Gaming websites have PC game sections, and PC games are discussed alongside PS and Xbox games, so that logic doesn't seem too sound. Of course on the surface it makes sense, and initially in 2007 and 2008 before it had really developed as a games platform it's justifiable, but by now you have major developers like EA and Square Enix developing for iOS, and Nintendo has set their sights squarely on Apple. Eventually you'd think people would realise that yes, it didn't start out as a gaming platform, but it certainly is one now, just like the PC didn't start out as one - hell joysticks used to plug in through the midi port on a sound card!canadamus_prime said:
Why doesn't the iPod touch get recognition as a handheld gaming console?
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I'm 150% certain you haven't, simply because there are far too many games for iOS for that statement to be true for any one human being.Furburt said:
Sure, the DS is certainly a good platform, but while it has the strength of physical buttons that make it a preference for certain games, it lacks the tilt controls (to be fixed with the 3DS) and the multitouch for the touch screen to really compare. While it's pretty clear that the DS is perfectly suited for Okamiden and probably wouldn't work on any other system, there are games that the DS' control scheme simply don't allow for or make a very poor attempt at handling them.
I wouldn't call the Commodore 64 a console either? I mean the original iPod was a music device so anything iPod will always be considered a music device, it can never not be a music device since the iPod is pretty much the definitive mobile mp3 player (or at least the first one I can think of).migo said:
It's probably due to Apple's original marketing scheme.
It's part of the iPod range, which started out as a range of simple music players. It then went onto become a video player from the "iPod Video" range of iPods, then eventually gained more functions.
To this day, iPods are capable of so much, but because of the original marketing scheme, in the consumer mindset it's still an mp3 player 1st.
It's like when the PSP first came out. It was capable of playing music, videos, and running an internet browser, but its primary function is video games. That's the market sector that it got its sales from.
Still... at least they're doing better with their multi-functional gaming/media device than Nokia did.
It's part of the iPod range, which started out as a range of simple music players. It then went onto become a video player from the "iPod Video" range of iPods, then eventually gained more functions.
To this day, iPods are capable of so much, but because of the original marketing scheme, in the consumer mindset it's still an mp3 player 1st.
It's like when the PSP first came out. It was capable of playing music, videos, and running an internet browser, but its primary function is video games. That's the market sector that it got its sales from.
Still... at least they're doing better with their multi-functional gaming/media device than Nokia did.
to me the ipod is just a bunch of shit combined together over time. it started out as a shitty mp3 player, then they added a shitty camera, and that shake to shuffle songs thing, and a bunch of other crap that is novelty at best. Now they are taking on games and people are buying them up because honestly thats what people do. I have about five games on my phone 4 of them are shit but I still keep them because I like to have games in my pocket if I encounter some unexpected free time.
Its also worth noting that the single biggest conplaint about kinect for the 360 is its lack of tactile control and the same can be said for the ipod touch. Ive played a number of games on it and the only one I enjoyed was a simple game where you fell down a tunnel and had to dodge barriers and what not. I enjoyed the game because it was simple but it didnt have any lasting appeal. The person who was showing me his itouch also showed me a bunch of little apps like an earthquake detector and a thing where you could look at all the different parts of the brain and what not, but again it was all just novelty shit. was it cool? kind of, but I wouldnt be willing to spend money on something that wont entertain me for more than five minutes.
Its also worth noting that the single biggest conplaint about kinect for the 360 is its lack of tactile control and the same can be said for the ipod touch. Ive played a number of games on it and the only one I enjoyed was a simple game where you fell down a tunnel and had to dodge barriers and what not. I enjoyed the game because it was simple but it didnt have any lasting appeal. The person who was showing me his itouch also showed me a bunch of little apps like an earthquake detector and a thing where you could look at all the different parts of the brain and what not, but again it was all just novelty shit. was it cool? kind of, but I wouldnt be willing to spend money on something that wont entertain me for more than five minutes.
We don't talk about iphones when we talk about hand held gaming for the same reason we don't talk about addictinggames.com when we talk about pc gaming.
Simple flash games are not the same as the games played on the ds or the psp, no matter how hard Zynga tries.
Simple flash games are not the same as the games played on the ds or the psp, no matter how hard Zynga tries.
Simply put, it's not made to be a handheld gaming device.
In comparison, the DS and PSP were designed to be gaming consoles. They fit snugly in hand and the buttons are placed strategically to be easy to switch between buttons. That and the fact they are physical buttons mean that you don't even need to look at them to know you've pressed them and you can focus your attention to the screen.
