Why do you think so few people enjoy fighting games?

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

It would be meaningless anyway. It would be a game against someone you didn't know and would probably never see again. Who wouldn't be anything special if he was in the low ranked "handicap league".

But it would be fun. It would be less disheartening for noobs, which would result in more of them playing, which would reduce the need for handicap, as there would be more terrible players to draw against.

And if you really care about a meaningful victory, you could just turn it off whenever it favoured you. You need never suffer a hollow victory if it bothers you.

That's an issue I take with online game mentality, if every game you play online is meaningless then there's all the less reason for people to behave like human beings and for them to improve on their skill. No, every game which is fair should be treated as important. If you just wanna mess around you don't need human foes to do so but if you go online you should go with your honor on the line and play as you would a real life foe who will laugh at you and talk shit if you do stupid stuff.


Noobs still have venues of getting better in less disheartening ways. They can go online and seek help or tutors to show them how things work. Back in my day there was no online populace to train you and in my country (Greece) there was no arcade scene so you had to work by yourself and hope you stumble into something. Noobs have it easy nowadays and don't you forget it.


Here's the main problem with handicaps though, if the other guy uses it, I can reasonably claim that even if I do lose it still only was due to the handicap. This, in turn, removes all the negative elements from losses and if losing isn't bad then winning also isn't that special any more since it's the unavoidable consequence of facing someone who already KNOWS you would win in a fair fight and picks a handicap. It would be like "meh, we both know I'd win, why bother playing this dude any more". That sort of mentality is seriously detrimental to the way fighters are supposed to be played.

No, no, no, that's not how it works. Executing moves and combos consistently is just the first step towards being an epic strong player. Then there is learning the appropriate times to execute your combos/specials/misc moves. Then you work on mind games. The second and third steps are fun and interesting. The first, unfortunately, is not fun and usually far too hard and long.

Being able to execute tricky combos is not the point of the game. It's just frequently mistaken for the point of the game because you have to spend so long learning it before you can play the real game.

You said "tricky combo", not BnB. Yeah, sure, that's all true but you forget that people who get hype over games like in my description seldom do so from amazing reads or really high level mindtricks. They get hype from highly flashy stuff like that full super parry Daigo did in third strike. It's more about execution as far as the spectacle goes. The mindgames and yomi are indeed the most fun parts for the player but for the spectator noobs the part that makes them want to be good is the high level execution and that one combo that only this one guy is good enough to consistently pull off under pressure. Granted, in games like Blazblue or Guilty Gear you have more of these combos than in games like SF, so it also kinda depends on which game is on.

You don't need to cover every possible combo. You could just use the really powerful ones that make a big difference like infinite juggle combos, kara throws etc. And you could assign them to any kind of input sequence eg quarter circle forward + left trigger = fireball + FADC.

They wouldn't make your execution as good a pro, but they would make it much better.

Blazblue sorta had this kind of thing, they allowed you to just randomly mash one button and get the same combo over and over regardless to your timing. You know what's the thing...when it's like that you're always too predictible, you can't actually pick the moves you want to use to punish something and most importantly you never improve at all.

Seriously, people who used that method of play (beginner mode it's called) could indeed play better than they would, back when it was their first day, but beyond getting accustomed to blocking stuff a bit better and learning when to do which of the 5~ pre-programmed combos they didn't EVER develop any of the characteristics you list above such as mindgames or mixups or the ability to read their foes. The reason for that is the simple fact that they got high rewards in the combo automation for 0 work therefore the amount of work they'd have to put in the game to get the much slighter rewards of knowing when to bait a DP and when to just mash, for example, never seemed all that appealing to them. It basically cultivated this negative attitude that while at first was helpful towards their having fun eventually led them to being bored at the game and finding little reason to seek improvement, which is one of the worst things a core feature of a fighting game could ever do.

 

[ultrachicken]

I find that they rarely have enough content to justify the $60 admission fee, and I find that I'm terrible at them. Even if I pick a character and feel like I master them, I can still be beaten by anyone who can mash random buttons successfully.

