Why do some people think free healthcare is bad?

[blind_dead_mcjones]

because people are not only afraid of it, but they make no attempts to understand how it works
and are easily influenced by scaremongering

also, several flaws with the argument that it isn't free and that it comes out of your taxes, firstly, why are you getting hung up over semantics? second, your taxes pay for everything else do they not? also, if you're given subsidized health care it means you don't have to pay extra for private health care, freeing up your disposable income for other things, and finally sure it may not offer the best care, but some health care is better than no health care

fyi, from australia and i'm glad we have subsidized health care and dental, god knows my family wouldn'tve been able to afford the corrections that had to be done on my lower jaw and teeth if we didn't have it.

 

[James13v]

I recently read the saddest thread I've yet to see on here, I literally bawled my eyes out.
On the thread, I thought to myself, Free health care would save this poor persons life.
I may not be an expert on the industry but denying free health care I reckon, Is denying poor peoples lives.

There's 2 major problems with "free" healthcare:

1) Someone, somewhere, at some point in time, has to pay for it. It may not be the recipient of the care, their insurance or anyone even remotely related to the case, but eventually someone is going to be stuck with the bill. (And it really doesn't seem fair to put the bill on someone who was completely uninvolved, but that's a different argument).

2) It allows for a potentially frightening level of government control over the populace. Once the government controls the healthcare industry, it's really not much of a stretch to start dictating specific limits on who receives said care, and eliminating the undesirables. Is that likely to happen? I can't say, but the potential is there, and everyone should certainly be wary of it.

Because the next step in human behavioral evolution is the altruistic supporting and loving of those who are in need. Even if they will never contribute to society. Who knows? That might be you offering nothing to the whole if your future doesn't go the way you hope for. Depression, injury, any number of things could sabotage your perfect world. Should it be, effectively, a death sentence?

Short answer: Yes.

People should get what they earn, no more and definitely no less. I expect no sympathy, or, more relevantly, aid if, for whatever reason, I can't afford my own healthcare. What I would expect is to do everything I could to work for it, and if that's not enough, so be it.

I work very hard at what I do. I also have no trouble supporting free-loaders if it means their many kids (generalization I know) will have an opportunity to be better than their parents. That's why we must think in 50year social plans instead of 5 year business cycles. That's why we should never limit a person's potential via capital classification and stratification. The classification of status based on wealth will be the last socially acceptable form of discrimination left in the modern era. Once it is truly conquered, the sky is the limit for our species.

There's one problem with this: There will never, ever be an end to discrimination within our species. So long as people are different, some will convince themselves that those differences mean inherently different levels of worth. It is simply impossible to eradicate discrimination. It's a very noble goal, but it's also an impossible one. The best that can happen is that what is used to discriminate shifts frequently enough that no one group solidifies power (which is what has happened in most of the Western world).

I do pity you greatly if this is what you actually believe.

 

[Mcupobob]

No one is saying "Free health care" is bad, but social health care isn't "free". So in till they invent a hypodermic needle tree and medical tree. Not to mention the cure everything pill which is made of average dirt, in till then, health care is still going to cost money.

For right now, we have to decide if we all want to stick our money into the pot so we all get basic health care, or do we keep our own to choose to do with?

 

[AcacianLeaves]

You have to remember that that is the decision of politicians, not citizens. Most citizens aren't exactly thrilled with the public image of the US, and would prefer if there was a scaling back of the military if only to improve our standing with other countries. Politicians on the other hand see the military as this magic wand that stimulates the economy. No joke, if you downscaled the military industrial complex to levels comparable of other western nations, not only government expenditures would lower. It's a broken spiral, but it's a sad fact that spending money on the military pretty much equates to spending money on the economy, while spending money on schools doesn't.

The problem with the idea that military spending stimulates the economy is that it hasn't been true since after World War 2. WW2 military spending may have been what ultimately brought us out of the Great Depression, but with the way that our military is globalized its just not the case any more.

The largest arms producing company in the world is from the United Kingdom. A large part of the military equipment used in the United States comes from Germany, Italy, and Belgium. The vast majority of weapons that are actually made in the United States are exported for profit.

Yes, cutting military expenditures would end up causing people to lose jobs - but the whole idea would be to use the income recovered from the military to fund other jobs, such as government health care professionals.