The reason the PC is considered a platform is because when a computer is developed, the developer doesn't say "Let's make a device that surfs the web and makes spreadsheets," they say "People use these computers in more ways then we can imagine, lets make sure it can serve any kind of purpose." Thusly when people buy a computer they can be buying it for the sole purpose of managing their home business, loading it up with video editing and graphics programs, or even for games. For some, computers are business tool, for others it's a straight up game console and it was designed in a simple enough matter to serve both purposes and millions of others.
PCs are a different beast, in that they are large and not designed to be handheld. The IPod Touch and iPhone are built to be handheld, which limits it's capabilities for users to use it other then what it was designed to do; Play Music, Web surf, and Make Calls. When Apple Designed the iPod Touch, they did not think "make this a gaming device" they said "make a music player with web capabilities." That's why it has such a simple, elegant design.migo said:
In comparison, the DS and PSP were designed to be gaming consoles. They fit snugly in hand and the buttons are placed strategically to be easy to switch between buttons. That and the fact they are physical buttons mean that you don't even need to look at them to know you've pressed them and you can focus your attention to the screen.
The reason the PC is considered a platform is because when a computer is developed, the developer doesn't say "Let's make a device that surfs the web and makes spreadsheets," they say "People use these computers in more ways then we can imagine, lets make sure it can serve any kind of purpose." Thusly when people buy a computer they can be buying it for the sole purpose of managing their home business, loading it up with video editing and graphics programs, or even for games. For some, computers are business tool, for others it's a straight up game console and it was designed in a simple enough matter to serve both purposes and millions of others.
Reading all the points, and counterpoints, I can only think of one thing.
"I'm not a fanboy--" "Yes you are."
Allow me to elaborate. OP, if you're not an Apple fanboy, why are you making such a huge effort to defend the iTouch to death? A lot of the counterpoints you have made are not universal. You ignore that many other phones can be argued as gaming systems using the exact same logic that you've used with the iPhone, and frankly, some of your arguments make me laugh.
Particularly the insinuation that the PS3's dual-analog controllers are not meant for FPS games, or that anyone not using a steering wheel in a racing game sucks. My general accuracy in CoD4 would like to have a word with that. Likewise, the idea that an analog stick = shitty driving. I've wiped the floor with people using the Wii Wheel in Mario Kart Wii using the GameCube controller. I can control Halo Wars just fine using my normal Xbox 360 controller. I have nearly beaten a arcade stick using Street Fighter IV pro using Dan Hibiki and a standard DualShock.
On the other hand, I can't aim for shit in Metroid Prime: Hunters, though I can take potshots accurately in Corruption. I couldn't make any progress in that Wario game for the DS that I forget the name of because it required so much precise scribbling for your attacks. (It's the one where you get the magic wand and become the Purple Wind; if anyone can name it for me, thanks.) That doesn't mean the controls are shitty, though, because, in particular, my MP:H multiplayer experience boiled down to being sniped harder than I ever thought possible in the game. Damn you Trace.
What I'm trying to say is that just because you suck with a controller, doesn't make it an invalid form of gaming for a genre. Just because you can't play a DS game, doesn't mean the controls are crippled.
For the record, I did play an FPS on the iPhone. I think it was NOVA, but I can't be sure. My experience boiled down to the game not aiming in any way like I wanted it to, and everyone else in the room seemed to have the same problem, because they would miss. Constantly. The only reason I kept dying was because I missed more than they did. Granted, this was a singular experience, but I don't state it as evidence that the game necessarily sucks. Just that I find the controls really awkward.
Of course, you on the other hand claimed such inability to play in a certain way was a fact. All to defend your precious fanboy reasons for saying that the iPhone, or iPod Touch, whatever, is a gaming system.
Oh, and I especially laugh at "You can always tell who's using traditional controls in an online racer because they keep zig-zagging around corners. They can't do a steady turn, etc." I can do those turns just fine without a steering wheel in Forza 3, thanks for assuming.
"I'm not a fanboy--" "Yes you are."
Allow me to elaborate. OP, if you're not an Apple fanboy, why are you making such a huge effort to defend the iTouch to death? A lot of the counterpoints you have made are not universal. You ignore that many other phones can be argued as gaming systems using the exact same logic that you've used with the iPhone, and frankly, some of your arguments make me laugh.
Particularly the insinuation that the PS3's dual-analog controllers are not meant for FPS games, or that anyone not using a steering wheel in a racing game sucks. My general accuracy in CoD4 would like to have a word with that. Likewise, the idea that an analog stick = shitty driving. I've wiped the floor with people using the Wii Wheel in Mario Kart Wii using the GameCube controller. I can control Halo Wars just fine using my normal Xbox 360 controller. I have nearly beaten a arcade stick using Street Fighter IV pro using Dan Hibiki and a standard DualShock.
