasitic pompous mega-corporations who allow themselves the freedom to meddle with where, when, and how you can play the game you bought.

---

As I said: if games were offered at fair prices in accordance with our income, we'd buy them, no problem. If not, we'll just make do with what we have, no problem.

 

[DuX1112]

EDIT: The nearest shop selling original game titles is in the capital, some 100+ kilometers from where I live. Trip to there = 2 hours, + trip to there and back ~ 18 EUR. So I have to travel to another city, and spend half my salary on a blockbuster game. Thanks, but no thanks.

Greetings. Nice meeting you. Anyway, you reminded me of a Macedonian friend from a forum a while ago. He told me he has no stores where he can buy original games in the whole Macedonia. That was six years ago, though.

I'd really like to buy more original games then I do. In fact, I'd like to play only original games, it's I just that can't afford them, like many of us in under developed countries. We can afford them only a few years later when the price drops. Or stuff like The Orange Box (god bless you, Valve). But hey, MGS4 still costs 70 euro here. But hey, I guess it's okay too live in monetary better situated countries and moan about us being poor and able to afford only two original games in a year.

Greetings Babitz.

Anyways, yes, there are still no shops where one can buy an original title, well at least not in my city. The only one I'm aware of is located in the trade center in Skopje, the capital of Macedonia. But tough luck - they were always too expensive for my pocket - and hundreds of kilometers away.

I understand you on the issue of buying online games. I want to play some MMORPG too, but I want to do it legally. There are plenty of pirate servers for WoW, etc., but since I'm a huge SF fan, I wanted to have a chance to play EVE Online, Star Trek Online, and Star Wars: The Old Republic the way they should be played (without locking the servers down, kicking you out or sth). But tough luck: they're all too expensive, plus finding a way to pay online from here is a struggle. So I'd rather wait till things improve.

And heh, 70 EUR for MGS4, no shit? Now that's a bit extreme. Hell, some people here get payed that much for a whole month, doing 12 hour work in factories!

Anyways, heh, I don't moan, I'm just fine. My gaming hobby is doing well. But I just don't want people accusing me for stealing or whatever. They're just misinformed. Sure, I'd like to buy myself an original game each month, or week, but I just don't see how I could do that without starving or getting kicked out of home.

I also suggested a solution - some extra budget versions, legal versions, but affordable. And we would all be happy. And the Western world would finally welcome the precious gamer materiel we, the rest of the world, can offer. :]

I only want to be given a fair chance, dammit...

 

[Gindil]

My line of thinking is since you didn't pay for it your stealing, and well stealing is wrong and a criminal action thus don't pirate game.

i) If people think they can get away with it they will do anything. This is why murders take place in areas with the death penalty, no-one ever commits a crime assuming they will get caught.

Uhm... Jump in logic isn't this? Murders happen in places without the death penalty. There's been people on death row for decades while their trials go through the ringer. But one doesn't necessarily cause the other. You might need a better analogy.

iii) The publishers of games actively punish you for buying their product (see DRM, activation limits etc), why pay good money for a flawed product when you can steal it and get a better service at the same time?

Obviously it's more complicated than that, but they're the major points these days.
Personally I think publishers would do better looking at ways to shift the consequences of piracy onto the pirates. Rather than their current approach of attacking the paying customer with everything they have, because that is counter productive.

No, no no... We aren't stealing anything. No tangible copies are being traded between people. For all intents and purposes, we're infringing on copyrights or EULA, but stealing is something entirely different. Personally, I agree with the last part because I played Starcraft from a friend, liked it and bought my own copy. The standard today is to say that would be stealing. Which really IS BS.

 

[LordZ]

Ok well then if you want to get into it deeper then when you go the game you had to agree to the end user agreement, or whatever it is called, when you installed the game, by making copies of the game you are breaking the contract and the law, another person takes a copy of what you made, getting the same product for free, and is thus breaking the law again, basically you are taking something that has monetary value and not paying for it.

EULAs have been proven to be meaningless since they're trying to force you to agree to it after you already made a purchase. As for copying games, there's no law that says it is theft. There is a law that says it is copyright infringement. So, even by legal standards, copying is not theft.

