Why does America fear/distrust it's government?

[JWAN]

where did this happen?

Alison from extra credits was refused surgery by her insurance company so the escapist fans donated money so she could get it done. If she hadn't gotten the surgery done she would have been disabled in one arm and probably in the other aswell eventually. Just watch their latest episode it explains it there.

It was a pre-existing condition and under the new healthcare bill (which was passed) she should have been covered. Meaning, The new bill that was supposed to fix everything doesnt.

 

[theultimateend]

I was flicking through the American health service thread, and noticed that the main argument that the main argument against free healthcare was that they didn't want the government controlling it.
Most American's I've talked to also seem to distrust their government, a lot more than Europe does. Your constitution also seems to have been designed from the ground up to prevent the government from having anything more than a fringe affect on anything.

So, why does America distrust it's government so much more than Europe?

And, for comparison, I live it the UK, and we generally get on ok.

Nixon and Watergate started the Mistrust of the government in large scale.

Fox and similar for profit news stations did the rest of the work.

where did this happen?

Alison from extra credits was refused surgery by her insurance company so the escapist fans donated money so she could get it done. If she hadn't gotten the surgery done she would have been disabled in one arm and probably in the other aswell eventually. Just watch their latest episode it explains it there.

It was a pre-existing condition and under the new healthcare bill (which was passed) she should have been covered. Meaning, The new bill that was supposed to fix everything doesnt.

It hasn't fully gone into affect yet.

Not that we should let little things like reality get in the way of it.

Plenty of reasons to complain about the new healthcare bill, your point is one of the maybe 3 that isn't legitimate.

 

[Kopikatsu]

I was flicking through the American health service thread, and noticed that the main argument that the main argument against free healthcare was that they didn't want the government controlling it.
Most American's I've talked to also seem to distrust their government, a lot more than Europe does. Your constitution also seems to have been designed from the ground up to prevent the government from having anything more than a fringe affect on anything.

So, why does America distrust it's government so much more than Europe?

And, for comparison, I live it the UK, and we generally get on ok.

Here's a direct answer: This country was founded by people who'd literally fought against a tyrannical governing system and did not want to institute another government where the voice of the People were cast aside by the ruling elite in favor of "we know better than you". Its in America's blood to distrust those in power, because they're in power and can't be trusted. Our Founders recognized the fallibility of humanity, that we're all imperfect beings and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Therefore our Constitution was designed not to give power to the Government, but give power to the People.

Communism, as designed by Karl Marx and NOT Stalin or Lenin is designed to do much the same thing. Yet America hates Communists more than quite possibly anything else that has, does, will and can exist ever.

Difference being, Communism (supposedly) rewards everyone equally no matter if they make an A effort or a D- effort. It also fantasizes about human beings being inherently good and can be expected to treat each other equally and fairly. Equality isn't everyone gets the same things, its the idea that we're equally free to choose our paths in life, not have them chosen for us. In theory it sounds good but proven in practice, communism is oppressive and self-defeating. IF its such a great idea, how is it that every country its been practiced in is also high on human rights violations?

'In theory it sounds good but proven in practice, communism is oppressive and self-defeating. IF its such a great idea, how is it that every country its been practiced in is also high on human rights violations?'

Here's the thing. A Communist Dictatorship is an oxymoron. If a 'Communist' nation is oppressive, then it isn't Communist. That's just not how Communism works. A Communist Government has very little power.

Besides, the Democratic Republic model (What the US has) hasn't been working either, and it honestly doesn't even sound great in theory. It's the majority telling the minority how to live in theory, but in practice...

Well, what was Obama's public approval rating at last count? 11%? Well, he's who you voted in. Or if you DIDN'T vote for him...well, he got elected anyway, didn't he? That would be the failing of a DR.

A communist dictatorship isn't an oxymoron. Communism is an economic system where everyone gets paid the same, and a political system where everyone is treated the same. If everyone is equally oppressed, then it's still communism.

The Democratic Republic model works the best of any that I've looked at, and it has the best theory. Do you want to know why our opinions on that subject differ even with identical information. Because we have different values. I believe that freedom is quite literally, the absolute highest good possible. I would rather be dead, than a slave. The democratic republic model is the best with this value system because it allows the common people the opportunity to watch and limit their government. This is necessary because a government is made up of "people, usually notably, ungoverned." When given power, most humans will abuse it, that's just the way it works, so there must be a system to watch them. Unfortunately, Americans have recently declined to take advantage of this opportunity, but the opportunity remains available. Yes, there are many many flaws in the execution of this system, and a few flaws in the system itself, but this is true of any system, IMO others far more than our own.