 

[krazykidd]

Reasons I'm hearing:

1) You will be destroyed online
2) There's been no evolution in a long while
3) The gameplay is repetitive
4) There's no story

Mhh.. for a moment I thought everyone was talking about FPS'

I think It's cultural. I understand they're still pretty big in Japan/Korea. On this side of the world, people prefer their Noob-Unfriendly, stagnant-genred, non-storied, repetitive games to have guns.

Thing is in japan/korea , you can actually make a career out of being good at fighting games . Some people live of prize money of tournaments . Hell some people get sponsorships and get paid to be the top in fighting games . If there was something similar in North america , i'd dedicate myself to being the top canadian player in a heartbeat.

 

[TD_Knight]

I imagine because they're just hard to get into and play well.

Moreover, if you really want to do well you'd probably have to swot up on game mechanics, frame data, mix ups, combos and the like on sites like shoryuken or dustloop.

And then, of course, you have to find other people to play with on a regular basis, as online play and lag have a big impact in a fighting game.

I guess most people would just choose to play something that's easier to pick up.

 

[krazykidd]

I find that they rarely have enough content to justify the $60 admission fee, and I find that I'm terrible at them. Even if I pick a character and feel like I master them, I can still be beaten by anyone who can mash random buttons successfully.

Now you aren't the first person that said this but i really do wonder , what game are you guys playing that allows you to lose against mashers? I mean aure it might happen as a fluke but i can't see it happening all that often . ( unless you play brawl )

 

[ultrachicken]

I find that they rarely have enough content to justify the $60 admission fee, and I find that I'm terrible at them. Even if I pick a character and feel like I master them, I can still be beaten by anyone who can mash random buttons successfully.

Now you aren't the first person that said this but i really do wonder , what game are you guys playing that allows you to lose against mashers? I mean aure it might happen as a fluke but i can't see it happening all that often . ( unless you play brawl )

The only fighting games I've played all that extensively are of the Super Smash Bros. variety, though I've also tried other games at social events. So maybe I'm not experienced enough. Though, you could always return to my previous statement which says that I suck at fighting games if you want a quicker answer.

 

[Et3rnalLegend64]

I'm sad from all the people complaining about "lack of depth" and the games being "button mashing twitch fests." I knew it takes a certain kind of person to get the genre, but seeing so many people say such a thing just hurts. I'm especially wounded by the person who said that we believe "mash attack to win is a strategy."

We're effectively being lumped with Call of Duty. Not to pick on CoD too hard, but the multiplayer is rather simplistic and haphazard outside of dedicated team play. You rarely find real team cooperation in random matches online. Any help you get is a side effect of your teammate happening to be in the same area as you.

I know no one who's not already an enthusiast will listen, but every match is a chance to improve. It's just you and the other player, no distractions or excuses. Your style and knowledge of the game against his. Just because you've seen the character he uses doesn't mean you know how to deal with him. Your ability to react under pressure and adjust your strategies to each others' as the match goes on determines who wins. If the game was a simple "twitch fest" then any random person can win by mashing uppercut every time the opponent jumps. The genre has as much depth as you're willing to look for, which is why we who play find so much enjoyment in it.

To the OP's question. The first part is because the learning curve is wicked steep. The next part, judging by the content of this thread, seems to be the misguided notion that the person who remembers the most combos is automatically the winner. That notion seems to have led into the idea the genre lacks depth and is repetitive.

 

[Joccaren]

Because either you spend a lot of time with them to get to the main interesting part of them - PvP - and be able to hold your own against at least a couple of people - or you just have an amazing amount of luck and can spam until you win (Several 'avid' fighting game players were in my local games store one day trying to beat the final boss in the newest game, I forget which one. They talked about which characters to use for their abilities and combos, laid out plans for the fight, and failed every time. My friend walked up, having never played a fighting game before, picked some guy who looked cool, and spammed the attack and jump buttons whilst running around like a maniac. He beat the boss on his first try, first character. Pure and total luck)

That and there really isn't that much to them beyond the actual fights. It just always seems my time would be better spent playing games with fights, and adventure, and quests, and a lot more stuff too.