I already stated in my original post why both the copyright and patent systems are fail. Try actually reading a post before you reply to it.

 

[ImprovizoR]

My country doesn't really have any laws that would prevent piracy. There are some very specific copyright laws but nothing to prevent music, movies and software piracy. And since we are not a part of EU there is also no higher authority to prevent you from pirating. If you were in this kind of situation, what would you do? I still like to purchase games because I like those nice boxes, and because of MP in some cases.

 

[fix-the-spade]

You might need a better analogy.

I suspect you're right...

It was the most extreme example of the 'they'll never know it was me,' mentality I could think of. I was trying to elaborate that people (or many people) do not avoid certain actions because of their moral compass, but fear of the consequences of not doing so.
You're right, murder was a bad example.

That's an interesting argument that, but I would consider data (or rather, the knowledge/experience/product the data is organised to show you) to be a tangible product. Granted you can't reach out and touch data (or a game) as such, but it definately exists as you can interact with it.

But would copying data without permission be stealing... seeing as the originator doesn't actually lose anything... except the potential for using said data for their own gain, which what the data was created for in the first place... so does rendering it's intended purpose moot count as stealing... oh boy, I'm getting a headache.

 

[Gindil]

Ok well then if you want to get into it deeper then when you go the game you had to agree to the end user agreement, or whatever it is called, when you installed the game, by making copies of the game you are breaking the contract and the law, another person takes a copy of what you made, getting the same product for free, and is thus breaking the law again, basically you are taking something that has monetary value and not paying for it.

Unfortunately, I'm reading through the entire thread and I'm seeing little information from you. All I'm seeing is that you're stating the same position without anything backing it up.

It's not that I want to pick apart an argument, but I'm trying to keep the information straight on what is law, how it's changed, and why it should be changed again. However, what you've stating is more extreme than factual. Here, you're talking about the EULA and copyright law. Someone has already responded to one (LordZ - EULA) and I'll respond to copyright law.

I talked about fair use as well as copyright infringement once. Fair use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use] is a doctrine that is our right to copy, distribute (in small amounts), parody, or discuss our culture or entertainment. As mentioned before, the DMCA [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmca] usurped that, giving copyright a cruel, corporate twist. Now, you can be sued [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_v._Tenenbaum] for exorbitant amounts of money, to larger corporations, for a small amount of songs.

Fair is not the right use for corporate bullying. I'm convinced that laws can be changed, especially when they're out of whack. Rather than sitting here and stating "It's the law" there are quite a few things we can do:

Talk discuss options with the EFF [http://www.eff.org/]
Get music from different sources such as Dmusic [http://www.dmusic.com/]
Borrow more movies from friends and netflix (btw, Blockbuster is hemorrhaging money right now. Netflix is the better service with streaming and no physical stores. Watch a movie online. Perfect! That's business)

Play more Free [http://armorgames.com/] games [http://www.newgrounds.com/]

Regardless, the rules on piracy are a grey area. Trying to make them black and white is bound to be a lesson in futility. It's not so clear cut when we, the consumers, are losing our right to do anything (reverse engineering, bug patching) all because supposedly, the corporation knows best.

 

[Cody211282]

Ok well then if you want to get into it deeper then when you go the game you had to agree to the end user agreement, or whatever it is called, when you installed the game, by making copies of the game you are breaking the contract and the law, another person takes a copy of what you made, getting the same product for free, and is thus breaking the law again, basically you are taking something that has monetary value and not paying for it.

Unfortunately, I'm reading through the entire thread and I'm seeing little information from you. All I'm seeing is that you're stating the same position without anything backing it up.

It's not that I want to pick apart an argument, but I'm trying to keep the information straight on what is law, how it's changed, and why it should be changed again. However, what you've stating is more extreme than factual. Here, you're talking about the EULA and copyright law. Someone has already responded to one (LordZ - EULA) and I'll respond to copyright law.

