Why Dragon Age II Should Have Been a New IP

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DanielDeFig

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Haakong said:
I agree it shouldnt have been called dragon age 2, but instead dragon age:"insert fitting one-word to describe Hawke's adventure".

It is in the dragon age world, but its not a sequel.
Agreed. Sometimes it's the same character(s), sometimes it's not, but the gaming industry is full of games from the same "universe", and gamers love them. But the moment the industry gets smart and stops using numbers, and instead titles with subtitles to describe a specific game within a larger world of interconnecting games, then it will bet a lot less confusing (and they will be forced to get a little more creative. If the most descriptive subtitle for your game is simply a number higher than the last, maybe you shouldn't be making it)
 

Sjakie

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I agree with Krantos and Haakong, for the most parts anyway.

Haakong said:
I agree it shouldnt have been called dragon age 2, but instead dragon age:"insert fitting one-word to describe Hawke's adventure".

It is in the dragon age world, but its not a sequel.

Other than that, all dragon age 2 critisism is just QQ. Buy the game or dont buy it, not hard. Best ones so far is the ones saying bioware betrayed em. Makes me laugh every time.

"omg, microsoft betrayed us because of vista!" see how stupid it sounds? They might have given a product that in your eyes are flawed, but thats it. They got no obligation to you at all.
It's the same to me as The Elder Scroll games are handled for the most part: They have all stand alone titles, like 'Morrowind' and 'Oblivion'. Sure they have their respective numbers slapped on (resp. 3 and 4 ofc) but they are certanly not sequels to daggerfall (or prequels of Skyrim) They stand alone. As should DA2 like Haakong says.

The 'Then don't buy it' argument hardly applies though: you cant really form a complete opinion from the demo which only featured a bit of (good looking) combat...or did you suggest pirating before buying? ;-p

p.s. I AM calling the changes in DA2 bad, but only because i was looking forward to more of what Origins had to offer. Ofcourse i would feel a bit 'ripped off' because Bioware now lured me in with good looking combat and the expectations that rose because of the predecessor....not telling me that they threw out lots of nice things from the 1st game.
It's a much simpler game now and i prefer depth in RPG's.
 

Krantos

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DanielDeFig said:
Lore. You dismiss it too quickly, it's the main reason why they made it a sequel. From the moment you finish Origins, it's clear from the epilogue that the developers hope to continue the story of what happens in Ferelden, and at the epilogue of Awakening, it's clear that they want to expand to somewhere else in Tyria. The choices and effects your characters had on the world can be imported from DA:O, but even if you don't do so you have the chance to explore more of the world and the lore of Dragon Age.

Krantos said:
My argument was that the other elements are so drastically different that it should have a new setting. My statement about the world was there to say that the setting was not distinct enough that changing the names of things would change the experience or story.
For the same reason i play Kingdom Hearts on significantly different platforms (and usually with drastically different mechanics, like Chain of Memories and 358/2 Days) and swallow anything with the Star Wars label that piques my interest, i will buy Dragon Age 2. I have experienced Star Wars through just about every conceivable medium (And in gaming, throughout several different genres), including novels and videogames. I do it because i want to expand my experience of what can be done with the fictional Star Wars galaxy.


Your argument is that DA2 should have been a new IP because the game was so drastically different from DA:O, and the world in itself is so generic that it wouldn't make a difference if it was a different world.
So what? Star Wars started out as: young farmer boy meets mystical mentor and teach him about his powers, so he can go save a princess and "fulfill his destiny" by destroying the evil oppressors (how many times hadn't that been done?). But with the survival of Darth Vader and the Empire as a whole, we knew there must be more to it. And there was! A ton of new stuff. It turns out Lucas had actually started the story with this premise: War hero succumbs to his own darkness, but his twin children grow up to oppose him and ultimately save him from himself.

My point here is that you shouldn't dismiss DA just because its "another medieval fantasy", because for once the people who created the world actually care about it and are willing to use it to create interesting personal, political, and legendary stories within this world. And the point about how drastically different the game is not only irrelevant (as i explained above how method is irrelevant to presenting the same lore), but somewhat false. Yes, major changes were made, but they changes to areas of the game that could use improvement. But at the end of the day it still FEELS like Dragon Age, because that's what the developers wanted to create, despite the changes. (I have only played the demo, if the experience in this respect is significantly different in th full game, then i'm sorry but i wouldn't know. I highly doubt it though)
I can certainly see where you're coming from here. However, there are a lot of things called Star Wars that I don't believe deserve the name. *cough*prequels*cough*.

