Why does America fear/distrust it's government?

[unoleian]

Lastly, free speech. I've often said that free speech is overrated, and often the world views America's views as very one-sided and jaded at times. Take the Westboro baptist church, KKK, Brooklyn street gangs, LA street gangs, Neo-nazi's, church of scientology-- All born from the 'gift of free speech.' I think you'll all agree that America has constitutionally shot themselves in the foot. Which they can't help now of course, it's forever embedded into the American constitution. But if I had to chose, I'd of set down some regulations on the whole free speech things. To maximize the amount of free speech for just reasons, and minimize the amount of hate and stupidity.

I appreciate and respect your ability to speak your mind, but get out of my country, Fascist. (Assuming, of course, you're in my country. Ahem.)
Sure, regulating what people can and cannot say seems like a great idea when it's things we don't agree with, but what happens when something close and important to you comes under scrutiny? What would you say, then?

Information and ideas should always be open for free exchange, no matter what we personally think of them, or even if they actually are of dubious morality. It's better that free and open discourse of ideas be able to be discussed and promoted publicly, no matter what they are-- keep it as the enemy you know. Ban the exchange of certain beliefs and ideas, and you only push it further underground, where it's potentially under even less scrutiny.

Our ability to have free and open discourse is one of the few true hallmarks we have left. Take that away, and we're only a few steps away from the likes of North Korea, Syria, Lybia, Saudi Arabia, and others who seek to control their populaces thoughts and beliefs. And that....should scare the shit out of anyone.

ed-- We already teeter on the brink of collapsing into a fundamentalist ideology if the Religious Right movement gains much more steam. Regulating thoughts and ideas is just one more way to push us closer to that edge.

 

[Tentickles]

Lastly, free speech. I've often said that free speech is overrated, and often the world views America's views as very one-sided and jaded at times. Take the Westboro baptist church, KKK, Brooklyn street gangs, LA street gangs, Neo-nazi's, church of scientology-- All born from the 'gift of free speech.' I think you'll all agree that America has constitutionally shot themselves in the foot. Which they can't help now of course, it's forever embedded into the American constitution. But if I had to chose, I'd of set down some regulations on the whole free speech things. To maximize the amount of free speech for just reasons, and minimize the amount of hate and stupidity.

(o.o)
I love how you picked the worst of the worst there.... You do know that the Westboro Baptist Church is the most hated family in America right?

If you set down rules for free speech... it wouldnt be free speech.

As much as I personally HATE Westboro... I would never try to take away their right to spew crap. The fact they are the most hated family in America shows how much everyone dislikes how they view things. Hell... the KKK hates them. Why? Even though the KKK are racists, they support our troops and their philosophy (though deeply flawed) was started as an American rights group. (white american rights but still personal rights)

Free Speech is there so that our government cant tell us what to believe. I can sit here and tell you I do not trust my government because of free speech.

 

[Tentickles]

American politicians are inherently corrupt.

Politicians aren't grown in vats. They aren't raised in secret underground labs.

If American politicians are inherently corrupt, it's because American citizens are.

The Government isn't some kind of scary machine that eats souls. It's run by people. If there is a problem with the Government, it's because there is a problem with the society surrounding it.

That should be a lot more broad

All politicians are inherently corrupt.

To trust a politician is to relinquish your rights to a corporations greed.

You're going to have to explain that belief. What makes a politician different from anyone else? Does getting elected by the people suddenly turn you into some kind of child-snatching, soul-devouring monster?

Lobbyists. They are the end all and be all of evil in America. They LITERALLY represent all the corporations and groups that want a say in what's going on in USA government.

Why are they so bad, you ask?
Because they donate huge amount of money to political campaigns so the politicians who agree with their views get into office.

So almost all our politicians are whores. Corporate WHORES who depend on donated money to decide their opinions.

(also notice how they are not really talked about)

 

[spartan231490]

Plus, you know, you guys complain about tax when it's a fraction of what most of us pay, but still expect public services - it's the eternal "I want, but don't want to pay" problem, and when some governments actually point out that they can't do it without tax money, people start complaining about "THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO STEAL ALL MY MONEY! THEY'RE SOCIALISTS!!!!".