I talked about fair use as well as copyright infringement once. Fair use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use] is a doctrine that is our right to copy, distribute (in small amounts), parody, or discuss our culture or entertainment. As mentioned before, the DMCA [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmca] usurped that, giving copyright a cruel, corporate twist. Now, you can be sued [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_v._Tenenbaum] for exorbitant amounts of money, to larger corporations, for a small amount of songs.

Fair is not the right use for corporate bullying. I'm convinced that laws can be changed, especially when they're out of whack. Rather than sitting here and stating "It's the law" there are quite a few things we can do:

Talk discuss options with the EFF [http://www.eff.org/]
Get music from different sources such as Dmusic [http://www.dmusic.com/]
Borrow more movies from friends and netflix (btw, Blockbuster is hemorrhaging money right now. Netflix is the better service with streaming and no physical stores. Watch a movie online. Perfect! That's business)

Play more Free [http://armorgames.com/] games [http://www.newgrounds.com/]

Regardless, the rules on piracy are a grey area. Trying to make them black and white is bound to be a lesson in futility. It's not so clear cut when we, the consumers, are losing our right to do anything (reverse engineering, bug patching) all because supposedly, the corporation knows best.

Ok it's fair to say that That I have been saying the same then, then again I have basically just been asked the same thing over and over, mostly just a variant of "well I can and I don't like other peoples rules so why shouldn't I?" And as you pointed out the EULA is basically a the company being sneaky legal bastards. Some of the other arguments like, "because they cost to much" and "I hate big companys" hold no weight when you read this

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1999

it points out that World of Goo was $20 when it came out and had no DRM yet it about 90% of the people pirated it. Also as for the "because I can" I would like to know why they think they have a scene of entitlement to free games normal people have to pay for(thus shouldering the responsibility of supporting the company we like so they make more games we like).

As for it being a moral gray the problem I have with that is you are doing something akin to stealing no matter how you look at it you are taking something that has monetary value and thinking you deserve to have it for free(this is were most people would put some sort of metaphor to prove their point but every single one that people have said has sucked, mostly because this is a rather unique scenario because of how it is done).

And you do put your point across well, I may not agree with it but very nice work putting it together.

Edit: I would also want to say that netflix is awesome, now if they could do that with computer games (obviously not MMO's because that would be impossible) that would be rather awesome and something I would sign up for.

 

[Cody211282]

snip

coming froma guy who would murder someone in cold blood right off the bat, your mud slinging means nothing to me.

Yes because it was ether 1 guy dies or a 101 do, it's called triage, look it up, and you are just a sick bastard that think rape victims deserve it.

On the contrary I only stated those who willingly go into the prostitution area of work deserved it. I specifically stated those who did not were not included.

If you're going to try and slander me please get the facts straight. Plus I also countered your points about the cave senario. You chose out right cold blooded MURDER, rather than trying to get him free. Pretty sure with 100 people you could either dig push or pull him out.

No you are stating that most people who get raped are prostitutes and that just isn't the true, hell just because they are one doesn't mean it's right to rape them anyway and I have no idea how you can justify that.

As for the cave, from what I read was the only one that could do anything, no help, no tools, it was ether he dies or they all die, I picked that only one did.

 

[asgardmothership]

Ok, this is going to be a complicated response, and I am not used to forums but here goes:

and yet, not paying a ton of money for a plastic disc in a cardboard box, containing a piece of software that entertains some 20 hours or so, is a cardinal sin?

Cardinal, no. Stealing, yes. It doesnt matter how worthless it looks in the plastic box, time and energy went into its creation, you should pay to enjoy that.

Who makes those kinds of excuses? Let me "enlighten" you: maybe the guy who lives in a country where a single original game costs, comparably, the same as the monthly food basket. That's me, pleased to meet you. Hell, even rich folks consider it a luxury buying original games here .

I'm sorry, but I'm not clear how this really relates to the issue of piracy. It is of course obvious that in some parts of the world, in doubtless terrible conditions money that western people are able to spend on games amounts to the same as the cost of a month's worth of food. And, in such a case, such a person of course prioritises food over luxuries like gaming. But hold on. You have a computer. And an internet connection. And a computer capable of playing games, priated or no. If I may be so bold you do not sound like someone who spends all their money on food.