I know no one who's not already an enthusiast will listen, but every match is a chance to improve. It's just you and the other player, no distractions or excuses. Your style and knowledge of the game against his. Just because you've seen the character he uses doesn't mean you know how to deal with him. Your ability to react under pressure and adjust your strategies to each others' as the match goes on determines who wins. If the game was a simple "twitch fest" then any random person can win by mashing uppercut every time the opponent jumps. The genre has as much depth as you're willing to look for, which is why we who play find so much enjoyment in it.

Its not so much that as that some people have incredible luck with button mashing. Take my above example. Its also how I manage to beat those of my friends who play fighting games often when I vs them. Yes, there is strategy to the play, but like in CoD it is also possible to win just by mashing random stuff and hoping all goes well - you just have to be lucky.

 

[SpaceBat]

Last time I played a fighting game, which admittedly was a few years ago when the PS2 was still relevant, I beat someone who'd been playing that game for two years by simply mashing A.


Maybe they've changed since then, but I don't have any interest in finding out either, mainly because even without that I can't think of a game type I hate more. Always falls back onto people taking the game too seriously, which is a huge, rampant problem with fighting games several magnitudes beyond the worst of Call of Duty and Counter Strike.

I am curious to what game that was. Anyway, yes they've changed. You can still lose to a masher, but only if you turn off your brain, put down the controller and just watch the beating. Unless there is an incredible amount of lag present, you will not beat someone who has been playing the game for a month, let alone two years.

Your hatred for the genre is completely understandable. The reason I reacted to your previous post was because I disagreed with your mashing statement

The "taking it seriously" crowd slowly disappears the more you go into high-level play as well. It becomes less of a "FUCK I HAVE TO WIN THIS MY LIFE DEPENDS ON IT NOOB YOU SUX" and more into a professional friendly sparring (not always, mind you. Just more often).

 

[Et3rnalLegend64]

Because either you spend a lot of time with them to get to the main interesting part of them - PvP - and be able to hold your own against at least a couple of people - or you just have an amazing amount of luck and can spam until you win (Several 'avid' fighting game players were in my local games store one day trying to beat the final boss in the newest game, I forget which one. They talked about which characters to use for their abilities and combos, laid out plans for the fight, and failed every time. My friend walked up, having never played a fighting game before, picked some guy who looked cool, and spammed the attack and jump buttons whilst running around like a maniac. He beat the boss on his first try, first character. Pure and total luck)

That and there really isn't that much to them beyond the actual fights. It just always seems my time would be better spent playing games with fights, and adventure, and quests, and a lot more stuff too.

I know no one who's not already an enthusiast will listen, but every match is a chance to improve. It's just you and the other player, no distractions or excuses. Your style and knowledge of the game against his. Just because you've seen the character he uses doesn't mean you know how to deal with him. Your ability to react under pressure and adjust your strategies to each others' as the match goes on determines who wins. If the game was a simple "twitch fest" then any random person can win by mashing uppercut every time the opponent jumps. The genre has as much depth as you're willing to look for, which is why we who play find so much enjoyment in it.

Its not so much that as that some people have incredible luck with button mashing. Take my above example. Its also how I manage to beat those of my friends who play fighting games often when I vs them. Yes, there is strategy to the play, but like in CoD it is also possible to win just by mashing random stuff and hoping all goes well - you just have to be lucky.

Maybe I'm playing the wrong game (BlazBlue), but I haven't seen many mashers in my almost 3000 games online. I easily beat the one I did meet (Jin, probably the closest analogue to SF Ken). He had no idea what he was doing so he just mashed C, which comes out to some sword flurry move. I'd hit him when he eventually had to stop for a second or I just shot him. Later he tried that Ice Car move that everyone hates so much. When I eventually figured when he'd use it, I'd shoot him out of it. I haven't played SF4 since Vanilla, so I can't say much about that. I was never very good at it anyway. BlazBlue's pace and gameplay style fit me so much better.