Ironically, the 'ridiculous taxes' that the colonists were being forced to pay (Which is one of the major reasons the revolution happened) were only 1/20th of what British citizens were paying.

I mean, hell, I would give up my right to vote if I only had to pay 1/20th of the taxes. I don't even vote anyway! (I'm a US citizen, and we consider voting to be a 'god given right' or some such nonsense.) I could get into the whole 'Democracy is the majority telling the minority how to live' and 'The electoral college makes voting pointless', but that would be getting a bit off topic.

The problem is people (Yes, people. As in everyone.) these days are extremely opposed to anyone telling ANYONE, even if they aren't invested in the issue in any way shape or form, 'You can't do this'. They're snobby. (If you don't believe it, check ANY thread in the news section. 'They want to block porn sites that stream videos of child porn? NOT ON MY WATCH.' 'Trying to protect their investment with minor DRM? I'M NEVER BUYING FROM THEM AGAIN. CAN BURN IN HELL.', just Americans are more paranoid than other countries because the colonists revolved from Britain on the very basis of government control.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say that it's because the US is a very 'faith' based nation. As in, your person feelings and acting on emotion are considered to be more acceptable than using cold logic. So if at any point you go 'I don't know how I feel about this/I don

America is not faith based at all. It all comes down to freedom. We value our freedom more than we value being given security. You may not agree with this, but that's ok, because you don't have to live here. We do.

 

[Kopikatsu]

American politicians are inherently corrupt.

Politicians aren't grown in vats. They aren't raised in secret underground labs.

If American politicians are inherently corrupt, it's because American citizens are.

The Government isn't some kind of scary machine that eats souls. It's run by people. If there is a problem with the Government, it's because there is a problem with the society surrounding it.

That should be a lot more broad

All politicians are inherently corrupt.

To trust a politician is to relinquish your rights to a corporations greed.

You're going to have to explain that belief. What makes a politician different from anyone else? Does getting elected by the people suddenly turn you into some kind of child-snatchin, soul-devouring monster?

What makes them different is the fact that corporations know that they are targets to be compromised. They are selected and payed off, I'm sure you know what lobbyists are doing right? There you go, they grease the wallets and the wheels of the government (with wads of money) and help to get what a corporation desires. Everyone in government has a price, and corporations have far too much money to be spent. This you can't ignore or deny, this practice is happening in every country, in every government. It pisses me the fuck off...

I will neither ignore or deny it...but I'm not going to confirm it either. I will, however, question it. Do you have proof that backs up those claims? Whenever a politician is found taking bribes, it becomes a massive scandal that usually ruins their career.

Most politicians are fairly wealthy. If I (Who has so little money that if I want to spend money on anything nonessential, i.e. video games, I have to give up food for a day or so), was willing to reject bribes during my time as a Permit Expediter, then I can't imagine why someone with money would.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I was flicking through the American health service thread, and noticed that the main argument that the main argument against free healthcare was that they didn't want the government controlling it.
Most American's I've talked to also seem to distrust their government, a lot more than Europe does. Your constitution also seems to have been designed from the ground up to prevent the government from having anything more than a fringe affect on anything.

So, why does America distrust it's government so much more than Europe?

And, for comparison, I live it the UK, and we generally get on ok.

Here's a direct answer: This country was founded by people who'd literally fought against a tyrannical governing system and did not want to institute another government where the voice of the People were cast aside by the ruling elite in favor of "we know better than you". Its in America's blood to distrust those in power, because they're in power and can't be trusted. Our Founders recognized the fallibility of humanity, that we're all imperfect beings and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Therefore our Constitution was designed not to give power to the Government, but give power to the People.

Communism, as designed by Karl Marx and NOT Stalin or Lenin is designed to do much the same thing. Yet America hates Communists more than quite possibly anything else that has, does, will and can exist ever.

Difference being, Communism (supposedly) rewards everyone equally no matter if they make an A effort or a D- effort. It also fantasizes about human beings being inherently good and can be expected to treat each other equally and fairly. Equality isn't everyone gets the same things, its the idea that we're equally free to choose our paths in life, not have them chosen for us. In theory it sounds good but proven in practice, communism is oppressive and self-defeating. IF its such a great idea, how is it that every country its been practiced in is also high on human rights violations?