 

[James13v]

I don't know why there is even a debate on the subject of whether universal healthcare works actually. Fact: Government run universal healthcare works, many nations have it. Done; There is no way to rebut that.

 

[Mcupobob]

3. The armed services, retired persons, and all members of the government have state funded health care. Seems to be doing a damn good job. The government also manages to provide roads, police, fire, water, electricity, gas, and other amenities just fine. But somehow health care is just too complicated for people to figure out.

I have to respond to this one. My best friend is a Marine, and according to him, the military doctors are total quacks. They tend to just throw advil at the problem until it goes away.

My Grandfather was in the Navy for 20 years and received permanent government health insurance. It has kept my grandmother alive as they pay for nearly everything. I see this as a option to the health care system, if you want government health care the earn it through civil service. The serving time(in till you received your health care) could significantly be reduce depending on your situation.

For handicaps and the disabled something else could be implemented.

 

[James13v]

3. The armed services, retired persons, and all members of the government have state funded health care. Seems to be doing a damn good job. The government also manages to provide roads, police, fire, water, electricity, gas, and other amenities just fine. But somehow health care is just too complicated for people to figure out.

I have to respond to this one. My best friend is a Marine, and according to him, the military doctors are total quacks. They tend to just throw advil at the problem until it goes away.

My Grandfather was in the Navy for 20 years and received permanent government health insurance. It has kept my grandmother alive as they pay for nearly everything. I see this as a option to the health care system, if you want government health care the earn it through civil service. The serving time(in till you received your health care) could significantly be reduce depending on your situation.

For handicaps and the disabled something else could be implemented.

What's the point? The US isn't exactly in dire need of civil servants to my knowledge.

 

[AcacianLeaves]

There's no such thing as a free lunch, but that doesn't mean we can't share.

 

[Waaghpowa]

Errr... How is paying for Health via taxes different from paying it direct to the insurance companies?

Because insurance is practically a scam. you pay premiums all your life and once ONE instance occurs in which you need to call upon your insurance, they penalize you or try to come up with an excuse why you can't collect. Car insurance for example, you could have a perfect driving record, get into a small collision which may not even have been your fault then pay over a thousand more a year over it.

Yes that was my point! I don't understand why a tax increase would be a problem when it means that you can stop paying insurance companies. And if State run healthcare is so bad, why are countries like Sweden, France and Canada rated so highly in living standards?

I'm agreeing with you. I've lived in Canada all my life and the thought of denying someone medical treatment because they lack the proper funds/coverage is cruel. yes, we pay more in taxes but the benefit is that I never have to worry about going bankrupt because of a necessary procedure. Recently both my grandparents died, less than 6 months from each other in hospital. The funeral costs alone came close to breaking us, if we still had to pay for their medical bills we'd be in some serious debt.

 

[Porygon-2000]

To me, there seems to be a common theme when it comes to american politics. Whenever anything is going through the motions of reform, there seems to be this massive outcry from the (usually) right wing, which essentially says CHANGE IS BAD!! True, there would be negatives to the new health care, but republicans seem to be making it out to being the act of jumping off the slippery slope to the USSA. Theres that, as well as dont ask dont tell, (for which I have yet to hear a structured, logical reason against overturning) but thats another point for another rant-y day.

Alas, none of this affects me immediately, as I dont live on the same continent as these guys. All I can do is sit at my computer, and whine. And whine and whine and whine...

 

[Porygon-2000]

There's no such thing as a free lunch, but that doesn't mean we can't share.

Wisdom, right here.

 

[dogenzakaminion]

4. People have no problem increasing taxes to invade Iraq, or put unnecessary scanners in airports, or other pointless shit.

5. We pay for it by not giving tax breaks to the wealthy or companies that outsource employment, or by not invading other countries, or not bailing out wall street executives, or paying congress so damn much.

You are officially my new favorite person. I wouldn't dream of calling you a liberal or Marxist, but I would call you a smart fellow.

Got to say, it's really fun to see people's different views on taxes. Real interesting stuff.

So, my two cent. First, I see why everyone is scared of paying more taxes, since "I might go my whole life paying taxes to a system I won't need." How is this different than paying taxes which go to the military (the US is a bad example) but you could potentially go your entire life without ever needing the defence your tax money went to,And wouldn't those people already be paying insurance companies money their whole life anyway...possible without using it? Seems like a little difference to me.

