Why do some people consider Alistair from Dragon Age Origins to be whiny or "emo"? (spoilers)

[Ickorus]

I think it's because he has a very British sense of humor, as in, dry sarcasm.

I find that a lot of Americans don't quite understand our humor and think we're being serious when we aren't.

 

[Something Amyss]

You can have legit complaints and still be whiny about it. See about half of the Mass Effect controversy. >.>

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Snip.

You're not sidetracking the conversation, you're developing it (I'm quite enjoying this discussion) but anyways, the way Alistair tells it, Duncan could have picked anyone he wanted. He didn't choose the most skilled, he chose the one who wanted it most.

I'm not sure about whether he had the ulterior motive for selecting Alistair, just my opinion but Duncan doesn't strike me as the type of leader who would attempt to manipulate political power. Since the Fereldan wardens were exiled for interfering in politics, I'd think he would stay away. In the Human Noble Origin, he says he is most interested in the player as a recruit, but leaves you alone as to not upset the third most powerful family in the country.

I think Alistair's recruitment into the Wardens may have been influenced by others. Maybe Cailan. Since Al has been a Warden for only six months, and was recruited quickly after meeting Duncan, it may be possible Alistair was put into the Wardens to eliminate any political power he might have. As a templar, he could gain respect, authority and the backing of the chantry if Cailan didn't seem to be living up to his duties. As a Grey Warden, his lifespan is shortened, he becomes part of a mistrusted organisation and he may die in the joining. Cailan apparently knew about Alistair and his claim to the throne but didn't act on it. Having Alistair as a warden would have solved his problems and reduced Alistairs political power to zero. Even though Duncan is respected, he cannot do anything to upset the upper classes.

Yes, but Cailan admired the Wardens immensely. He goes out of his way to insist that Alistair be taken out of harm's way by going with you to light the torch (if you offer to do it alone he insists on Alistair going with you, by name). I think it is more than Cailan didn't see his bastard half brother as any kind of threat to his power as king, but instead had a familial feeling towards him or at least sympathy for his position. I doubt very much that he would have influenced Duncan to recruit Alistair and make him a Warden - as far as I know a Templar would be just as ineligible to become King as a Warden would be, and shortening Alistair's life is clearly not something he would favor or he wouldn't take pains to put him in a place of safety during such a battle.

Duncan isn't a power-player politically, but he is concerned about maintaining relationships with the political powers that be on good terms because the presence of the Wardens in Ferelden to fight the Blight he has foreseen hinges upon that. The fact that he is willing to bend his desire to recruit the Human Noble aside to avoid a political misstep is evidence that he does keep those factors in mind. I doubt he would have used Alistair outright, like Eamon clearly considers, but having him involved in the effort against the Blight is a potentially good way to maintain a presence if push came to shove and an attempt to eject the Wardens was made. Duncan isn't a Warrior, after all, but a Rouge. Subtly when needed and cunning are the hallmarks of that class.

Also, Alistair doesn't have a claim to the throne at all while Cailan is alive. Cailan is both the first born and legitimate son of marriage. It isn't until Cailan dies that Alistair has anything to claim at all.

 

[JasonKaotic]

People didn't like Alistair? I don't like Dragon Age at all, but Alistair was one of the few characters in the game I liked. Saying he's whiny would be like saying Duke Nukem is timid.

 

[Eamar]

I liked Alistair a lot, and I agree with pretty much everything the OP says. I thought he was refreshingly different. Makes a nice change from the standard "my loved one/mentor/entire family was just murdered and I have to do all this unreasonable shit for some nebulous reason, my life is no longer my own and I have no say in what I do with myself from now on... but I'm totally fine with that" stuff you see elsewhere

Hell, when my Grey Warden was chatting to Wynne in camp I made her "whine" from time to time. Because given her circumstances (human noble backstory) I felt she was entitled to have doubts and get a bit pissed off every now and again.

 

[RedLister]

I didnt mind him. He was like a big kid with he's sense of humour. It was amusing.

I think it's because he has a very British sense of humor, as in, dry sarcasm.

That might explain it. The dry sarcasm.

 

[The Harkinator]

Snip.