Also, I think I've more or less changed my view to this:
Haakong said:
I agree it shouldnt have been called dragon age 2, but instead dragon age:"insert fitting one-word to describe Hawke's adventure".

It is in the dragon age world, but its not a sequel.
I can see maintaining and adapting the world, but to call it a sequel to Origins is extremely misleading given how much it really does and does not resemble the first.
 

Mushroom 118i

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bushwhacker2k said:
One thing I do agree with is that the character design seemed radically different, why is Flemeth COMPLETELY different from Flemeth from origins? Does she need to accessorize for each encounter like a guy in a turn-based game with too much gear? The only reason I bought that she was Flemeth was the voice and personality, but I'm onto you, Flemeth, now I know there are more than one.
Its the whole framed narrative deal they've got going on. The whole story is being told from the perspective of Varric, but he wasn't there when Flemeth showed up, so we get his interpretation of what a witch of the wilds is like, rather than how she actually appeared.
 

Clive Howlitzer

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I must be the only one who doesn't get too attached to games and get mad when developers make changes. I don't feel like playing the same game twice. I'll admit that there are a bunch of things in Dragon Age 2 I could nitpick the hell out of.
However, it also improved on a bunch of stuff from DAO, I felt. All in all, pretty enjoyable so far ( at 10 hours in).
I know people get really mad when you start taking the RPG out of their game. I saw the same lashing from Mass Effect fans about the second game. I think it can go either ways. Its too bad they can't streamline a lot of the frustrating RPG micromanaging without dumbing the game down too much.
Dragon Age 2 is way easier than DAO too, I had to crank it to hard already.
 

timlobb

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New gameplay is not the reason you create a new IP. You create a new IP if you have another story you want to tell. Bioware are continuing to tell the same story, but in a different way. The gameplay has changed; surely that is the end of it?

You can argue that these gameplay mechanics are worse, you can argue that they should have stuck to the old art design, the old dialogue system, the old province in Ferelden; but arguing that the whole backstory should change because the combat, art and characters do is a tough row to hoe.

The gameplay between, say, Warcraft and World of Warcraft is radically different, but they still tell the same story, take place in the same world etc. (Maybe you can argue that the IP has changed slightly, I'm not a lawyer.) I don't think anyone could that World of Warcraft would have been any more successful if Blizzard had taken the gameplay from WoW (exact same mechanics) and stuck it in a completely new world with completely new lore.
Hopefully the analogy fits.
 

OniaPL

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6 more hours and I can play it too...

Honestly, when I first saw all the changes, I was a little afraid. Mass Effect dialogue wheel, new character, darkspawn aren't even recognizable, etc. etc. I was scared, because I was a huge Origins fan. And when I say huge, I mean HUGE. At first, I thought that maybe Dragon Age 2 won't be for me. But, I fell into Biowares trap... I loved Origins so much, that if there is even the slightest chance that Dragon Age 2 would be as good, I would buy it just to see for myself.

I remain scared but optimistic.
 

Knight Templar

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Sorry to ruin this thing you have going but Dragon Age is about the setting. That you find aspects of the setting unoriginal doesn't matter. Personally I find the setting to be the best part, people often talk about how generic DA:O is but you are exaggerating more than a little. Is it similar to other settings of the genre? Yes, but "similar" is not "same", else all things are unoriginal because some part of them is similar to some part of a different text.
Gameplay is not what defines an IP, you can change the gameplay as you want but for the setting to matter it needs to be stable and defined.
 

OptimisticPessimist

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Thank you. You said it far better than I could have. I think I might still trust Bioware and get the game, but I'm not optimistic about it.
 

DanielDeFig

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Krantos said:
I can certainly see where you're coming from here. However, there are a lot of things called Star Wars that I don't believe deserve the name. *cough*prequels*cough*.

Also, I think I've more or less changed my view to this:
Haakong said:
I agree it shouldnt have been called dragon age 2, but instead dragon age:"insert fitting one-word to describe Hawke's adventure".

It is in the dragon age world, but its not a sequel.
I can see maintaining and adapting the world, but to call it a sequel to Origins is extremely misleading given how much it really does and does not resemble the first.
I have already quoted and agreed with Haakong, games should stop slapping "big ol' twos" on games just because they're from the same universe, especially if the new game tackles something significantly different from a previous game within the same universe.

And i have to mention that from the moment i heard "Dragon Age II", i was hurt and infuriated. By naming their first game Dragon Age: Origins, its the only game i can think of that not only puts in a hope/expectation to continue making more games within the same world, but they prepared for it by using both a title and a subtitle in the very first game. I was expecting all new Dragon Age games to be named Dragon Age: [insert subtitle relevant to game], but instead of naming the next game Dragon Age: Champion of Kirkwall they completely removed the subtitle and instead just put a two there instead. Still pisses me off, but not enough to not buy the game.

