woem said:
In the heat of discussion it probably went by you that I'm a vegetarian myself and that my point of view is clearly pro-life. My line was referring to: I don't judge a meat-eater, and I ask them to not judge me. We're all friends!
Ah yes, my bad. Well of course, naturally, that makes sense. I certainly am not the type to go looking for people to convert to vegetarianism either. If the discussion comes up I fight the good fight in debate, and when it ends, I stop.
Samurai Goomba said:
I guess we're seeing the issue from two different perspectives. You see mankind as having advanced all this ways and made so much progress. You believe mankind shouldn't be beholden to old ways or traditions when there are alternatives that work as well (note that I do NOT say "better"). We shouldn't cause pain and suffering when we can avoid it, it's "beneath" us. Fair enough.
If I am presented with two options, and one is an ethically questionable tradition, and the other is less so, but both have about the same practical effectiveness, then I will choose the former. Yes, we come to this from differing perspectives.
I see mankind as being a few dozen EMP missiles away from the early 1800s. You know that movie "The Hunted?" I think that's sort of how I see the world. It's not that we've advanced beyond our predatory nature, it's that we've concealed it, forgotten it, swept it under the rug. Now reliant on WW2 leftovers and a broken Agricultural system, our way of life is so heavily indebted to factories and industrialized farms (vegetarian or not) that we've left behind the more primal predator/prey relationships that have been common between man and animal from the beginning of our existence right up until very recently. We've exchanged the way of the hunter for convenience, but I can't help but feel we've lost something valuable. Maybe a loss of reverence for the life we take? Could be why "sport" hunting is so popular.
This loss of reverence for the wild is something I can see in humanity as well. This is why, whenever I consume meat, as tradition I say a thank you to the animal. Merely a pleasantry, but it encourages some respect for such things.
I suppose our difference is that you see the potential future beyond EMP missiles, but I am more optimistic. I know the dangers that threats could destroy us and reduce us to the survival mechanisms of our ancient past. However, I see more of a stalemate on the world chessboard regarding missile warfare; the more countries have them, the more people are afraid to use them because of the high chance of response, if not from the target nation then from its allies. This is no certainty; there is a possibility one leader will go mad with power and send them off, but such possibilities are under extreme pressures and attention in order for them not to occur. Besides, even if what you see does occur, when the luxury of being morally correct presents itself in a present such as this, I simply cannot resist it.
To me, remembering the wild through honest hunting and small time ecological harm is one thing; destroying animals as part of an agricultural system that spews them out and chews them in again, that's quite another. If no war destroys the world then we must think of the long-term ramifications of mass agriculture, be they environmental, ecological, anthropological or medical. And from what I see in science magazines so far, agriculture does a lot more damage to those things than the old hunter-gatherer systems ever did.
Point is, I still think of animals as food. If I were in charge, yeah, I'd find a way to kill animals more humanely, but I'd definitely still have them killed for food.
Ultimately, so would I. But not because I wanted to. People would not and should not be forced into changing to the point where such an industry dies out. It must be a choice or the ethical improvement is mostly lost. I would probably cut down on the more harmful and less ethical practices in that industry if I had the time, though. Most leaders would probably have bigger fish to fry in this day and age.
As for the "fat generation," it has more to do with High Fructose Corn Syrup and meat fed on poor feed laced with growth hormone than any innate problem with meat. Wild meat is much leaner and good for you than the industry-grown stuff.
True, but if we're going to look at red meat, for the best accuracy, we must view whichever product is most consumed. In this case, it is the high fructose stuff. Expecting people to choose the more expensive free range, rather than producing a more extreme solution with likely more visible results of weight loss, is not good marketing strategy.
Regarding the whole "missing with a bullet," well, yeah. Obviously it's bad if you miss. It's also bad if your knife slips, or your arrow doesn't kill and the animal runs itself to death. My point is that you can fire bullets a lot faster and more accurately than arrows (most people can, anyway). There's less suffering for the animal because they die faster. Even a killing blow with an arrow often doesn't kill right away, and the animal runs off and gets to bleed to death.
Sure, bullets are more efficient than the old weapons for killing quickly and mercifully, in the direct sense. Of course, we haven't analysed the amount of ecological and social damage the production of such weapons does. Considering such indirect ramifications would make things a little less discernably acceptable, I'd wager, though I cannot pretend to know everything about the topic.