Oh yeah? Riddle me this:

1. Do you leaf through a book before you decide on buying it? Yes. Can you read an entire chapter of said book if you wanted to? Yes. Does it help you decide on purchasing it? Yes. Enough said.

your other points about demos (see above everyone else) just boils down to the same as this point so i didnt reproduce it. You take a sample of something to decide whether you buy it. Absolutely, demos, reviews, go for it. I was talking, and it was quite clear, about people using a product in its entirety, not a free sample.

but I value my money just the same, and getting disappointed / fooled from a game just because you purchased it before you could decide whether you'd like it or not is called ripping off.

As I said this is a risk you take. If you buy a game and it promises 4 player splitscreen co-op, and it doesnt have it, that is fooling you. Promising "awesome action" and you don't agree is, frankly, your problem.

Stealing? Is downloading something that someone put somewhere called stealing now?[....] And who's to stop me from downloading something that's free to download, that someone put on a server somewhere half a planet away?

If it wasn't thiers to put there, sounds like stealing to me - procurement of stolen goods if you prefer.

And no, getting something the only way I could, without hurting anybody, isn't disgusting. It's called need and ingenuity.

Yes I believe this was the argument the great dimond theives used, glass cutters, zip lines, didnt hurt anyone!

But never mind games, I can't purchase original movies nor music anywhere near my place. And I'm talking hundreds of kilometers in each direction. So, according to you, what am I supposed to do, just never watch a movie and just hum myself a tune I accidentally heard on TV when I was home? Sure, the rest of Earth will just conveniently make do with stick and stones just because Western Monetary System isn't making our laws yet. Pathetic.

And no, our laws aren't that effective yet when it comes to piracy. We're not U.S. citizens, the EULA is worthless, and we have our laws by which we govern ourselves, thank you very much. Fortunately, we don't suffer from parasitic pompous mega-corporations who allow themselves the freedom to meddle with where, when, and how you can play the game you bought.

This sounds like more of a rant against the rest of the world, than it is on the issue of piracy, a situation we sitting on the escapist website arent exactly in a position to solve or even really comment on. Also bragging about the state of your piracy laws is a bit "well no one NOTICED me stealing the dimond."

My comments were not a jab at the 3rd world, that they should spend their pennies on Batman: Arkham Asylem instead of food. The fact that inequality exists is unfortunate but if we are to lay it on the line

I live in a wealthy western country, I have ample food, disposable income. some of which goes on games. However, there are many MUCH richer than me. They can afford private jets, million pound homes and dimond encrusted ipods. Now, I could never afford a private jet. Really, if they are not to make private jets in my price-range, £100 ish is fair I would think, then I'll just have to steal it?

I do not live in a world of private jets, and people in the 3rd world, it must be said, do not live in a world of video games. If every day is a constant struggle to survive, I imagine largely they dont give a toss about video games, I know I wouldnt.

DuX112, if you can afford a gaming computer, an internet connection, then you are clearly much luckier than those around you. Though you apparently live hundreds of kilometers from the nearest GAME outlet, might I suggest direct2drive or steam.

 

[Gindil]

Ok it's fair to say that That I have been saying the same then, then again I have basically just been asked the same thing over and over, mostly just a variant of "well I can and I don't like other peoples rules so why shouldn't I?" And as you pointed out the EULA is basically a the company being sneaky legal bastards. Some of the other arguments like, "because they cost to much" and "I hate big companys" hold no weight when you read this

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1999

Something to point out with WoG. It made a profit. Even when they had it for whatever amount you wanted, they made a profit on the game. I personally gave them 5$ as a poor college student. Game is great.

it points out that World of Goo was $20 when it came out and had no DRM yet it about 90% of the people pirated it. Also as for the "because I can" I would like to know why they think they have a scene of entitlement to free games normal people have to pay for(thus shouldering the responsibility of supporting the company we like so they make more games we like).