I understand that this is to get people to understand that the game is in the same world as the first game, but subtitles do the same without having to use uncreative numbers. What kind of people do they think they are aiming at? People new to gaming who think: "Hey! That game has a number after the title! That must mean that a previous game set in the same world was commercially successful enough to fund a new and obviously better sequel, despite that rarely being true for movies." I doubt there are enough people like that, for the gaming industry to lose money by abandoning numbers in favor of subtitles (games tend to have far more products within the same "universe" than movies, and across more timelines, so it would be much less confusing).
 

Bobbity

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/edit
Okay, you changed your view about not being able to release different types of games under the same ip, and made everything I wrote null. Thanks :p

Anyways, I did actually agree with you on some of what you said, I was just too infuriated to show it.
 

Legion

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Does that mean Halo Reach should be a new IP? After all, you are in a place not seen in the other Halo games, you are a different character and don't even see most of the main characters in the other games.

In Dragon Age 2 there are at least five returning characters from it's prequel, and it takes place in the same world.

Perhaps 'Dragon Age: The Champion' would have been more appropriate, but it is still Dragon Age.

pezwitch said:
Now take a look at the darkspawn from DA:O and the darkspawn from the DA2 demo. Take a look at Isabela from DA:O and Isabela from DA2. Now, Flemith. There is less than two years between DA:O and DA2 and the changes are very jarring.
What about them? All the differences are purely visual.

DarkSpawn have been made to look less like orcs.
Isabela has simply become more shapely.
Flemeth is a shape-shifter.

The only changes are the graphics engines and the modelling. The characters are still the same.

I think every single player of Bioware games needs to watch this:


I mean seriously, there are bigger things in the world to worry about.
 

AVATAR_RAGE

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Saelune said:
Know why its a sequal and not a new IP? Same world. The Elder Scroll games are all sequals, because it continues the story of Tamriel. The hero of Arena is seperate from Daggerfall, from Morrowind, from Oblivion, from Skyrim, but it all affects the same world, hence they are sequals of eachother.
Dragon Age 2 shows a different part of events in the Dragon Age world.
Yep what this guy said, Bioware announced from the beginning that they wanted the Dragon Age series to be a long running one set accross a 100 year time span.

This means they can tell multiple stories without creating a new world each time.

My only complaint about the game in the IP department would be the title, what about Dragon Age: Champion of Kirkwall, or Dragon Age: Tale of a Champion?
 

Wapox

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Eldarion said:
That and, this new guy has his own name. So its always gonna feel like bioware's character, not mine.
Uhm.. in DA:O The last name was also fixed to the character, albeit based on the chosen origin but still... Hawke is the last name of the character and his/her family... just saying.
 

Spencer Petersen

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timlobb said:
The gameplay between, say, Warcraft and World of Warcraft is radically different, but they still tell the same story, take place in the same world etc. (Maybe you can argue that the IP has changed slightly, I'm not a lawyer.) I don't think anyone could that World of Warcraft would have been any more successful if Blizzard had taken the gameplay from WoW (exact same mechanics) and stuck it in a completely new world with completely new lore.
Hopefully the analogy fits.
Well the problem is that while WOW and WC3 have altered gameplay, the art style, characters, lore, and continuity all remains intact. People and enemies in DA:O and DA2 look completely different. Weaponry and armor look different. Spell and combat look and play different. The art style is different. If WoW removed all familiarity with the original Warcraft barring plot I don't think setting would have made a difference.

The problem I think arises from the gaming communities own misguided banter that "sequels are inherently bad." Sequels offer a great opportunity to refine and polish an idea in the forge of real life, without nearly the risk involved with a blind dive into new genre. Sequels among video games have been noticeably better when compared to originals, for the sole reason of refinement. When you buy a game, you are essentially rewarding the developer for making a product that encompasses many things you enjoy. The developer sees that the game sells well, and returns the favor by producing products with similar characteristics.

Say for example you liked Final Fantasy 7, with its turn based combat, futuristic-steampunk setting, anime style characters and gorgeous visuals, you can reasonably expect that the next Final Fantasy game will feature similar characteristics that you enjoy. Maybe a different setting, maybe different art style, maybe different characters, ya know, something to shake it up. But in this case, its like setting FF8 on the other side of the world from FF7, changing gameplay to FPS, setting it in medieval gothic settings, changing the characters to western animation style and make everything appear dark and gritty, all while continuing to reference the events in characters from FF7. Many would like it, as the plot was maybe what they enjoyed most, but for many it will feel like the developer is rewarding their customer loyalty by abandoning them in search of another audience.

