Why Heavy Rain is a good game and Final Fantasy 13 isn't - a compare (Mild spoilers)

[GamesGibbon]

Your points on both games are valid enough, but coloured by your opinion. I enjoyed FFXIII, despite its flaws, as I enjoyed Heavy Rain, despite its flaws.

FFXIII's biggest problems are also its greatest strengths. Directed storytelling can be good, as Squaresoft learned in FFIX and FFX, but they went too far in FFXIII, making all the encounters, your characters and their strength and abilities guaranteed to be at a certain level at a certain point. There is no going through the game and power leveling, or struggling to go through with a minimal amount of leveling - the former is prevented by level caps and the latter by the fact you'd die without leveling. This provides tightly balanced and enjoyable combat in the first play through but no re-playability.

Heavy Rain made me happy, sad, angry, disappointed and much more... particularly the last two in my second play through. The game is a clever deception, a linear happening of events portrayed in such a way as to make you believe you do have a choice, when in fact you cannot effect the plot all that much. You can't refuse to do the bear trial, you can't affect the "Sexy Girl" scene in any way, you can't get Scott killed, and worst of all, failing all of Ethan's trials doesn't change the game in any substantial way. You'd think the angsty bastard would sink into despair and off himself, but nope, nothing like that. Ultimately, Heavy Rain was advertised on choice, and it was all a clever deception. That pisses me off.

TL;DR - Final Fantasy XIII and Heavy Rain are both deeply flawed. Heavy Rain's highs were higher, but so are its lows. Either way, I'm pretty much guaranteed to buy a sequel to either game.

Huge Heavy rain spoilers.

Spoiler

You're a bit wrong about Heavy Rains endings here.. while its true Scott can't die (For obvious reasons if you have completed it) There are at least 3 endings where Ethan shoots or hangs himself.. so I think there is enough variety.

 

[GamesGibbon]

Well, I can't comment on FF13 cause I've never played it. However, Heavy Rain suffers from some pretty large plot holes. For example, those 'blackouts' Ethan has frequently at the beginning of the game for seemingly no reason, they never really explain these, nor do they explain why they don't happen again after your son is kidnapped.

Haven't played the game; are those blackouts limited to Ethan or the whole storytelling of the game? Because if it's the latter, it could simply be because something is implied as happening and you're supposed to make that assumption as a player (something movies do to not use up their whole time on meaningless stuff).

No - he does have these blackouts that are weirdly forgotten. I didn't mention them because its a pretty big spoiler really. In my defence I admitted several times Heavy rain is not perfect and has some 'strange' plot points.

I heard a rumour their plan was to flesh this stuff out via DLC like they did with Madison and the 'ferocious enemy' ending that isn't explained in the main game.

 

[D_987]

I agree that they are totally different - one is good and one is bad. Thats the only real comparison I am making.

I love the logic. Perhaps you've never written a review before? I'd suggest you go ahead and read the stickied threads at the top; they'd inform you this section isn't designed to be filled with threads claiming "this game is bad whilst this is good"; it's meant to be used as a forum to inform peoples choices - and that means objectivity - and no game is objectivly good or bad; sure you're meant to add your own opinion in there, but the way this is written isn't what this board is for.

 

[Flamezdudes]

Oh come on, i'm on Chapter 10 now of Final Fantasy 13 and i cannot understand people's problems with it. It's one of my favourite FF games to date, its brilliant.

 

[GamesGibbon]

I agree that they are totally different - one is good and one is bad. Thats the only real comparison I am making.

I love the logic. Perhaps you've never written a review before? I'd suggest you go ahead and read the stickied threads at the top; they'd inform you this section isn't designed to be filled with threads claiming "this game is bad whilst this is good"; it's meant to be used as a forum to inform peoples choices - and that means objectivity - and no game is objectivly good or bad; sure you're meant to add your own opinion in there, but the way this is written isn't what this board is for.

Reviews and their styles are completely subjective by nature. All I can do is give my honest appraisal on why more games should be like Heavy Rain and less like Final Fantasy 13. People can read my opinion which is based on what I personally find important to a gaming experience and then make a choice between agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.

Obviously looking at your Xbox profile where your last played games list includes Bayonetta, Nier, Resenance of Fate, Magnacarta 2, The last Remnant, Final Fantasy 13, Tales of Vesperia and Eternal Sonata you are always going to disagree with me. so it would appear you have just as much of a problem with remaining unbiased as I do.

Oh and, yes I do write reviews on a regular basis and yes I did read the stickies, but nice attempt at patronization anyway.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

Played both and disliked both. I will agree though that Heavy Rain was better than Final Fantasy XIII. Heavy Rain's plot was easily figured out. The characters failed to endear me because of the fact that the game took place in the center of the uncanny valley. The controls were just as bad as the controls of the original Resident Evil games outside of the quick-time events. The rest of the gameplay was quick time events which I have no problem with if they are used in moderation. I look at Heavy Rain the same way I look at Mirror's Edge; an experiment in gaming. It was refreshing to see something new and different even if it did end up failing.