True, but it's not our job to police the world. Anyone in the entertainment business is going to have to deal with this sense of entitlement. Say I don't want my books that I'm writing to go into libraries across the world. Should I really have that much control over my work? It's downright selfish of me, but there's no actual archive of video games. Admittedly, every game is for profit in some way shape or form. But the best analogy is the renting service. You get a game (or movie) watch it, then you can decide if you ever want to buy it again. I remember getting Breath of Fire II in Blockbuster and renting it for weeks until I could complete it. And this was a feat! I'd be late on it sometimes, or I'd rent it and my save file was gone because someone saved over it. To this day, I don't have BoF II in my collection, but I have the memories of it.

As for it being a moral gray the problem I have with that is you are doing something akin to stealing no matter how you look at it you are taking something that has monetary value and thinking you deserve to have it for free(this is were most people would put some sort of metaphor to prove their point but every single one that people have said has sucked, mostly because this is a rather unique scenario because of how it is done).

And you do put your point across well, I may not agree with it but very nice work putting it together.

Edit: I would also want to say that netflix is awesome, now if they could do that with computer games (obviously not MMO's because that would be impossible) that would be rather awesome and something I would sign up for.

See above for the moral quandary. Honestly, most of the studios that have issues with piracy probably have other things going on. As I've mentioned before, used sales are a revenue source that EA or Activision want a part of but can't because of how first sale [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine] works in the US.

And if you really want games for rent... [http://video-game-rental-review.toptenreviews.com/] *whistles innocently*

Just be careful with EA coming for your first born.

 

[DuX1112]

SNIP

Cardinal, no. Stealing, yes. It doesnt matter how worthless it looks in the plastic box, time and energy went into its creation, you should pay to enjoy that.

But you don't get it -- I DID PAY to enjoy that. As I said, not as much as you did because prices are different here and we don't have the commodity to have shops selling original products - so we buy from whomever sells. Other times, no I didn't pay because there was no one to pay to. Who would you pay if you found a copy of Gears of War just lying on the street, with a little sign on it saying "Free games everyone"?

SNIP

I'm sorry, but I'm not clear how this really relates to the issue of piracy. It is of course obvious that in some parts of the world, in doubtless terrible conditions money that western people are able to spend on games amounts to the same as the cost of a month's worth of food. And, in such a case, such a person of course prioritises food over luxuries like gaming. But hold on. You have a computer. And an internet connection. And a computer capable of playing games, priated or no. If I may be so bold you do not sound like someone who spends all their money on food.

Again, you don't seem to understand. It's not that games are more expensive here. The thing is that the food, and almost everything else is much cheaper here (I'd say normally priced) - including our salaries, which are comparably lower and are just fine for providing things like food, Internet access, PCs, clothing, and what not. The thing is, original video games that are being sold here have, so to speak, "western" prices which don't fit our standard, and hence, they are too expensive for us to buy.

So, what I'm trying to tell you is that we don't have any problem with our priorities (we have food and internet, alright) - but we will have problems prioritising if we were to start buying 70EUR MGS4s. One MGS4 would probably equate the lowest monthly salary in my country (the illegal lowest salary). That's why people here would rather buy a pirated game for 2 euros to 5 euros, tops, and thus support piracy (and many of them do this unknowingly). But you see, what I'm trying to tell you is that the "high" prices for games in my country make people reach for the cheaper pirated versions and support piracy. What I'm saying is that the game industry itself is, by doing this, actually promoting piracy because it pushes people away from its overpriced products.

I'm aware that maybe this is difficult for you to understand because we have been raised in a different setting, but think some more about it and imagine you were in my place, and maybe you'll understand. And no, most people here don't care about U.S. law and it's EULA - many haven't even heard of the thing. Why would they? To them, it's a pretty irrelevant, absurd matter (they DO pay for what they purchase, but from pirates, who wouldn't exist in the first place if EA and Ubisoft would sell their games cheaper here).

And rest assured, if I was in your place, and I had the money, I would buy original games. But for now, from where I'm standing, that's both an impossibility and an existential suicide.