 

[SenseOfTumour]

American politicians are inherently corrupt.

Politicians aren't grown in vats. They aren't raised in secret underground labs.

If American politicians are inherently corrupt, it's because American citizens are.

The Government isn't some kind of scary machine that eats souls. It's run by people. If there is a problem with the Government, it's because there is a problem with the society surrounding it.

So, so true, I genuinely believe MOST politicians go into politics because they feel they might be able to make a change, make their country a better place, and then of course, sometimes they get to a position of power and power corrupts, but not always.

However, they are just people in the end.

Also, if a Government could fix every problem in the world in 10 years, but it meant 9 years of cost cutting and restricted freedoms, they'd be voted out of office in a week, the public just won't accept long term solutions.

Part of the very real problem is people want their roads to be good, want the police to protect them, an army to defend them, schools, libraries, garbage collection, street cleaning, etc, etc, but expect it all to come from nowhere, and when asked for taxes to cover it, start hating the government.

Everyone would be much happier if they had zero tax, and just paid for their own repairs, bin collections, health, etc, until something goes wrong and they can't afford it. Yet no-one wishes to put money into the system to ensure others don't end up stuck with nothing.

I'm always rather ashamed of the lack of compassion and basic humanity we show, so what if a few dollars of your paycheck goes to protecting the poor and needy, they're usually the foundations supporting the entire economy, filling all the minimum wage jobs.

What would make most sense, would be a worldwide minimum wage that ensured anyone in full time employment could afford basic housing, utilities, food, and healthcare, plus a small amount on top for basic luxuries. Then we wouldn't need so much for welfare.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Plus, you know, you guys complain about tax when it's a fraction of what most of us pay, but still expect public services - it's the eternal "I want, but don't want to pay" problem, and when some governments actually point out that they can't do it without tax money, people start complaining about "THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO STEAL ALL MY MONEY! THEY'RE SOCIALISTS!!!!".

Ironically, the 'ridiculous taxes' that the colonists were being forced to pay (Which is one of the major reasons the revolution happened) were only 1/20th of what British citizens were paying.

I mean, hell, I would give up my right to vote if I only had to pay 1/20th of the taxes. I don't even vote anyway! (I'm a US citizen, and we consider voting to be a 'god given right' or some such nonsense.) I could get into the whole 'Democracy is the majority telling the minority how to live' and 'The electoral college makes voting pointless', but that would be getting a bit off topic.

The problem is people (Yes, people. As in everyone.) these days are extremely opposed to anyone telling ANYONE, even if they aren't invested in the issue in any way shape or form, 'You can't do this'. They're snobby. (If you don't believe it, check ANY thread in the news section. 'They want to block porn sites that stream videos of child porn? NOT ON MY WATCH.' 'Trying to protect their investment with minor DRM? I'M NEVER BUYING FROM THEM AGAIN. CAN BURN IN HELL.', just Americans are more paranoid than other countries because the colonists revolved from Britain on the very basis of government control.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say that it's because the US is a very 'faith' based nation. As in, your person feelings and acting on emotion are considered to be more acceptable than using cold logic. So if at any point you go 'I don't know how I feel about this/I don

America is not faith based at all. It all comes down to freedom. We value our freedom more than we value being given security. You may not agree with this, but that's ok, because you don't have to live here. We do.

I actually DO have to live in the US. I have practically negative money right now because the economy is shit and noone is hiring. NOONE. I've literally gone door to door in a different shopping plaza each day for over a year, and I've only been hired one time for about a week before I was let go. The reason given was 'We just aren't making enough money to keep you on.'

It's hard to enjoy your personal freedoms when you're lying facedown in a gutter.

 

[JWAN]

because self hate is in these days. Pretty soon people wont like it because it will have become too mainstream and it will go the other direction. Also because up until 2000 nobody gave 2 shits about politics, now EVERYTHING is about politics and every time a politician fucks up it becomes their respective parties fault and corruption charges get thrown around until everyone realizes that nothing actually happened in the first place and the cycle resets itself.