If communism is such a great system, move to China. I'll take my US system. I'll try to improve it in any way I can, because it does have problems, but at the end of the day, it's still the best system that I've heard of.

...What? No. It's not an economic system. The idea behind Communism is a classless society. In a Communist State, you wouldn't have to 'watch over those in power' because nobody can be in power. Communism is basically pure democracy, as opposed to a Democratic Republic.

There could be no slaves in a Communist State, because the position of a slave only exists in a society with a chaste system which ranks people based on occupation, nationality, and lineage. To be a slave means you're of the lowest class, of which there are none in Communism.

Also, just for the record, China isn't Communist. They do have a Communist party, but China is a Republic. The US is also a Republic. Neither are Communist.

Protip: Your vote actually doesn't count. It's a guideline for the electoral college, but if they feel like ignoring the popular vote, they can. John Q. Adams became President with only 30.9% of the popular vote.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_president_only_won_thirty-two_percent_of_the_popular_vote#ixzz1R4EFmto2


Your vote technically counts if you consider that you vote in the members of the electoral college, but if they don't vote the way you wanted, then it's kind of moot.

 

[Kleingeier]

where did this happen?

Alison from extra credits was refused surgery by her insurance company so the escapist fans donated money so she could get it done. If she hadn't gotten the surgery done she would have been disabled in one arm and probably in the other aswell eventually. Just watch their latest episode it explains it there.

It was a pre-existing condition and under the new healthcare bill (which was passed) she should have been covered. Meaning, The new bill that was supposed to fix everything doesnt.

It hasn't been fully put in place yet. And it wasn't supposed to fix everything. It was supposed to give everyone safety coverage until it could be fixed properly.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

A communist dictatorship isn't an oxymoron. Communism is an economic system where everyone gets paid the same, and a political system where everyone is treated the same. If everyone is equally oppressed, then it's still communism.

The people doing the oppressing are not being oppressed. Its not equal. It isnt communism. America hates it for no rational reason. Its scary and a little depressing. The world will NEVER get to see if it actually works. Real communism. Cus you bet the second someone tries America will be there to burn the seeds of the country and salt the land, then purge it with hellfire. Then Sink the island. The unending fury toward communism surpasses the energy of ten thousand stars exploding into supernovas. Its weird.

America seems to be founded on the one obvious untruth that the harder you work the more you are payed. I wish lol. Who actually believes that? Is anyone that stupid? I dont understand why that even seems to be true...

 

[PipPup]

You also have to understand that during the designing process of the national and state government powers the system was designed to keep the uneducated masses from ruining the country by giving them little power in many aspects of the government. Over many years of evolution in the public education system civilians have become more intelligent while their power remains the same. This has caused a dissatisfaction in the people with remainders of the American Revolution and the Water Gate scandal looming over them. That is a big part of the distrust.

 

[Enamour]

Americans have become consumers. The largest industries in the world; oil, technology, health care. How's the US government's control over oil helped ANYONE? It hasn't. Health care? Hmm.

Let's look at the US government's track record in world conflicts as ONE example eh.

Angola - South Africa fought Cuba and Russia for America but America kept interfering when South Africa tried defending Botswana... doesn't really help I explain this shit if you don't know the history. Point is; not much love for Americans after that war.

Vietnam - Mass murder in an unjust war?

WW2 - American companies supplied the Nazi's. Bush' grandfather sold them the oil that kept the Luftwaffe in the air: American politicians made ALOT of money, Nazi's were transported in Ford trucks etc. The war was half won when the supplies stopped and the Americans sent troops to "save the world".

Afghanistan (back then) - didn't want to piss of the Russians, gave Afghanis weapons without proper targeting systems.
Afghanistan (today) - America finished what the Russians started. Freed the fuck out of them.

Iraq - Why has everyone forgotten that the UN declared the Iraq War illegal back in 2003? Let's not forget everything else that's gone wrong there. Anyone seen the refusal to go into Libya and the reasons why? Fucking ridiculous.

France - Just an interesting sidenote on why Americans love bashing the French; America tried paying debts to France with "printed money", meaning a devaluation in the currency. Charles de Gaulle said "No, you pay in gold." and thus America refused to pay and France got a healthy dose of American propoganda.

South America - Mostly hates the north. Why?