You're not sidetracking the conversation, you're developing it (I'm quite enjoying this discussion) but anyways, the way Alistair tells it, Duncan could have picked anyone he wanted. He didn't choose the most skilled, he chose the one who wanted it most.

I'm not sure about whether he had the ulterior motive for selecting Alistair, just my opinion but Duncan doesn't strike me as the type of leader who would attempt to manipulate political power. Since the Fereldan wardens were exiled for interfering in politics, I'd think he would stay away. In the Human Noble Origin, he says he is most interested in the player as a recruit, but leaves you alone as to not upset the third most powerful family in the country.

I think Alistair's recruitment into the Wardens may have been influenced by others. Maybe Cailan. Since Al has been a Warden for only six months, and was recruited quickly after meeting Duncan, it may be possible Alistair was put into the Wardens to eliminate any political power he might have. As a templar, he could gain respect, authority and the backing of the chantry if Cailan didn't seem to be living up to his duties. As a Grey Warden, his lifespan is shortened, he becomes part of a mistrusted organisation and he may die in the joining. Cailan apparently knew about Alistair and his claim to the throne but didn't act on it. Having Alistair as a warden would have solved his problems and reduced Alistairs political power to zero. Even though Duncan is respected, he cannot do anything to upset the upper classes.

Yes, but Cailan admired the Wardens immensely. He goes out of his way to insist that Alistair be taken out of harm's way by going with you to light the torch (if you offer to do it alone he insists on Alistair going with you, by name). I think it is more than Cailan didn't see his bastard half brother as any kind of threat to his power as king, but instead had a familial feeling towards him or at least sympathy for his position. I doubt very much that he would have influenced Duncan to recruit Alistair and make him a Warden - as far as I know a Templar would be just as ineligible to become King as a Warden would be, and shortening Alistair's life is clearly not something he would favor or he wouldn't take pains to put him in a place of safety during such a battle.

Duncan isn't a power-player politically, but he is concerned about maintaining relationships with the political powers that be on good terms because the presence of the Wardens in Ferelden to fight the Blight he has foreseen hinges upon that. The fact that he is willing to bend his desire to recruit the Human Noble aside to avoid a political misstep is evidence that he does keep those factors in mind. I doubt he would have used Alistair outright, like Eamon clearly considers, but having him involved in the effort against the Blight is a potentially good way to maintain a presence if push came to shove and an attempt to eject the Wardens was made. Duncan isn't a Warrior, after all, but a Rouge. Subtly when needed and cunning are the hallmarks of that class.

Also, Alistair doesn't have a claim to the throne at all while Cailan is alive. Cailan is both the first born and legitimate son of marriage. It isn't until Cailan dies that Alistair has anything to claim at all.

Duncan was a rogue? I always associated him with being a warrior (that armour).

Your response has made me realise I've made Cailan out to be some sort of scheming manipulator. That he certainly is not. I think in some ways Cailan may be a bit envious of Alistair. Cailans love for the wardens is evident and I think he would quite like to be one himself. Failing that, he puts himself on the frontlines with the wardens so he can fight alongside them in the thick of battle.

Maybe it was his way of trying to take control for once. All his life he has been ruled by others (ironic, being a Prince then King) first by the expectations of others when his father was King. Then by Anora as she became the dominant ruler in their marriage. Finally, in war, he was ruled by Loghain who was the true planner of all his battles.

On the battlefield, Cailan could make his own legacy and truly be in control for once.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Snip.

You're not sidetracking the conversation, you're developing it (I'm quite enjoying this discussion) but anyways, the way Alistair tells it, Duncan could have picked anyone he wanted. He didn't choose the most skilled, he chose the one who wanted it most.

I'm not sure about whether he had the ulterior motive for selecting Alistair, just my opinion but Duncan doesn't strike me as the type of leader who would attempt to manipulate political power. Since the Fereldan wardens were exiled for interfering in politics, I'd think he would stay away. In the Human Noble Origin, he says he is most interested in the player as a recruit, but leaves you alone as to not upset the third most powerful family in the country.