Oh yeah? Riddle me this:

1. Do you leaf through a book before you decide on buying it? Yes. Can you read an entire chapter of said book if you wanted to? Yes. Does it help you decide on purchasing it? Yes. Enough said.

your other points about demos (see above everyone else) just boils down to the same as this point so i didnt reproduce it. You take a sample of something to decide whether you buy it. Absolutely, demos, reviews, go for it. I was talking, and it was quite clear, about people using a product in its entirety, not a free sample.

And I was saying that people should have the right to a FREE sample of the FINISHED product. Not a beta version or a demo or whatever, because you sure don't taste beta-cheese and you don't leaf through a demo-book in the shops. So why should we "try" beta/demo unfinished games instead of having permission to take the finished product for a test-drive? Where's the problem with that?

I think I know where it is: games will lose their "ripping off" factor. Suddenly, if 100.000 people played through the first 2 levels of C&C4 for free, and guess what? 60.000 people won't buy it. Again, we are faced with every publisher's greatest nightmare: LOST SALES. Well sales won't be lost if they made a good game, but unfortunately, even with the "rip off" factor in their sleeve, they're still losing sales, and money. And it's not the gamers fault, not the consumer's fault, but it's the producer's fault for not investing enough brilliance in a game of such epic renown.

but I value my money just the same, and getting disappointed / fooled from a game just because you purchased it before you could decide whether you'd like it or not is called ripping off.

As I said this is a risk you take. If you buy a game and it promises 4 player splitscreen co-op, and it doesnt have it, that is fooling you. Promising "awesome action" and you don't agree is, frankly, your problem.

I never complained about a game not having "awesome action". The problem is in the "feeling" you get whet you start the game. For example, is it immersive enough? Does it suit you? Do you like the start, the intro, the menus? How do you like the first 3 missions? What do you think about the atmosphere in the game? How do you feel about the game? Would you like to finish it? If YES, please purchase the full product.

That's how things should go. Just as it is with books, movies, or fine cheese. You pick a finished product, you test the product, and then you decide if you can take the product home with you, or wherever. And not: "Hey, here's a game for you. It's the latest Red Alert. Look, what an awesome box! This game is the true and worthy follower of the RA saga!" And sure, you think, sure it is! MAN, RED ALERT 3! RA2 WAS AWESOME, I CAN'T WAIT TO PLAY THIS! Good times! (And then you buy the game, install it, and surprise surprise - all of a sudden RA becomes a cartoon with funny sounding battles and a story stripped of any meaningful meaning. Oh, well, it's my fault, I let the vendor trick me. He's not to blame, he was just feeding me false info - pretty common, acceptable thing nowadays. I'm the one to blame. Maybe if I buy MANY MORE GAMES, luckily, this will happen less to me).

Stealing? Is downloading something that someone put somewhere called stealing now?[....] And who's to stop me from downloading something that's free to download, that someone put on a server somewhere half a planet away?

If it wasn't thiers to put there, sounds like stealing to me - procurement of stolen goods if you prefer.

But it WAS theirs - they BOUGHT it. Then probably cracked it or whatever. Removed all malicious DRM. And put it clean on the net, for everyone who paid a fortune for a protected, unplayable AC2, to download a free, clean version of the game. And of course, for everyone else. They don't make a profit out of it, which isn't a crime. See, pirates do many people a favor. To people like you too. For one, at least they deal with DRMs. And seems to me, pirates are the only defense of the "fair buyers". It would be a lot worse if it weren't for them to provide you with a backup copy of a faulty game you just purchased. Of course, if you're rich enough, you can always buy another copy of the same game. Or wait for months for a patch before they finally pull the plug on the game (like they did with Empire: Total War). Be my guest.

And no, getting something the only way I could, without hurting anybody, isn't disgusting. It's called need and ingenuity.

Yes I believe this was the argument the great dimond theives used, glass cutters, zip lines, didnt hurt anyone!

Well they didn't. It's diamonds, for Christ's sakes, it's not like you're shooting people by the thousands, jeez! Such comparisons don't hold water. It's a well known fact that piracy in developing countries and in the third world countries actually benefits the companies like EA etc. Why? Because EA don't spend ANYTHING (because people buy their own discs and copy) and yet they reap the rewards (popularity, worldwide fame and fandom). You'd be amazed at the popularity of Counter Strike and Warcraft 3 in my country, and yet 99% of all copies in use are pirated copies. Yet people tattoo "Blizzard" on their skin, and draw endless iterations of Arthas, etc. It's LOVE, I tell you.