The vast majority of you won't have read this post, the vast majority of those who've read this far won't agree with me AT ALL; that's fine because most of it is historical record. Here's my point. A politician's job is to do "stuff", he can't do stuff if he doesn't have a post ie. point number one on any politician's agenda is "Get elected at all costs." What did politicians study? Politics. I might be wrong but I don't exactly think that politics is geared towards solving problems, how can it? The fuck do politicians know about solving problems? FUCKOLL, NOTHING, NILL.

Now back to the OT. Imagine a country more powerful and rich than any other in the world. Now imagine that it's run by a bunch of buttfuckers who studied politics. Now imagine that they've screwed over the majority of the world in one form or another in the last 50 years.

Liberal, Republican... they're different sides to the coin. I mean NO ONE trusts the US government, NO ONE. Not the world, not US citizens, no one. It's an irresponsible government unlike most European governments. Reagan was technically guilty of high-treason. Contras, anyone?

Anyway, it's ranting when you can't justify each statement, you would need to write a book on it. Anyone read Naom Chomsky? I'm wondering if it's worth it.

 

[Kathinka]

snip

that other parties exist does not chance the current situation that there are only two virtually identical parties in power and that this will not change in the forseeable future. east germany did have a wide spectrum of parties too, but there was such a strong social pressure to vote for either the communist party or the party of socialist unity. sure, you could vote for anything else, but it would do exactly nothing. like in the usa. i wouldn't consider east germany a democratic nation, so i don't think the u.s. are, either.

as for the school thing: from first to 12th grade i have had not one classmate have detention (there isn't even such a thing in the schools i went to) or being expelled. in twelve years a stern talk or a conversation with the parents of the kid were always enough.

i find it hard to believe that anyone would want to live in a restrictive system, so i have a hard time believing your story. just out of interest, in what countries did you say the people you know lived? i can't think of a single nation in the european union with so little personal freedom like in the usa.

i partially agree with the last paragraph. the people are the core of the problem, yes. but the government of course profits from that and will do everything to keep things that way. they have no interest in a true democracy and freedom, they want obedient subjects, not a citizen body they have to be afraid of that will hold them responsible for their fuckups.

 

[Kleingeier]

Nixon and Watergate started the Mistrust of the government in large scale.

Fox and similar for profit news stations did the rest of the work.

Fun fact: The basis for Fox News was drafted within the Nixon Administration. More connected than you think!

 

[Double A]

I was going to go on for a paragraph or two, but then I saw this, and couldn't put it any better.

But as a side note, the Constitution is unfortunately not always adhered to by every politician all the time. This adds to the distrust just a little bit. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Understatement]

It's a measure of keeping the government in line. Despite my constant claims to the contrary, people in the United States enjoy more personal freedom than really any other country on Earth (except for gay marriage for some stupid reason, but we're working on that one). The simple reason being we question our government on a daily basis.

We value our personal freedom above all else. It's the reason we don't have laws preventing the sale of M-rated games or R-rated films to minors. It's the reason we're allowed to purchase firearms for personal use. It's the reason we're free to choose what healthcare system works for us, rather than being automatically shoehorned into a government option (as I said in the other topic, I don't mind a government healthcare system so long as it isn't mandatory). It's not that we fear our government, it's that we don't want other people telling us how to live our lives.

(I think I love you.)

 

[ntw3001]

The government has power in a very Captailistic society, I don't see a reason not to fear it.

I really don't agree. The sole purpose of government is to prevent purely-Capitalist enterprises interfering with the welfare of the people as a whole. The duty of a government is to hold power over business and disincentivise unethical practice on behalf of its citizens. Laws are set by whoever holds the power to enforce them, and an elected government is essentially a way of putting that power in the hands of a group whose eventual goal is not solely to acquire power and profit (although obviously both things are desired as a means to an end), but to enrich and empower the citizenry as a whole. Stronger businesses mean weaker government, not the other way round.

That's not really the sole purpose of the government. Frankly, the purpose of the government is up to interpretation. Some would say that it is there to win us wars and give us some national pride. Others would say that it's just a bunch of rich white people lining their pockets. Many say that it's just a corrupt piece of shit trying to oppress the people.

You can't say, with 100% confidence, that "this is the purpose of government, period," because, frankly, it doesn't really have a purpose other than being the official posterboy of a nation and being the ruling force behind that nation.

Trying to win wars/give national pride to what end? Just a bunch of people killing time, as a hobby? And as for oppressing the people, yes a government can be corrupt. Elected governments seldom are. Those that get into power via election (eg, Nazis) don't have 'more elections' high on the agenda. An unelected government, on the other hand, is a group powerful enough to enforce its laws without responsibility to the people over whom it holds that power. Such as, for example, a large business in the absence of some ultimate regulatory power or other.