 

[gonzo20]

well i used to play SF4 competitively with sagat, i wasnt amazing or anything but i could hold my own against a few players, mostly the ken flowcharts and wake up shoryus people tried doing kind of entertained me but then you got those guys who just seemed to do the sherlock holmes thing of predicting your EVERY move and smashing you within 10 seconds flat while your still wondering what the hell just happened and i kind of gave up from there. Mostly its because i was lazy and not bothered about learning all the combos or spacing my self etc but ive always gone up against total newcomers or the guys who dedicate all their time to practicing but im more of an FPS fan anyways

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Because either you spend a lot of time with them to get to the main interesting part of them - PvP - and be able to hold your own against at least a couple of people - or you just have an amazing amount of luck and can spam until you win (Several 'avid' fighting game players were in my local games store one day trying to beat the final boss in the newest game, I forget which one. They talked about which characters to use for their abilities and combos, laid out plans for the fight, and failed every time. My friend walked up, having never played a fighting game before, picked some guy who looked cool, and spammed the attack and jump buttons whilst running around like a maniac. He beat the boss on his first try, first character. Pure and total luck)

That and there really isn't that much to them beyond the actual fights. It just always seems my time would be better spent playing games with fights, and adventure, and quests, and a lot more stuff too.

I know no one who's not already an enthusiast will listen, but every match is a chance to improve. It's just you and the other player, no distractions or excuses. Your style and knowledge of the game against his. Just because you've seen the character he uses doesn't mean you know how to deal with him. Your ability to react under pressure and adjust your strategies to each others' as the match goes on determines who wins. If the game was a simple "twitch fest" then any random person can win by mashing uppercut every time the opponent jumps. The genre has as much depth as you're willing to look for, which is why we who play find so much enjoyment in it.

Its not so much that as that some people have incredible luck with button mashing. Take my above example. Its also how I manage to beat those of my friends who play fighting games often when I vs them. Yes, there is strategy to the play, but like in CoD it is also possible to win just by mashing random stuff and hoping all goes well - you just have to be lucky.

Thing is, there is no "luck" when you're facing an actually good opponent. No masher ever wins. If he does, either the game is broken and not worth talking about (and no current fighters are except for MvC3 with it's x-factor) or his foe wasn't good at all.


It doesn't matter if you've been playing the game for 2 years, you can still suck compared to good players.


AI foes like final bosses are also meaningless. The AI you see plays in a way that is not like how humans play. It reads your button presses and reacts so by playing in a certain stupid way you can have it react wrongly to something repeatedly and keep punishing it without actually knowing how to play at all. Just because you may beat the AI it doesn't mean you're good at the game when facing actual people and these games are made for people playing them, the AI is just an extensive training mode in the aspects of blocking and comboing under pressure.

well i used to play SF4 competitively with sagat, i wasnt amazing or anything but i could hold my own against a few players, mostly the ken flowcharts and wake up shoryus people tried doing kind of entertained me but then you got those guys who just seemed to do the sherlock holmes thing of predicting your EVERY move and smashing you within 10 seconds flat while your still wondering what the hell just happened and i kind of gave up from there. Mostly its because i was lazy and not bothered about learning all the combos or spacing my self etc but ive always gone up against total newcomers or the guys who dedicate all their time to practicing but im more of an FPS fan anyways

If you're being read like that it means you're just predictable. Sagat being as broken as he was in vanilla meant that a lot of people used him so that caused people to be used to the way he plays and expect your flowchart Sagat playstyle and to have devised a strategy against that. Vanilla was the only SF4 I played since after that I got really into BB but in that game I used Gouken and he was very good at dealing with Sagat since his palm dealt with the tiger shot spam and his counters were great against these annoyingly strong normals.

 

[TheDooD]

I'd say it's down to learning curve. With this in mind I suggest a few ways to combat this.

- The default mode of online play shall be with a handicap applied. This handicap will not just reduce damage, but also reduce speed and hitstun so combos will be harder to do. It shall be up to the weak player to disable handicap, not for the strong player to enable it. At least for low ranking players.
That way, noobs will at least be able to win some of their early matches and have fun.

- Macros shall be tournament legal. Further, there should be a macro system built into the game so that everybody can do it, not just people who buy special controllers. This will make special moves and tricky combos equally available to all players. It will also make fighting game skills more transferable, as you will be able to map moves the same way for other games.