I think Alistair's recruitment into the Wardens may have been influenced by others. Maybe Cailan. Since Al has been a Warden for only six months, and was recruited quickly after meeting Duncan, it may be possible Alistair was put into the Wardens to eliminate any political power he might have. As a templar, he could gain respect, authority and the backing of the chantry if Cailan didn't seem to be living up to his duties. As a Grey Warden, his lifespan is shortened, he becomes part of a mistrusted organisation and he may die in the joining. Cailan apparently knew about Alistair and his claim to the throne but didn't act on it. Having Alistair as a warden would have solved his problems and reduced Alistairs political power to zero. Even though Duncan is respected, he cannot do anything to upset the upper classes.

Yes, but Cailan admired the Wardens immensely. He goes out of his way to insist that Alistair be taken out of harm's way by going with you to light the torch (if you offer to do it alone he insists on Alistair going with you, by name). I think it is more than Cailan didn't see his bastard half brother as any kind of threat to his power as king, but instead had a familial feeling towards him or at least sympathy for his position. I doubt very much that he would have influenced Duncan to recruit Alistair and make him a Warden - as far as I know a Templar would be just as ineligible to become King as a Warden would be, and shortening Alistair's life is clearly not something he would favor or he wouldn't take pains to put him in a place of safety during such a battle.

Duncan isn't a power-player politically, but he is concerned about maintaining relationships with the political powers that be on good terms because the presence of the Wardens in Ferelden to fight the Blight he has foreseen hinges upon that. The fact that he is willing to bend his desire to recruit the Human Noble aside to avoid a political misstep is evidence that he does keep those factors in mind. I doubt he would have used Alistair outright, like Eamon clearly considers, but having him involved in the effort against the Blight is a potentially good way to maintain a presence if push came to shove and an attempt to eject the Wardens was made. Duncan isn't a Warrior, after all, but a Rouge. Subtly when needed and cunning are the hallmarks of that class.

Also, Alistair doesn't have a claim to the throne at all while Cailan is alive. Cailan is both the first born and legitimate son of marriage. It isn't until Cailan dies that Alistair has anything to claim at all.

Duncan was a rogue? I always associated him with being a warrior (that armour).

Your response has made me realise I've made Cailan out to be some sort of scheming manipulator. That he certainly is not. I think in some ways Cailan may be a bit envious of Alistair. Cailans love for the wardens is evident and I think he would quite like to be one himself. Failing that, he puts himself on the frontlines with the wardens so he can fight alongside them in the thick of battle.

Maybe it was his way of trying to take control for once. All his life he has been ruled by others (ironic, being a Prince then King) first by the expectations of others when his father was King. Then by Anora as she became the dominant ruler in their marriage. Finally, in war, he was ruled by Loghain who was the true planner of all his battles.

On the battlefield, Cailan could make his own legacy and truly be in control for once.

Yup Duncan is/was a Rouge according to his backstory and transmedia information, like the books (which I haven't read, btw, just know about from time on the DA forums). He also knew Maric and Logain personally from the days of the rebellion, which makes the betrayal particularly heinous and if Duncan had lived to see revenge I have no doubt I'd find his justification of wanting to behead the man far more persuasive than Alistair's. If anything, he may have taken Alistair in simply because he was his old friend's son and seemed to need a place to be in life. I don't think the benefits of having him around didn't occur to Duncan, but that might have been a secondary motive.

Spoiler: From Wiki

Barely more than a boy, Duncan was conscripted into the order by Commander Genevieve on the morning he was to be executed for murder. He had broken into a hotel room to rob it, and was confronted by his victim while attempting to steal a ring. The man refused to give in, even with a knife to his throat, and they fought; in the struggle, Duncan fatally wounded his victim unintentionally. As the man lay dying, he thanked the boy, to Duncan's shock and horror.
The chevaliers informed Duncan as he was arrested that the victim was a Grey Warden. When offered a place among the Grey Wardens the night before his execution, he refused: A Grey Warden's life must be horrible indeed to thank the one who murdered him. He was not entirely wrong at first; his fellow Wardens despised him, and in the months that followed, an unhappy Duncan attempted to run away several times, and continued to steal when the opportunity arose, a habit that saved his life in The Deep Roads later.

Wiki for Duncan

I think Cailan is envious of Alistair in many ways, including the freedom Alistair may seem to have had in comparison to him. Being naive seems to run in the family though between those two brothers, if not the father, who I don't know enough about to say (then again, he promoted a commoner to nobility on merit and didn't expect that to cause problems, so maybe it's the whole family tree).