Se yeah, I say that with 100% confidence. Of course, I'm only talking about democratically elected government. Sorry if you're disillusioned by the nature of the political machine, but since you're always going to be under the rule of whichever person can kill you the easiest, it's to your benefit that that happens to be someone who wouldn't profit from it.

 

[sir.rutthed]

I was flicking through the American health service thread, and noticed that the main argument that the main argument against free healthcare was that they didn't want the government controlling it.
Most American's I've talked to also seem to distrust their government, a lot more than Europe does. Your constitution also seems to have been designed from the ground up to prevent the government from having anything more than a fringe affect on anything.

So, why does America distrust it's government so much more than Europe?

And, for comparison, I live it the UK, and we generally get on ok.

Two things: Watergate and 9/11.

Watergate destroyed our perception of Uncle Sam as the good guy whose out there to look out for all us little folks. It damaged our perception of our government so badly that we're still suffering from it today whether it be right or wrong.

9/11 and the PATRIOT ACT pretty much destroyed our personal freedoms in the name of security. Government is now pretty much unchecked in a WHOLE lot of really invasive stuff, and we know it and resent it whether we acknowledge it or not.


We can go on and on about how our systems need reform and how we're complaining about all the wrong things, but in the end our trust has been raped and Washington has done absolutely nothing to repair it. It's only gotten worse. Ask anyone. They'll tell you what dickholes the vast majority of our elected representatives are.

 

[MortarTeam]

ITP: As far as I know. Your mileage may vary!

Well, in most European governments word Lobbing for "..." would automatically mean distrust and no hope of winning elections, for a politician. In US it is business as usual. And really, do you trust your boss? Not immediate superior, but the guy on top, who's bathing in euros and screwing best french ladies money can provide? No? Well, there ya go. They have limited choice, wich is no better then too wide choice we Europeans face. What can I say, political systems, every fucking one of them are screwed up. Somepeople are more relaxed then others, though.

 

[David Hebda]

American politicians are inherently corrupt.

Politicians aren't grown in vats. They aren't raised in secret underground labs.

If American politicians are inherently corrupt, it's because American citizens are.

The Government isn't some kind of scary machine that eats souls. It's run by people. If there is a problem with the Government, it's because there is a problem with the society surrounding it.

That should be a lot more broad

All politicians are inherently corrupt.

To trust a politician is to relinquish your rights to a corporations greed.

You're going to have to explain that belief. What makes a politician different from anyone else? Does getting elected by the people suddenly turn you into some kind of child-snatching, soul-devouring monster?

Absolute power does NOT corrupt absolute, rather the corrupt seek absolute power.

 

[spartan231490]

snip

that other parties exist does not chance the current situation that there are only two virtually identical parties in power and that this will not change in the forseeable future. east germany did have a wide spectrum of parties too, but there was such a strong social pressure to vote for either the communist party or the party of socialist unity. sure, you could vote for anything else, but it would do exactly nothing. like in the usa. i wouldn't consider east germany a democratic nation, so i don't think the u.s. are, either.

as for the school thing: from first to 12th grade i have had not one classmate have detention (there isn't even such a thing in the schools i went to) or being expelled. in twelve years a stern talk or a conversation with the parents of the kid were always enough.

i find it hard to believe that anyone would want to live in a restrictive system, so i have a hard time believing your story. just out of interest, in what countries did you say the people you know lived? i can't think of a single nation in the european union with so little personal freedom like in the usa.

i partially agree with the last paragraph. the people are the core of the problem, yes. but the government of course profits from that and will do everything to keep things that way. they have no interest in a true democracy and freedom, they want obedient subjects, not a citizen body they have to be afraid of that will hold them responsible for their fuckups.

Italy, France, and either Scotland, or Switzerland, or one of the S countries for one(He moved around a few times but lived in Europe for a decade, or so. Another has family in Sweden he visits routinely. Another went to France, Spain, Portugal, the UK among others I can't remember. She was there for most of the summer two years in a row. Every one of them says the same thing.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I dislike the American government because of the fact that Obama's healthcare plan is being ignored because it is "socialist". So only the rich and powerful can get healed without having to sell everything they own, while the common folk (i.e. me and everyone else who wasn't born with the silver spoon of Jesus Christ shoved up their ass) have to sacrifice an arm and a leg to fix an arm and a leg.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds a hellova lot like America's current health care system and not the one Obama wants to implement.