Sorry about that massive run-on sentence.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

A more perfect example of not having federal control of health care would be from this weeks Extra Credit. Alison's insurance company declined her shoulder surgery. The staff of Extra Credit then went to the web and rasied more than enough money for the surgery in less than 6 hours. The surgery can now occur. If this had happened under the federal health care system and the Feds had declined her surgery, there is nothing Alison could do about it. She will not get her shoulder repaired. In fact the staff would face charges of interferring with a government agency and most likely be in jail now. If a doctor would perform the surgery outside of the gov't mandates they would loose their license.
When the gov't takes control of any aspect of your life they take away all other options.

Just curious, are you sure about that?

It just doesn't make any financial sense is all. In the UK, we have government run healthcare, the NHS, and if you are on a waiting list, but have the money, you can just pay up and go private and be on the operating table the next day. You won't be arrested and jailed for paying for healthcare, hell, the government WANT the people who can afford it to do that, so that the NHS is able to provide more for those who cannot afford private.

As a very simple example, my dentist does NHS services and private, if you need a filling, and you're willing to pay, he'll use the more expensive 'white' filler, instead of the metal stuff, leaving you without a smile like Robocop.

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

I was flicking through the American health service thread, and noticed that the main argument that the main argument against free healthcare was that they didn't want the government controlling it.
Most American's I've talked to also seem to distrust their government, a lot more than Europe does. Your constitution also seems to have been designed from the ground up to prevent the government from having anything more than a fringe affect on anything.

So, why does America distrust it's government so much more than Europe?

And, for comparison, I live it the UK, and we generally get on ok.

I suppose it's a little different for us since we don't have a constitution or a particular bill of rights, rather we operate on residual law and the European Court of Human Rights.

 

[Kopikatsu]

I was flicking through the American health service thread, and noticed that the main argument that the main argument against free healthcare was that they didn't want the government controlling it.
Most American's I've talked to also seem to distrust their government, a lot more than Europe does. Your constitution also seems to have been designed from the ground up to prevent the government from having anything more than a fringe affect on anything.

So, why does America distrust it's government so much more than Europe?

And, for comparison, I live it the UK, and we generally get on ok.

Here's a direct answer: This country was founded by people who'd literally fought against a tyrannical governing system and did not want to institute another government where the voice of the People were cast aside by the ruling elite in favor of "we know better than you". Its in America's blood to distrust those in power, because they're in power and can't be trusted. Our Founders recognized the fallibility of humanity, that we're all imperfect beings and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Therefore our Constitution was designed not to give power to the Government, but give power to the People.

Communism, as designed by Karl Marx and NOT Stalin or Lenin is designed to do much the same thing. Yet America hates Communists more than quite possibly anything else that has, does, will and can exist ever.

Difference being, Communism (supposedly) rewards everyone equally no matter if they make an A effort or a D- effort. It also fantasizes about human beings being inherently good and can be expected to treat each other equally and fairly. Equality isn't everyone gets the same things, its the idea that we're equally free to choose our paths in life, not have them chosen for us. In theory it sounds good but proven in practice, communism is oppressive and self-defeating. IF its such a great idea, how is it that every country its been practiced in is also high on human rights violations?

'In theory it sounds good but proven in practice, communism is oppressive and self-defeating. IF its such a great idea, how is it that every country its been practiced in is also high on human rights violations?'

Here's the thing. A Communist Dictatorship is an oxymoron. If a 'Communist' nation is oppressive, then it isn't Communist. That's just not how Communism works. A Communist Government has very little power.

Besides, the Democratic Republic model (What the US has) hasn't been working either, and it honestly doesn't even sound great in theory. It's the majority telling the minority how to live in theory, but in practice...

Well, what was Obama's public approval rating at last count? 11%? Well, he's who you voted in. Or if you DIDN'T vote for him...well, he got elected anyway, didn't he? That would be the failing of a DR.

Edit: Forgot a point. You're correct in that, in a Communist society, there wouldn't be anyone who wanted to succeed for the sake of what comes with success. However, that just means that people in a particular field are there because they WANT to be. Not because they were in it for the money, or the fame.

Here is an example. In America, a girl's father dies from cancer. Because of that, she wants to become a Doctor, specifically a cancer researcher and help find some kind of cure. If she doesn't have enough money or connections, it's possible that she may never be able to get into Medical school.

In a Communist country, she could, provided that she is intelligent enough to make it thought the coursework.