 

[Crazy Zaul]

I hated him at first but ended up liking him. I tried to make him king but he kept saying no so I ended up talking them into the wedding.

I hated Sten and Aveline.

 

[Tjebbe]

Loved him. Alistair and Shale were my favourite characters.

 

[Jolly Co-operator]

Personally, I've always liked Alistair. He had a wider emotional range than most male characters I've encountered, and his moments of grief never seemed unjustified. I also liked him because he reminds me of myself in two key ways

1.) I don't like being in positions of authority

2.) I usually deflect personal questions with humor, with my humor, like his, being rather passive and snarky.

He was my favorite in DA:O. Broke my heart to see him as a drunk in DA2 :'(

 

[loc978]

I enjoyed Alistair's wit, but his personality really didn't fit with his profession. The guy had a really hard time manning up to just about anything, and he was a knight. He'd have to be something above and beyond an incredible natural talent to be worth a damn as one with that attitude.

 

[TheTim]

I thought he was a decent enough character, but as a squadmate i couldn't stand how painfully useless he was. He was always dead within 10 seconds.

 

[Killspre]

I'm sorry he was whiny,and though I did like his comedy bits his constant blaming himself for everything was annoying. He blames himself for Duncan's death even though there was nothing he could, he blames himself for his sisters hard life even though there was nothing he could do, he whines how he treated the Arl that raised him as a child, and he constantly is on the verge of tears if you even mention the name Grey Wardens in dialogue. Better question how is he not whiny. While yeah there is no true indicator of time in this game I'd have to guess this quest takes them longer than a day and after awhile this tearing up every mention of what happened gets old and he probably should've moved on eventually.

 

[The_Lost_King]

Preface: I <3 Alistair

... but he is a whiner.

Spoiler: especially here

This is cemented for me by his reaction to the very reasonable alternative to beheading the former hero-gone-stupid in front of the assembled nobility of Ferelden and y'know, maybe getting another warden in the process, which might come in handy given there's only 3 in the whole Blight stricken country and the odds of all of us dying to the Archdemon are astronomically high

Spoiler: and here

His reaction to the death of Isolde and/or Connor should you not have the happy-time option of going to the Circle for help if they have been cleansed already is pretty over the top as well, given the obvious impossibility of the situation. Granted, he apologies, but it's still pretty high drama

The mourning for Duncan in the first few segments of the game is understandable, but he doesn't seem to ever let it go - and lest we forget, he knew the guy for all of 6 months. He's much less upset about his 10+ year father figure in Eamon lying on his death bed than he is about a war-buddy who "rescued" him from... being a Templar, which is apparently a fate worse than death (?) No idea why he's got that juxtaposition of emotional priorities, maybe transference, but even that's a bit of a stretch to me.

Again - I love Alistair, big time. Most of my Wardens romanced him (except the non-human ones, after I go my heart smashed to pieces the first time with my Elf Mage... who he promised to love forever and ever...

Spoiler

and then dropped like a bad habit the minute the crown was hovering over his head, in front of all of our friends... because I was an Elf and a Mage, which he knew already. Ass

I guess I would say that Alistair isn't so much "whiny" as he is unreasonable in his expectations of the Warden, but doesn't really live up to those high standards of behavior he expects himself. He expects the Warden to be the best, most upstanding person possible, but when he hits a wall with a hard choice, he bails. He bails on responsibility when Duncan dies and the group needs a leader, he bails on the Warden romantically if the going gets tough, he bails on the whole group if one particular decision doesn't go his way. He isn't made of the same stuff he expects the Warden to be made of - maybe he wants to be, maybe that's what he aspires to, but it isn't what he is - yet.

Doesn't mean I don't think he's still a good guy, but there's definitely a downside to the character if you don't play in a way to have his best side always showing.

This. I always called him a man-child. He shirks responsibility and is prone to temper tantrums.