The handicap you want isn't fair at all to experienced players. It basically punishes them for putting in work to get better just so a weaker player can have a false sense of achievement. Also handicaps and comeback mechanics can be abused to hell and they really don't help the new player in the long run. An example is Simple mode in the versus games yeah moves come out easier yet you really have no control over them. Which in turn can make a weak player much more weaker because they'll expect something to come out on a motion it really shouldn't.

Macros are a BAD idea period because if you allow unskilled players to have and use them in tournaments you have to allow them for the experienced players as well. Trust me on this the gap between the weaker and stronger player would just increase. It's much better to have players at a even standing, then have any abusable gimmicks.

Also Fightpads which are overall modernized Sega 6 button pads from back in the day and Arcade Sticks are a legit investment. I say start out on a fightpad before going all out on an arcade stick if you're a beginner or want to level up your game. Next special moves as of today are quite simpler then they use to be. Also you can't macro, the timing and skill when putting off tricky combos unless you're playing Wesker.

 

[Raideh]

Cleaned.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

They're impossible to get into.
You either have to devote your life to the things or you get so completely outclassed by the people who do that you can't really enjoy yourself (playing and losing can still be fun, but when the skill-gap is so big that you don't even have a chance it's just boring).

Most serious fighting game fans are either unwilling or unable to teach new players, and the average skill level online has gotten so high that there isn't really any good learning environment available. Because skills often transfer from game to game, it's pretty hard to just pick up the new Street Fighter and go online because you'll be up against all the crazy-good people who have been playing since Street Fighter II hit the arcades and don't want anything to do with you. It takes so much work to be able to even begin having fun that it's just not worth the time investment.

I occasionally pick up a fighting game that catches my interest and spend a decent amount of time on it, but the experience has always been pretty negative except when I'm playing with a similarly inexperienced friend in the same room.

I know no one who's not already an enthusiast will listen, but every match is a chance to improve. It's just you and the other player, no distractions or excuses. Your style and knowledge of the game against his. Just because you've seen the character he uses doesn't mean you know how to deal with him. Your ability to react under pressure and adjust your strategies to each others' as the match goes on determines who wins. If the game was a simple "twitch fest" then any random person can win by mashing uppercut every time the opponent jumps. The genre has as much depth as you're willing to look for, which is why we who play find so much enjoyment in it.

Based on my experience, I think this is only the case if you already have an understanding of the system and the muscle memory to actually pull off combos (I don't mean just the really big ones, a lot of people just starting out can't do them at all) and there really isn't a good environment to learn those things. Listening to fighting game fans describe what they're doing in a match is like listening to a different language, even to someone who's invested more than forty hours into a given game. On top of that, the fighting game community is usually pretty unfriendly to knew players, and even in the rare event that someone tries to explain things to you they just come off as unintelligible and intimidating.

A lot of people say you just need to put some effort into it, but the amount of effort involved seems to be roughly equivalent to learning a new sport and I could learn a fourth language in less time than most serious players recommend people spend practicing just to get good enough to go online.

 

[Gitty101]

If you wish to do well in a fighting game it'll require time and effort to become competent enough to do well against other players. Most people get frustrated before this point.

That said, I was under the impression that fighting games were slowly rising in popularity again?

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

They're impossible to get into.
You either have to devote your life to the things or you get so completely outclassed by the people who do that you can't really enjoy yourself (playing and losing can still be fun, but when the skill-gap is so big that you don't even have a chance it's just boring).

Most serious fighting game fans are either unwilling or unable to teach new players, and the average skill level online has gotten so high that there isn't really any good learning environment available. Because skills often transfer from game to game, it's pretty hard to just pick up the new Street Fighter and go online because you'll be up against all the crazy-good people who have been playing since Street Fighter II hit the arcades and don't want anything to do with you. It takes so much work to be able to even begin having fun that it's just not worth the time investment.

I occasionally pick up a fighting game that catches my interest and spend a decent amount of time on it, but the experience has always been pretty negative except when I'm playing with a similarly inexperienced friend in the same room.