Communism doesn't kill ambition, it encourages it...it just doesn't encourage ambition for ambition's sake.

 

[JWAN]

American politicians are inherently corrupt.

In respect to the subject of free healthcare, I was pretty shocked at how they were treating Alison from Extra Credits, the healthcare system in the UK might not be perfect but bloody hell we don't let people become disabled just because they don't have enough money. :<

where did this happen?

 

[Da Orky Man]

I was flicking through the American health service thread, and noticed that the main argument that the main argument against free healthcare was that they didn't want the government controlling it.
Most American's I've talked to also seem to distrust their government, a lot more than Europe does. Your constitution also seems to have been designed from the ground up to prevent the government from having anything more than a fringe affect on anything.

So, why does America distrust it's government so much more than Europe?

And, for comparison, I live it the UK, and we generally get on ok.

Here's a direct answer: This country was founded by people who'd literally fought against a tyrannical governing system and did not want to institute another government where the voice of the People were cast aside by the ruling elite in favor of "we know better than you". Its in America's blood to distrust those in power, because they're in power and can't be trusted. Our Founders recognized the fallibility of humanity, that we're all imperfect beings and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Therefore our Constitution was designed not to give power to the Government, but give power to the People.

Communism, as designed by Karl Marx and NOT Stalin or Lenin is designed to do much the same thing. Yet America hates Communists more than quite possibly anything else that has, does, will and can exist ever.

Difference being, Communism (supposedly) rewards everyone equally no matter if they make an A effort or a D- effort. It also fantasizes about human beings being inherently good and can be expected to treat each other equally and fairly. Equality isn't everyone gets the same things, its the idea that we're equally free to choose our paths in life, not have them chosen for us. In theory it sounds good but proven in practice, communism is oppressive and self-defeating. IF its such a great idea, how is it that every country its been practiced in is also high on human rights violations?

If you read the Communist Manifesto, the wording is more like "To each according to his ability; to each according to his need".
According to that line, those who work harder would get more, though every person would get enough. The only reason that it didn't work is indeed because people are not inherently good.

 

[pat34us]

I am not going to get into the HCR debate on here but a huge reason for distrust over the government is that they forgot that they work for the people and as soon as they get elected their only mission seems to be is to get re-elected.

 

[poiuppx]

Division and stereotyping, ultimately. Ignoring the historical elements for a moment and focusing only on modern America, you've got a two-party system that has turned more antagonistic in my lifetime then I think it had ever been beforehand, to the point where the old joke about two Senators being unable to agree to the color of the sky, or arguing over what to have for lunch till both starve, is a lot less funny now. It's made worse by the fact that each time one person in one party screws up- as, y'know, humans are wont to do, being flawed entities and all -everyone outside of said party tends to identify the person party-first, as if they were part of a hive mind. A Democratic senator was taking bribes? All Democrats are corrupt! A Republican congressman said a racial slur? All Republicans are racists! Repeat over and over to the point where, even if you logically disagreed with all the individual cases, you'd still be left with a bad taste in your mouth.

That's not even getting into the whole 'grass is greener' effect. Person A leaves a mess after being in office, and Person B is radically different and vows to fix it. He gets voted in, and people expect Person B to fix it... immediately. Not in a few months, not in a year, RIGHT AWAY. There's other, more crucial matters of state to attend to? Tough, why aren't you fixing THIS first? The voters get disillusioned, and inevitably end up looking to vote in Person C to fix things, thus breaking up any consistency in the office... self-perpetuating cycle of ineffectiveness that looks- and admittedly sometimes is -like bald-faced lies.

 

[spartan231490]

For me, it's because the government isn't really ours. There's so many different special interests and corporate shills, I honestly don't see how anyone represents me.

spartan231490:
Listen, if you're really trying to understand American culture, there is one very important fact that you need to understand first. It is the basis of most of the differences between America and other countries. We value freedom, over safety. "Those who sacrifice freedom for a little temporary security, deserve neither." This is one of the core beliefs of our culture. That is why we have loose gun control, and that is why we dislike socialism, or any form of government regulation really.

There are other differences of course, but that is the core difference, as far as I can tell.

Then how do you explain the Patriot Act? We are just as prone to panicking and giving away our rights until we feel safe. Every time the U.S. is attacked or under the threat of attack we revert to fascistic systems, usually with discrimination.