Spoiler

I've been a Grey Warden for a day and Alistair dumps the responsibility of leading us and gathering an army onto me because he doesn't like to lead. This doesn't mean that he won't second guess every decision I make. And the bit with Loghain is the final straw. My Warden had nothing against Loghain personally, and getting another Warden and sparing a national war hero seemed like a pretty good move. But little Alistair wanted his revenge. Oh, and he changed his mind, he wanted to be king now too. It is his fault that he is hanging from a noose. Though, if you spare him, he becomes a drunk who wallows in self-pity for the rest of his life. I guess I did him a favor. And he dumps you if you are an elf and mage? Wow, add that to the list. At least Morrigan had a reason other than "politically inconvenient".

As for you first point. He had protagonist vision and saw the cameraa floating above your head. How did you not hate Loghain. He could have helped the king destroy the darkspwn but instead he pussies out and lets the king die. What's there stopping him from doing that to you? Loghain is an ass and deserved to die.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Preface: I <3 Alistair

... but he is a whiner.

Spoiler: especially here

This is cemented for me by his reaction to the very reasonable alternative to beheading the former hero-gone-stupid in front of the assembled nobility of Ferelden and y'know, maybe getting another warden in the process, which might come in handy given there's only 3 in the whole Blight stricken country and the odds of all of us dying to the Archdemon are astronomically high

Spoiler: and here

His reaction to the death of Isolde and/or Connor should you not have the happy-time option of going to the Circle for help if they have been cleansed already is pretty over the top as well, given the obvious impossibility of the situation. Granted, he apologies, but it's still pretty high drama

The mourning for Duncan in the first few segments of the game is understandable, but he doesn't seem to ever let it go - and lest we forget, he knew the guy for all of 6 months. He's much less upset about his 10+ year father figure in Eamon lying on his death bed than he is about a war-buddy who "rescued" him from... being a Templar, which is apparently a fate worse than death (?) No idea why he's got that juxtaposition of emotional priorities, maybe transference, but even that's a bit of a stretch to me.

Again - I love Alistair, big time. Most of my Wardens romanced him (except the non-human ones, after I go my heart smashed to pieces the first time with my Elf Mage... who he promised to love forever and ever...

Spoiler

and then dropped like a bad habit the minute the crown was hovering over his head, in front of all of our friends... because I was an Elf and a Mage, which he knew already. Ass

I guess I would say that Alistair isn't so much "whiny" as he is unreasonable in his expectations of the Warden, but doesn't really live up to those high standards of behavior he expects himself. He expects the Warden to be the best, most upstanding person possible, but when he hits a wall with a hard choice, he bails. He bails on responsibility when Duncan dies and the group needs a leader, he bails on the Warden romantically if the going gets tough, he bails on the whole group if one particular decision doesn't go his way. He isn't made of the same stuff he expects the Warden to be made of - maybe he wants to be, maybe that's what he aspires to, but it isn't what he is - yet.

Doesn't mean I don't think he's still a good guy, but there's definitely a downside to the character if you don't play in a way to have his best side always showing.

This. I always called him a man-child. He shirks responsibility and is prone to temper tantrums.

Spoiler

I've been a Grey Warden for a day and Alistair dumps the responsibility of leading us and gathering an army onto me because he doesn't like to lead. This doesn't mean that he won't second guess every decision I make. And the bit with Loghain is the final straw. My Warden had nothing against Loghain personally, and getting another Warden and sparing a national war hero seemed like a pretty good move. But little Alistair wanted his revenge. Oh, and he changed his mind, he wanted to be king now too. It is his fault that he is hanging from a noose. Though, if you spare him, he becomes a drunk who wallows in self-pity for the rest of his life. I guess I did him a favor. And he dumps you if you are an elf and mage? Wow, add that to the list. At least Morrigan had a reason other than "politically inconvenient".

As for you first point. He had protagonist vision and saw the cameraa floating above your head. How did you not hate Loghain. He could have helped the king destroy the darkspwn but instead he pussies out and lets the king die. What's there stopping him from doing that to you? Loghain is an ass and deserved to die.

Loghain had no reason to actually attack with his forces. He made a judgement call. He thought that they were going to lose the battle. He warned the King not to go to the front lines. Was it a bit dirty? Yes. But his whole goal was winning the war. Not playing hero.

 

[Fuhrlock]

Preface: I <3 Alistair

... but he is a whiner.