 

[Kathinka]

snip

that other parties exist does not chance the current situation that there are only two virtually identical parties in power and that this will not change in the forseeable future. east germany did have a wide spectrum of parties too, but there was such a strong social pressure to vote for either the communist party or the party of socialist unity. sure, you could vote for anything else, but it would do exactly nothing. like in the usa. i wouldn't consider east germany a democratic nation, so i don't think the u.s. are, either.

as for the school thing: from first to 12th grade i have had not one classmate have detention (there isn't even such a thing in the schools i went to) or being expelled. in twelve years a stern talk or a conversation with the parents of the kid were always enough.

i find it hard to believe that anyone would want to live in a restrictive system, so i have a hard time believing your story. just out of interest, in what countries did you say the people you know lived? i can't think of a single nation in the european union with so little personal freedom like in the usa.

i partially agree with the last paragraph. the people are the core of the problem, yes. but the government of course profits from that and will do everything to keep things that way. they have no interest in a true democracy and freedom, they want obedient subjects, not a citizen body they have to be afraid of that will hold them responsible for their fuckups.

Italy, France, and either Scotland, or Switzerland, or one of the S countries for one(He moved around a few times but lived in Europe for a decade, or so. Another has family in Sweden he visits routinely. Another went to France, Spain, Portugal, the UK among others I can't remember. She was there for most of the summer two years in a row. Every one of them says the same thing.

well, then sorry but they should probably get their heads and senses checked. each one of those places (exept the UK maybe, i don't know about that. have been there only for 8 weeks) allows a significantly larger portion of personal and political freedom on several levels than you would get anywhere in the u.s. i've been to(ny, boston, az, cal).

and everyone who has also been there says the same^^

in the u.s. i will get punished in school if i say "oh my god", because it's considered blasphemic. the students are pretty much forced to worship the flag daily. if i'm not a christian or don't believe in christian values, i will be socialy stigmatized. anything regarding sexuality is so socially unacceptable that i can get in trouble for anything that is ever so slightly besides the norm. any kind of disagreement with u.s. policies and i'm a communist, terrorist or i just hate freedom. i can't vote for any other party than the demopublicans, unless i want my vote to be worth just as much as if i had flushed the voting slip down the drain. the list goes on and on..
how anyone with half a brain could keep a straight face while saying amerians enjoy a greater freedom than europeans is beyond me.

 

[Fbuh]

Because people are convinced the government controlling healthcare would somehow "fuck it up". Even ignoring the fact that the health care is fucked up as is, I don't understand their line of thought.

EXACTLY!!!!

THat is why I supported Obama's plan. I did not think it would old up, but I supported it becasue I knew that it would get the wheels grinding in teh right direction.

WE distrust the governemtn so much becasue we gave these people power. We gave it to them to sort everything out for us, so that we didn't ahve to think about it. After awhile, they realized this, and so everything became "For the good of the country." Now it is just a huge mess of beaurocracy and organizations, all vying for power with each other, holding secrets and worrying about the power and the money. No one actually cares how the country is anymore.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

Vietnam, Watergate, 1968 Democratic Convention, Second Iraq War, etc. Baby boomers (some of which are my parents, and are currently one of the largest demographics in the country) came from a generation that experienced a lot of things that caused them to distrust the government. Vietnam was never properly justified or explained to the public, but the draft and war killed and paralyzed thousands of kids who had no idea what they were getting into. Nixon promised to end the war, not before it leaked he was stepping up operations first by illegally bombing Cambodia. Then he did end the war, only to be discovered running a paranoid two-bit conspiracy to try to discredit political opponents.

In more modern times, we've recently learned that the Second Iraq War was predicated on the secret testimony of one really wrong and really not credible informant who basically tricked our dumb ass defense department into going to war. Then they paraded out our "credible" officials to pass off this obvious bullshit as fact. They also tried to tell us Hussein harbored terrorists which was laughable to me even as a high schooler.

On a more local front, our state representative sat down at our kitchen table and told us she was going to protect the retired teachers pension fund (which teachers were forced to pay into instead of establishing their own accounts), and proceeded to do the exact opposite under the slightest urge of our now convicted governor, draining the system to fund (among other things) the state's PR health care campaign. She eventually got out of the Assembly and got a cushy appointment. That's why we don't trust our government.

I don't know how anyone living in the UK could trust their government after watching In The Name of the Father. Damn. Not my country, though.