On the other hand, I can't aim for shit in Metroid Prime: Hunters, though I can take potshots accurately in Corruption. I couldn't make any progress in that Wario game for the DS that I forget the name of because it required so much precise scribbling for your attacks. (It's the one where you get the magic wand and become the Purple Wind; if anyone can name it for me, thanks.) That doesn't mean the controls are shitty, though, because, in particular, my MP:H multiplayer experience boiled down to being sniped harder than I ever thought possible in the game. Damn you Trace.
What I'm trying to say is that just because you suck with a controller, doesn't make it an invalid form of gaming for a genre. Just because you can't play a DS game, doesn't mean the controls are crippled.
For the record, I did play an FPS on the iPhone. I think it was NOVA, but I can't be sure. My experience boiled down to the game not aiming in any way like I wanted it to, and everyone else in the room seemed to have the same problem, because they would miss. Constantly. The only reason I kept dying was because I missed more than they did. Granted, this was a singular experience, but I don't state it as evidence that the game necessarily sucks. Just that I find the controls really awkward.
Of course, you on the other hand claimed such inability to play in a certain way was a fact. All to defend your precious fanboy reasons for saying that the iPhone, or iPod Touch, whatever, is a gaming system.
Oh, and I especially laugh at "You can always tell who's using traditional controls in an online racer because they keep zig-zagging around corners. They can't do a steady turn, etc." I can do those turns just fine without a steering wheel in Forza 3, thanks for assuming.
Wow, a triple post.
The fanboy effect is in full force.
Hey, if you love gaming on it, I'm all for anything that makes gaming more mainstream. it's also a good place for small/startup developers. But do I want major developers to waste time with it? Hell no.
The fanboy effect is in full force.
Hey, if you love gaming on it, I'm all for anything that makes gaming more mainstream. it's also a good place for small/startup developers. But do I want major developers to waste time with it? Hell no.
For a Phone that IS a hand held console.. please check out the..
It's the same with any Android phone, except most are touch screen
It has buttons, and also you can download..
GBA
SNES
and many other.. (A PSone emulator is in production)
Emulators for the phone.
Great for a GBA at all times with you.. and did i mention, free games obviously
It's the same with any Android phone, except most are touch screen
It has buttons, and also you can download..
GBA
SNES
and many other.. (A PSone emulator is in production)
Emulators for the phone.
Great for a GBA at all times with you.. and did i mention, free games obviously
Because the iPod touch is as much a video game console as my cheap cellphone is a supercomputer? Was never meant to be a gaming platform, never will be. Why would it?
RAKtheUndead said:What I was going for was that the DS has games with inferior graphics quality, but far superior battery life - the Game Boy in the equation - while the iPod Touch is capable of technically superior graphics, but at the expense of not being able to play them for as long. Except that the Game Gear didn't sell out as quickly to vapid puzzle games and shovelware.migo said:
Then you've missed the point. Before the iPod Touch, name a famous game for Apple products that wasn't available for other platforms. I can think of only a few, most of them produced by the same company, which exist - a far cry from the console market and especially so from the PC.migo said:
I once again ask the same question. Apple has not previously made a big splash in the gaming world, and you underestimate the importance of this. When Microsoft made the original Xbox, they actually had experience in the gaming market beforehand, and it was still a financial flop, thanks to Microsoft's loss-leader tactics. Why should we expect a company with limited experience, let alone success, at working with any sort of video games to suddenly create a gaming platform worth recognition?migo said:
I don't know about you, but the N-Gage seemed more sorted for games than the iPhone does, although it's obvious that the N-Gage was compromised heavily in design and interface. It's irrelevant for this discussion, but I will also point out that the N-Gage was capable of true, fully-capable pre-emptive multitasking, something that iOS is incapable of without hacks several years later.migo said:
In your opinion. I feel that the examples you've outlined have some rather striking inherent problems. Let's take your driving sim comment, with GT Racing compared to Gran Turismo. Yes, the tilt functionality may give a moderately more immersive feel than using D-Pads or analogue sticks, but you know, I'm pretty sure that my whole dashboard doesn't rotate when I turn the steering wheel in my own car. I don't want to have to completely change my perspective when I end up coming to Station Hairpin at Monaco. Immersion, window, chucked out of.migo said:
I'm guessing that the acceleration and braking is controlled by the tilt functionality as well. That would be a big mistake. Considering how much of car racing relies on proper use of the accelerator and brake in order to properly take turns without sliding out thanks to centripetal force, I quite appreciate having separate analogue controls for the accelerator and brake.
As for the comment about oversteer, well, I know it isn't realistic to do so, but wouldn't you logically set up your car in order to counteract that oversteer and take a better line through the corner? If you're serious enough about your driving sims to compare them, surely that will have come logically to you? Personally, I think I'll stick to my PC racing simulators, with my force feedback steering wheel and my perspective that doesn't have to be completely shifted every time I turn a hairpin.