Essentially, if you liked a lot of things from DA:O like the multiple origins, extensive dialogue, number-driven combat and familiar fantasy setting, and were looking for a sequel that kept all that intact with more polish and features, you're shit out of luck.

The developer rewarded your buying of the collectors editions, financing through DLC, feedback and praise with abandonment, forgetting that you are the reason why the first title made any money. Fans are what make the games into franchises, companies have an obligation to at least try to reward fans with games they enjoy.

But if you are a hemophiliac and really liked the oceans of blood that seemed to spurt out of every available orifice like in DA:O, your in luck.
 

seditary

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Krantos said:
I can see maintaining and adapting the world, but to call it a sequel to Origins is extremely misleading given how much it really does and does not resemble the first.
Its not a sequel to Origins. You noticed that it's called Dragon Age 2, not Dragon Age: Origins 2?

Bloody hell people.
 

Trolldor

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Krantos said:
As we all know, the game industry has a bad habit of making sequels rather than introducing new IP?s, but it?s rare that a game comes along that would have truly done better as a new IP. Dragon Age II is one such game.

The question people always ask me is ?Why would BioWare have made it a separate IP??

In order to answer that, you have to look at why a company makes a game a sequel to begin with. Not actually being a part of the game industry I don?t have the inside knowledge on this (I?d love to see Extra Credits do a video on this), but, logically speaking, these are the reasons I can see for making a game into a sequel:

1. To continue developing the story/characters/setting of the first game.
2. To draw in sales from those who liked the first game.

So number one is out when it comes to Dragon Age II. The game features a single returning party member from the first game?s expansion; the story is only tangentially related to the first; and it takes place in completely different part of the world.

It can be argued that the world itself is what the developers wanted to explore further, but that doesn?t hold up. Take any element from Dragon Age?s world and I guarantee it (or at least something incredibly similar) appears in at least a dozen other fantasy stories. Origins was many things, original is not one of them. The game could easily be set in a different world, have all the same basic elements and lose nothing in the transition.

The arguments for new IP are even more compelling when you look at those elements that returned from the Origins. Several characters make reappearances but their designs have been changed so drastically you would never know who they are if the game didn?t tell you. When I saw Flemeth in the demo, my jaw literally hit the ground. Then there are the darkspawn, which make a reappearance as well but have also been radically redesigned (and where are the Genlocks?).

When the only returning elements from the first game in no way resemble themselves, it?s hard to justify calling it a sequel.

In an attempt to wrap this up, other things that were changed to the point of being unrecognizable include: combat, talent trees, dialogue system, weapons and armor styles, etc.

Thus, number two on my list falls flat on its face. I understand that BioWare wanted to produce a more console friendly game and direct it to people who didn?t quite like the first. I get that, and such a thing can be done and done well.

Dragon Age II doesn?t do that.

In order for that approach to work, you can?t alienate those that liked the first game. Otherwise, they?re going to do what fans of Origins are doing, namely, raise a fuss and boycott the sequel. Origins produced a wealth of loyal fans. Those should have been guaranteed sales for the sequel. Instead the game was changed so radically that everything they enjoyed about the first had been stripped away. This produced outrage and boycotting.

This could have been avoided with a new IP. With a new IP, fans of Origins wouldn?t have anything to complain about, because it didn?t touch the franchise. So, instead of boycotting it out of a sense of betrayal, they?d have pre-ordered it because, hell, it was a new IP from BioWare. That used to be an instant sell for tons of gamers.

There was simply no reason to tack the Dragon Age title onto Dragon Age II. The story would have lost nothing transitioning to a new world. It would have saved all those sales from fans of Origins, and it would have left the door open for a more faithful sequel that would have benefitted from the increased attention this game garnered from the console market. By releasing it as ?Dragon Age II,? BioWare lost sales and a sizable portion of its fan base. A shame since a simple renaming could have prevented it.

TL;DR just read the last paragraph. :p Then, if you have arguments to make, read the rest first, because I probably already addressed a lot of the obvious ones.
It is TL;DR

The whole point of DA:II was to establish that 'Dragon Age' was about a world, an age, and not about the Wardens and the Blight.
 

Crumpster

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seditary said:
Krantos said:
I can see maintaining and adapting the world, but to call it a sequel to Origins is extremely misleading given how much it really does and does not resemble the first.
Its not a sequel to Origins. You noticed that it's called Dragon Age 2, not Dragon Age: Origins 2?

Bloody hell people.
I believe we have a winner of the most irrelevant argument in 2011 so far.