But of course, according to U.S. law, those people steal (even if they're on the Moon), so they must be evil. The Great Colonizer's diamonds must be protected!

Sheesh...

But never mind games, I can't purchase original movies nor music anywhere near my place. And I'm talking hundreds of kilometers in each direction. So, according to you, what am I supposed to do, just never watch a movie and just hum myself a tune I accidentally heard on TV when I was home? Sure, the rest of Earth will just conveniently make do with stick and stones just because Western Monetary System isn't making our laws yet. Pathetic.

And no, our laws aren't that effective yet when it comes to piracy. We're not U.S. citizens, the EULA is worthless, and we have our laws by which we govern ourselves, thank you very much. Fortunately, we don't suffer from parasitic pompous mega-corporations who allow themselves the freedom to meddle with where, when, and how you can play the game you bought.

This sounds like more of a rant against the rest of the world, than it is on the issue of piracy, a situation we sitting on the escapist website arent exactly in a position to solve or even really comment on. Also bragging about the state of your piracy laws is a bit "well no one NOTICED me stealing the dimond."

My comments were not a jab at the 3rd world, that they should spend their pennies on Batman: Arkham Asylem instead of food. The fact that inequality exists is unfortunate but if we are to lay it on the line

I live in a wealthy western country, I have ample food, disposable income. some of which goes on games. However, there are many MUCH richer than me. They can afford private jets, million pound homes and dimond encrusted ipods. Now, I could never afford a private jet. Really, if they are not to make private jets in my price-range, £100 ish is fair I would think, then I'll just have to steal it?

I do not live in a world of private jets, and people in the 3rd world, it must be said, do not live in a world of video games. If every day is a constant struggle to survive, I imagine largely they dont give a toss about video games, I know I wouldnt.

DuX112, if you can afford a gaming computer, an internet connection, then you are clearly much luckier than those around you. Though you apparently live hundreds of kilometers from the nearest GAME outlet, might I suggest direct2drive or steam.

No pal, I'm sorry. I'm not ranting against other countries, but stating some facts. Fact is that foreign laws don't apply to other countries. Fact is that every country takes care of its own laws and legislature. Fact is that each country has its own priorities and not all priorities are shared with U.S. law. Fact is that your "diamond stealing" analogy doesn't work here.

And no, all of us don't live in a world of private jets and whatever. But all of us (who know what a TV is) indeed LIVE in a world of music, movies, books and games - for half a century now. That's a fact.

And about your other "points", see above where I explain things exactly as they are. I'm not royalty in Macedonia, I belong to the middle class. I said that PCs are cheaper here, food too (you can get a new PC for as low as 180EUR here - so as much as 90% of the population owns PCs, rest assured. Internet access costs as low as 10EUR a month, which is cheap. We also have country-wide Wi-Fi. We're not that backward, worry not, feel free to visit, we'll go bathe in Lake Ohrid, get stuffed with delicious food, hit on girls and get megadrunk, etc. - whatever you can think of) It's just that games are a tad more expensive than everything else. For comparison, Metal Gear Solid 4 costs 70EUR in Croatia (nearly half a PC), and I've seen that regularly, original games in Macedonia cost around 50EUR, some 70EUR, others 20, 30, 15, you name it. But as I said many times before, it's hardly feasible.

And please have in mind that we're a well-fed, educated, internet-present, modern nation, and we have everything a good living needs to have. Problem is, games sold at American, European, or British prices are a bit too salty for us. I'd recommend removing some of the excess salt and refining the product a bit. Just a disc, a paper package and a user account. Simplify, cheapen, mass-produce and sell. That is, if you want to defeat piracy once and for all. If not, let them keep their New York prices in Skopje.

I'm sure even more dust will settle on the untouched boxes of the WoW copies we have there.

And yet people will be playing the games, regardless of not buying them.