I think the most important problem is that while it's a great concept, there are too many other problems in the US keeping it from fulfilling its true potential. The US has over 300 million people, and the unemployment is a lot worse than other contries with a state funded healthcare system. You can't pay taxes without a job, and you can't pay the healthcare without taxes. It can work brilliantly as a system, but many other things need to be fixed first, like the american population actually trusting their own government. Of course this requires the government to stop being morons. I just can't understand this massive fear of taxes. Doesn't every citizen have a civil-debt to pay for being raised by their own system?

 

[Karathos]

Keep people constantly scared and they'll do whatever you want them to, no matter how bad for them.

Ah, I do so love living in Finland. No need to worry about any of this. As far as the healthcare issue goes, I pretty much agree with xdiesp above. I have a hard time holding back tears of laughter when I see some yank in a stars-and-stripes shirt protesting, going on about how the healthcare plan is SOCIALISM THAT'S DESTROYING THE LIBERTY AND FREEDOM AND APPLE PIE THAT MADE THIS COUNTRY GREAT.

Honestly you guys, come on. Yes it costs money, but so does the current system - and in case you haven't noticed, it blows certain farmyard animals when you're unlucky (which an anomalous amount of people seem to be).

 

[Sam17]

We live in a monetary society, and a monetary society is an awful society

Now if we lived in a RESOURCE based society...

 

[Gavmando]

Wow. Every time I read one of these threads, i'm always amazed be the responses from the anti universal health care people. (Who are usually Americans.)
I'll summarise it for you: "Fuck everyone else. No body else matters but me. I make a conscious choice to not help other people because I view my money as more important than another persons life."

It makes me scared that the most influential country in the world thinks like that in regards to it's own people.

Okay, I know that this is going to be a contentious issue with Americans, so listen up. There's a reason why I would never ever move the the US, and that is because you don't have free universal healthcare. I've lived in the UK all my life, which means I have had great free healthcare all my life, and I wouldn't change it for anything. Seriously, that puts the US below every other country in the western world (because WE ALL HAVE IT EXCEPT YOU). I wouldn't feel safe with my health in the hands of either some insurance company whose bottom line is about profit, not helping people, and who will do whatever they can to screw me out of the money, or doctors who're so mercenary they'll perform unneccesary tests (If your doctor gives you a CT scan and not an MRI scan, or both, HE'S A QUACK) just to drive your bill up and cash in.

I don't care about the taxes. I don't care about big government (Which, by the way, is kinda underrated). Because I pay £7 for any medication I need. I get to see a doctor in any hospital (no in-network crap here) and get seen, and then I can walk out and not have to sell my car in order to pay for it, or worry about insurance premiums. That is worth all the stuff you've been told are downsides.

I am agreeing with this so hard that i'm probably going to get a hernia.

...But that's ok because we also have universal healthcare in Australia.

 

[Turing]

Well, living in Denmark I can tell, we love our free healthcare. Of course, we also pay just about 50% taxes, but seeing as it means free healthcare and free college for everyone, among other fine things, most Danes are pretty okay with those taxes.
I don't get paid well, but I get paid enough to buy shit off the internet, take my girl out for dinner and a movie and generally spend money on stuff I don't need, despite the taxes, so from my own perspective I don't really see what the problem with taxes is.

 

[Blind Sight]

Because the next step in human behavioral evolution is the altruistic supporting and loving of those who are in need. Even if they will never contribute to society. Who knows? That might be you offering nothing to the whole if your future doesn't go the way you hope for. Depression, injury, any number of things could sabotage your perfect world. Should it be, effectively, a death sentence?

Short answer: Yes.

People should get what they earn, no more and definitely no less. I expect no sympathy, or, more relevantly, aid if, for whatever reason, I can't afford my own healthcare. What I would expect is to do everything I could to work for it, and if that's not enough, so be it.

Excellent point, a good example is the fact that I smoke. If I get lung cancer, should it be the responsibility of others to pay taxes so I can be treated for my own mistakes? Is it 'morally right' to have other people support me when I knew the risks? I say no, no it is not, I should pay for it myself if the problem arises, it's a problem I created for myself, and thus I should fix it.

You wouldn't happen to be a libertarian, would you? Cause you sure sound like one haha.

 

[Mordwyl]

I'm just as confused, it's not as if PRIVATE hospitals suddenly became free for alls. You want to pay for your healthcare? The option is still there buddy.