I picked it specifically because it was raved about, I have experience with it on a lot of different platforms, and because while I agree with John Carmack's stance on open-source software, I disagree with his stance on the iPhone and iPod Touch.migo said:
You underrate the importance of tactile feedback. The iPhone/iPod Touch has none, and doesn't even have supplementary haptic feedback to compensate. How am I meant to tell when something is meant to be happening from the feel of touchscreen, rather than the more authoritative feel of a D-Pad or analogue stick? Considering that FPSes regularly rely on very fine movements, I'd rather have a potentially awkward D-Pad that I don't have to look at than a movable virtual directional pad from which I can't feel a thing.migo said:
I don't see where my logic is narrow or faulty when I suggest that first-person shooters are at least compromised on the PlayStation 3 - you'd have a very hard time playing something like ARMA 2 on it, with engagement ranges sometimes exceeding five hundred metres. I also don't see where my logic would be narrow or faulty to suggest that micromanagement of units - which is very important in a game like StarCraft 2 - is decidedly more difficult on the 3DS than it would be on a PC. In both of these cases, while it is possible to play said games on each platform, they suffer too many compromises to be as complete as the parent platform of the FPS and the RTS.migo said:
In the case of the iPod Touch, the advantages of the platform seem to be either in genres which I tend to avoid - my "casual/time-wasting" game is NetHack, of all games - or where I'd much rather use a keyboard and mouse or some sort of PC gaming peripheral which has some sort of tactile feedback.
The points regarding games are the important parts; the thread that I copy-and-pasted from was my own 8,000-word critique of the iPhone, and as the iPod Touch shares the same general platform as the iPhone, any criticisms regarding games can be transferred over. I wouldn't have an iPod Touch myself, but as a media player and for some limited applications, it isn't terrible. Hardly what I'd call an appropriate gaming device, though.migo said:
Flight games are meant to be controlled using a joystick - a proper full-sized peripheral joystick. An example would be my own Logitech Extreme 3D Pro [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.83541-Logitech-Extreme-3D-Pro-Joystick-A-Technological-Review] USB joystick for my PC, which may be entry-level as regards PC joysticks, but gets the job done.migo said:
I predominantly play PC racing simulators now as well, ones which I control using a force-feedback steering wheel. Again, my peripheral is entry-level, but has a control schema which blows any tilt functionality out of the water. Neither of these devices is portable, but I'd rather have proper games in these genres, where accurate detail is key, tethered to my desktop than compromised ones on a mobile device. I don't think my lap times are all that compromised in the few console racing sims that I do play by using the D-Pad rather than tilt controls; automotive racing can rely as much on the proper application of the accelerator as it does on the steering when it comes to making turns, and any game that doesn't model that isn't a proper racing sim.
It's funny how you keep on banging on about racing sims to make your point, considering that you're arguing with somebody who has played a fair few of them:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.68689-Gran-Turismo-A-Retrospective-Review
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.196466-Volvo-The-Game-A-Comprehensive-Gaming-Review-by-RAK
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.73185-Grand-Prix-Legends-A-Retrospective-Review
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/5588-Review-GTR-Evolution
By the way, I can also use stupid demotivators to make my point as well:
Instead of all this anger, can we just acknowledge that the iPod Touch/iPhone/iPad in terms of gaming is largely a matter of preference? I personally don't like WASD, but RAK evidently thinks it's best. For him, it is. While it does take some getting used to, I found I was able to pull of headshots fairly effectively in "Battle bears". Although, that game doesn't require movement.
And it's similar to the PSP in a way, shooters control oddly, but platformers and strategy games work wonderfully.
I don't really want to get involved in this argument, but someone's gonna get modded if it keeps up.
This is exactly what I was thinking. My phone from 2001 could play games, why wasn't it considered a hand held gaming console?ShadowsofHope said:
IPod touch is primarily a music player. Being able to play a game on it doesn't make it a hand held gamine console. Just like playing mp3s doesn't make the PSP an mp3 player, because it's primarily a gaming console.(By that I mean you'll never find the PSP in the mp3 player section of an electronics store. You'll never find the IPod touch in the gaming section.)
What about the dedicated C64 Gaming System? That's rather analogous to the original C64 being the iPhone and the C64GS being the iPod touch. A lot of the more functionality based apps for iOS rely on a constant data connection, GPS or camera. The lions share of apps that really don't rely on any of those hardware features are games.manythings said:
The iPod line and iPod touch line are quite different. Apple went a bit weird with their naming (iPad certainly wasn't the best name either), but I guess that certainly does explain it. If the name suggests it's an mp3 player, anyone looking for a game system would entirely overlook it.