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Thanks for the conversation, asgardmothership. Even though we may not agree, I appreciate it. Sorry if I caused you any inconvenience, handling lengthy conversations is sometimes tiring. Especially when one has much translation to do (me). Oh, well...

EDIT: I apologize for the lengthy/messy post, but I'm kinda new with this and the quoting system needs some time to master.
EDIT: I don't think Steam and Direct2Drive work here. At least I have to have a VISA or a Mastercard, which I still don't have. Cards are a relatively new thing here. Bye.

 

[DuX1112]

See above for the moral quandary. Honestly, most of the studios that have issues with piracy probably have other things going on. As I've mentioned before, used sales are a revenue source that EA or Activision want a part of but can't because of how first sale [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine] works in the US.

"The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy end once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made. This doctrine is also referred to as the "first sale rule" or "exhaustion rule."

Oh, I didn't know that! Nice!

 

[ObsessiveSketch]

<img src=http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/ObsessiveSketch/whypirate.jpg?t=1271577105>
The image says it all.

 

[asgardmothership]

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Thanks for the conversation, asgardmothership. Even though we may not agree, I appreciate it. Sorry if I caused you any inconvenience, handling lengthy conversations is sometimes tiring. Especially when one has much translation to do (me). Oh, well...

EDIT: I apologize for the lengthy/messy post, but I'm kinda new with this and the quoting system needs some time to master.
EDIT: I don't think Steam and Direct2Drive work here. At least I have to have a VISA or a Mastercard, which I still don't have. Cards are a relatively new thing here. Bye.

And Thankyou to you, DuX112, it was rather fun deconstructing your argument, all my years in Comparative Literature paid off! Though neither of us seemed to convince the other, lively debate is always good fun. As I said earlier I really am in no position to comment on Macedonia. It is plain to me that the price of media like games is artificially hiked in a country where people are prepared to pay that, for instance a small pepsi in the cinmea is £2.50 here! As a result, this price becomes uniform across the world and seems ridiculous in a country where other things of that nature are considerably cheaper. No doubt the developers will tell you its the production value you get out of something which took 30 people 3 years to make, but even I find this arguement unconvincing.

Who would've thought we would get from piracy to economic politics in one fell-swoop but thats how it goes I guess!

Hope to see you around,

Asgardmothership

 

[HotFezz8]

why not? fuck the big companys its not hurting them.

No, but it's hurting you. Pirates that pirate with that intention cause the game to have DRM protection, and then more people pirate that game because they are pissed off with the DRM. This is what starts the meltdown.

DRM protection? I'm not as clued in as you are... could you explain please?

 

[DuX1112]

----------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the conversation, asgardmothership. Even though we may not agree, I appreciate it. Sorry if I caused you any inconvenience, handling lengthy conversations is sometimes tiring. Especially when one has much translation to do (me). Oh, well...

EDIT: I apologize for the lengthy/messy post, but I'm kinda new with this and the quoting system needs some time to master.
EDIT: I don't think Steam and Direct2Drive work here. At least I have to have a VISA or a Mastercard, which I still don't have. Cards are a relatively new thing here. Bye.

And Thankyou to you, DuX112, it was rather fun deconstructing your argument, all my years in Comparative Literature paid off! Though neither of us seemed to convince the other, lively debate is always good fun. As I said earlier I really am in no position to comment on Macedonia. It is plain to me that the price of media like games is artificially hiked in a country where people are prepared to pay that, for instance a small pepsi in the cinmea is £2.50 here! As a result, this price becomes uniform across the world and seems ridiculous in a country where other things of that nature are considerably cheaper. No doubt the developers will tell you its the production value you get out of something which took 30 people 3 years to make, but even I find this arguement unconvincing.

Who would've thought we would get from piracy to economic politics in one fell-swoop but thats how it goes I guess!

Hope to see you around,

Asgardmothership

Oh, you studied literature too? I'm an English Language and Literature graduate, and we too had a bit of comparative literature stuff but we have special courses on it too. And I have many Comparative Literature students who are also my friends.

So welcome aboard!

By the way, economy-shmeconomy was never one of my strong points.

See you around!