I know no one who's not already an enthusiast will listen, but every match is a chance to improve. It's just you and the other player, no distractions or excuses. Your style and knowledge of the game against his. Just because you've seen the character he uses doesn't mean you know how to deal with him. Your ability to react under pressure and adjust your strategies to each others' as the match goes on determines who wins. If the game was a simple "twitch fest" then any random person can win by mashing uppercut every time the opponent jumps. The genre has as much depth as you're willing to look for, which is why we who play find so much enjoyment in it.

Based on my experience, I think this is only the case if you already have an understanding of the system and the muscle memory to actually pull off combos (I don't mean just the really big ones, a lot of people just starting out can't do them at all) and there really isn't a good environment to learn those things. Listening to fighting game fans describe what they're doing in a match is like listening to a different language, even to someone who's invested more than forty hours into a given game. On top of that, the fighting game community is usually pretty unfriendly to knew players, and even in the rare event that someone tries to explain things to you they just come off as unintelligible and intimidating.

A lot of people say you just need to put some effort into it, but the amount of effort involved seems to be roughly equivalent to learning a new sport and I could learn a fourth language in less time than most serious players recommend people spend practicing just to get good enough to go online.

The community is great actually, the problem is that you seem to be too entitled in your approach of it. You seem to devalue the time people have put into the game when you waltz in and expect to kick ass like it's your birthright. That's usually what people who haven't had fun experience with the fighter community usually act like.

In my experience people who are humble in their manner and know the reality of the game often do get positive treatment and are taught how to play.


As for explaining certain things, it's not as much the people who explain them badly as it is the games being really deep and complex. It's funny how people complain it's always the same dull thing but once they get exposed to all the various things you could do in the game they recoil with disdain. Which is it, are fighters too complex for you or not?

 

[Axyun]

I don't like the way they implement their difficulty. I don't mind putting in time and effort to get good at a game I enjoy but asking me to press a button at exactly one frame of an animation so that I can pull of a combo is a bit on the ridiculous side (looking at you SF4). I also don't like that the mechanics that separate a good from a great player are not explained anywhere in the game or manual.

I feel fighting games have the potential to be great strategy games but their notion of difficulty restricts them to a smaller audience. If fighting games are happy there, then more power to them. I'll keep buying the types of games I enjoy.

 

[Axyun]

Reasons I'm hearing:

1) You will be destroyed online
2) There's been no evolution in a long while
3) The gameplay is repetitive
4) There's no story

Mhh.. for a moment I thought everyone was talking about FPS'

I think It's cultural. I understand they're still pretty big in Japan/Korea. On this side of the world, people prefer their Noob-Unfriendly, stagnant-genred, non-storied, repetitive games to have guns.

You are largely correct. However, there is one key difference. With an FPS, you can go from getting destroyed to contributing to your team and/or being competitive enough to have fun in probably under a day. This is definitely not the case for fighting games.

I'm an RPG kind of guy but I flirt with FPSes on occassion. I buy the CoD/MW type of games when they are on sale for cheap, usually with a community that already has several months to a year+ of experience. And even when I buy them, I don't play them for long. When I first begin to play, I'm lost, I don't know what the objectives are or how to get to them, I don't know what weapon counters what and I'm getting turned into swiss cheese every 5 seconds. Play the same map 3-4 times and I can already start to contribute to my team. After a few more rounds, I start to get confident and start to actively push. By the end of they day, I'm holding my own, occassionally getting a killing streak. I'm still not as good as those that have been there since the beginning, but I'm competitive and I'm having fun.

 

[anonymity88]

I bought SFIV, clicked play on Xbox Live

I picked Ryu, my opponent picked Sagat.

Round 1

TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! *Manage to hop over them close enough to actually land a move* TIGER UPPER-CUT! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER! TIGER!

KO

Rinse and repeat.

Traded the game a week later. The games are too cheap and I don't find pleasure in learning complex button combinations and stratergies to counter dicks who just spam quarter cirlce and A at me to actually get good enough to find the fun in a game like SF. Which is a shame because I loved SFII growing up.