Spoiler: especially here

This is cemented for me by his reaction to the very reasonable alternative to beheading the former hero-gone-stupid in front of the assembled nobility of Ferelden and y'know, maybe getting another warden in the process, which might come in handy given there's only 3 in the whole Blight stricken country and the odds of all of us dying to the Archdemon are astronomically high

Spoiler: and here

His reaction to the death of Isolde and/or Connor should you not have the happy-time option of going to the Circle for help if they have been cleansed already is pretty over the top as well, given the obvious impossibility of the situation. Granted, he apologies, but it's still pretty high drama

The mourning for Duncan in the first few segments of the game is understandable, but he doesn't seem to ever let it go - and lest we forget, he knew the guy for all of 6 months. He's much less upset about his 10+ year father figure in Eamon lying on his death bed than he is about a war-buddy who "rescued" him from... being a Templar, which is apparently a fate worse than death (?) No idea why he's got that juxtaposition of emotional priorities, maybe transference, but even that's a bit of a stretch to me.

Again - I love Alistair, big time. Most of my Wardens romanced him (except the non-human ones, after I go my heart smashed to pieces the first time with my Elf Mage... who he promised to love forever and ever...

Spoiler

and then dropped like a bad habit the minute the crown was hovering over his head, in front of all of our friends... because I was an Elf and a Mage, which he knew already. Ass

I guess I would say that Alistair isn't so much "whiny" as he is unreasonable in his expectations of the Warden, but doesn't really live up to those high standards of behavior he expects himself. He expects the Warden to be the best, most upstanding person possible, but when he hits a wall with a hard choice, he bails. He bails on responsibility when Duncan dies and the group needs a leader, he bails on the Warden romantically if the going gets tough, he bails on the whole group if one particular decision doesn't go his way. He isn't made of the same stuff he expects the Warden to be made of - maybe he wants to be, maybe that's what he aspires to, but it isn't what he is - yet.

Doesn't mean I don't think he's still a good guy, but there's definitely a downside to the character if you don't play in a way to have his best side always showing.

This. I always called him a man-child. He shirks responsibility and is prone to temper tantrums.

Spoiler

I've been a Grey Warden for a day and Alistair dumps the responsibility of leading us and gathering an army onto me because he doesn't like to lead. This doesn't mean that he won't second guess every decision I make. And the bit with Loghain is the final straw. My Warden had nothing against Loghain personally, and getting another Warden and sparing a national war hero seemed like a pretty good move. But little Alistair wanted his revenge. Oh, and he changed his mind, he wanted to be king now too. It is his fault that he is hanging from a noose. Though, if you spare him, he becomes a drunk who wallows in self-pity for the rest of his life. I guess I did him a favor. And he dumps you if you are an elf and mage? Wow, add that to the list. At least Morrigan had a reason other than "politically inconvenient".

As for you first point. He had protagonist vision and saw the cameraa floating above your head. How did you not hate Loghain. He could have helped the king destroy the darkspwn but instead he pussies out and lets the king die. What's there stopping him from doing that to you? Loghain is an ass and deserved to die.

Loghain had no reason to actually attack with his forces. He made a judgement call. He thought that they were going to lose the battle. He warned the King not to go to the front lines. Was it a bit dirty? Yes. But his whole goal was winning the war. Not playing hero.

And I suppose putting a price on your head and hiring professional assassins to hunt you down was a perfectly reasonable decision to?
Loghain's decisions had nothing to do with what was best for Fareldan. It was about not having to deal with those damn dirty foreigners who were once his slavers.

From his perspective it was perfectly reasonable, he didn't know wardens were necessary to defeat the blight and their versions of the events at Ostagar would make those who followed Cailan unlikely to fall in line under him. With the wardens out of the way he thought he could defeat the blight, since afterall he is a strategist and he was willing to do whatever it took to defend ferelden from the blight (offer the circle more autonomy, allow the actions of the tevinter slavers etc.)

As for his views on Orlais they would seem to be somewhat clouding his judgement, unless you play the return to ostagar dlc and see the letters between cailan and the empress. Considering politically Orlais wanted to assimilate ferelden it's not unimaginable that in a weakened state Orlais may have attempted to simply seize control if losses were too significant during the blight.