The patriot act had a lot of opposition. Our government has become somewhat abusive lately, the Patriot act being a great example of this. There were no people asking for the Patriot act, that came straight from the government. And just because we may be forced to accept some restrictions to our freedoms during a panic time, doesn't change the fact that we still value freedom more than security and that we will not accept something permanent that restricts our rights, if we have any choice.

 

[spartan231490]

Plus, you know, you guys complain about tax when it's a fraction of what most of us pay, but still expect public services - it's the eternal "I want, but don't want to pay" problem, and when some governments actually point out that they can't do it without tax money, people start complaining about "THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO STEAL ALL MY MONEY! THEY'RE SOCIALISTS!!!!".

Ironically, the 'ridiculous taxes' that the colonists were being forced to pay (Which is one of the major reasons the revolution happened) were only 1/20th of what British citizens were paying.

I mean, hell, I would give up my right to vote if I only had to pay 1/20th of the taxes. I don't even vote anyway! (I'm a US citizen, and we consider voting to be a 'god given right' or some such nonsense.) I could get into the whole 'Democracy is the majority telling the minority how to live' and 'The electoral college makes voting pointless', but that would be getting a bit off topic.

The problem is people (Yes, people. As in everyone.) these days are extremely opposed to anyone telling ANYONE, even if they aren't invested in the issue in any way shape or form, 'You can't do this'. They're snobby. (If you don't believe it, check ANY thread in the news section. 'They want to block porn sites that stream videos of child porn? NOT ON MY WATCH.' 'Trying to protect their investment with minor DRM? I'M NEVER BUYING FROM THEM AGAIN. CAN BURN IN HELL.', just Americans are more paranoid than other countries because the colonists revolved from Britain on the very basis of government control.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say that it's because the US is a very 'faith' based nation. As in, your person feelings and acting on emotion are considered to be more acceptable than using cold logic. So if at any point you go 'I don't know how I feel about this/I don

America is not faith based at all. It all comes down to freedom. We value our freedom more than we value being given security. You may not agree with this, but that's ok, because you don't have to live here. We do.

I actually DO have to live in the US. I have practically negative money right now because the economy is shit and noone is hiring. NOONE. I've literally gone door to door in a different shopping plaza each day for over a year, and I've only been hired one time for about a week before I was let go. The reason given was 'We just aren't making enough money to keep you on.'

It's hard to enjoy your personal freedoms when you're lying facedown in a gutter.

Your not the only one here who's flat broke and can't get a job. But the economy's current problems don't come from too much personal freedom, they come from runaway deficit spending, and 40 years of bad government policies and over-regulation that has completely destroyed all manufacturing in our economy. Policies which also encourage an increased gab between the rich and everyone else to such a point that it should really be called class warfare. That has nothing to do with personal freedom, and everything to do with a government that has become too big, and exceeded the authority laid out in the US constitution.

 

[Kathinka]

For me, it's because the government isn't really ours. There's so many different special interests and corporate shills, I honestly don't see how anyone represents me.

spartan231490:
Listen, if you're really trying to understand American culture, there is one very important fact that you need to understand first. It is the basis of most of the differences between America and other countries. We value freedom, over safety. "Those who sacrifice freedom for a little temporary security, deserve neither." This is one of the core beliefs of our culture. That is why we have loose gun control, and that is why we dislike socialism, or any form of government regulation really.

There are other differences of course, but that is the core difference, as far as I can tell.

Then how do you explain the Patriot Act? We are just as prone to panicking and giving away our rights until we feel safe. Every time the U.S. is attacked or under the threat of attack we revert to fascistic systems, usually with discrimination.

The patriot act had a lot of opposition. Our government has become somewhat abusive lately, the Patriot act being a great example of this. There were no people asking for the Patriot act, that came straight from the government. And just because we may be forced to accept some restrictions to our freedoms during a panic time, doesn't change the fact that we still value freedom more than security and that we will not accept something permanent that restricts our rights, if we have any choice.

they keep saying that, and yet american citizens are under a lot harsher control and restrictions than those of almost all other western nations. i think it's just something that they like to keep telling themselves. and yes, i have lived in the u.s., as well as several other first world contries.