Final Fantasy XIII got everything wrong. Perhaps it was done intentionally as a, how not to make a Final Fantasy game type of thing but if that is so, than screw you Square-Soft for the $60 joke. My biggest problem is the lack of Fantasy of course, they couldn't have gotten away with calling the game Final Science-Fiction XIII as there are no FSF's 1-12. I say there is no Fantasy because there is none. A majority of the enemies are robotic or human. Other than those you fight animals. Even the Gods and Eidelons are robotic (The Eidelons are actually more like Transformers only you have to beat them up before they are loyal to you) All of the party members are human as well. Forget calling them Le-Cie, they are all human...except perhaps Vanille. While FFXIII does have Chocobos, Cid and, Odin; it has very little else. No Moogles, Towns or, useful items (other than the battle-buffing super spray)

I should mention now that ever though I didn't like the Heavy Rain characters, I disliked the FF characters more. Quina of Final Fantasy IX outshines all of them easily.

 

[Gasaraki]

Final Fantasy XIII was such a huge letdown. I was so excited for it, since I'd gotten an xbox instead of a ps2 the only FF games I'd played were the PC ones and the DS ones, and having just replayed FFIII for ds my expectations for FFXIII were huge.

So then I get 13, play it for about 30 hours and then I stop and think to myself: I haven't even been playing this, I've been pressing A and waiting for the next cutscene. What's the point? I could just watch Advent Children again...
I haven't touched it since.

Seriously though, is it just me or have Jrpgs been getting worse? These days the only jrpgs I can really enjoy are ports and remakes of old ones.
Chrono Trigger FTW!

 

[D_987]

Reviews and their styles are completely subjective by nature. All I can do is give my honest appraisal on why more games should be like Heavy Rain and less like Final Fantasy 13. People can read my opinion which is based on what I personally find important to a gaming experience and then make a choice between agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.

Not really, because you don't describe the game in any detail, hence why I said you don't properly review the games; you just discuss the certain areas that relate to each game and how those areas are compared to one another, which isn't the right way to do something like this.

Furthermore, this "comparison" is heavily flawed due to the different audiences both games are going for. Comparing the two lead males in both games, for example, is foolish at best simply because it's entirely down to your own personal bias in what you want from a character that makes them good or bad in your eyes. It's not like this is even a particularly good comparison, that at least would have included something other that complete opinion, but this isn't even a review, it's a poorly disguised versus thread in the wrong forum...

Obviously looking at your Xbox profile where your last played games list includes Bayonetta, Nier, Resenance of Fate, Magnacarta 2, The last Remnant, Final Fantasy 13, Tales of Vesperia and Eternal Sonata you are always going to disagree with me. so it would appear you have just as much of a problem with remaining unbiased as I do.

What exactly does that have to do with anything? I like JRPG's so that must mean I'm saying you can't claim one is a bad game? Considering I hadn't even mentioned anything to do with your comments I'm just going to assume this paragraph is you trolling...

I also played Gears of War, Mass Effect and Grand Theft Auto - does that mean my comments are suddenly worth more?

 

[Blue Musician]

snip

Welcome to the Escapist! And it's your first thread. It's a good one too. Anyways, I guess he's comparing them because they both have VERY long cinematics (or in the case of HR, cinema fest), but in HR they were better used.

 

[GamesGibbon]

Not really, because you don't describe the game in any detail, hence why I said you don't properly review the games; you just discuss the certain areas that relate to each game and how those areas are compared to one another, which isn't the right way to do something like this.

Furthermore, this "comparison" is heavily flawed due to the different audiences both games are going for. Comparing the two lead males in both games, for example, is foolish at best simply because it's entirely down to your own personal bias in what you want from a character that makes them good or bad in your eyes. It's not like this is even a particularly good comparison, that at least would have included something other that complete opinion, but this isn't even a review, it's a poorly disguised versus thread in the wrong forum...

I was only writing 1,000 words about 2 games. I'm not going to go into intricate technical details that I'm not interested in. What do you want from a review? A totally unbiased dispassionate list of facts and statistics? Find me a single review that is and won't bore someone to death and I'll award you a medal.

You seem to think that because my opinion is different to yours I must somehow be wrong. Maybe I am but thats up to other people to decide in their own minds. You disagree with me and you don't like the format, thats fine, I can handle it.

What exactly does that have to do with anything? I like JRPG's so that must mean I'm saying you can't claim one is a bad game? Considering I hadn't even mentioned anything to do with your comments I'm just going to assume this paragraph is you trolling...

I also played Gears of War, Mass Effect and Grand Theft Auto - does that mean my comments are suddenly worth more?

My point is you are a massive fan of this game and the genre so you are naturally going to defend it. I suspect if I had written glowing praise for Final Fantasy you wouldn't be in here talking about 'irrelevant comparison' and 'opinion'.

Well I sure hope they're more detailed, relevant and better presented than this review...

Go read them on my new blog if you actually care.

 

[D_987]

I was only writing 1,000 words about 2 games. I'm not going to go into intricate technical details that I'm not interested in. What do you want from a review? A totally unbiased dispassionate list of facts and statistics? Find me a single review that is and won't bore someone to death and I'll award you a medal.

You're not really seeing the point. though you just admitted it yourself; within 1000 words you're not able to review the game, so why review two games that have nothing to do with each other in the first place? As in your compare the art style (though you claim you mean graphics, which you don't), and argue one is better because "it's more realistic", I mean how is that in anything other than complete opinion - you don't even describe the various art differences; you just state one is better.

You seem to think that because my opinion is different to yours I must somehow be wrong. Maybe I am but thats up to other people to decide in their own minds. You disagree with me and you don't like the format, thats fine, I can handle it.

Incorrect, I haven't even stated my opinion on the matter; you've made your own mind up on my opinion on the games - I'm discussing why this doesn't belong in the user reviews section - because it's not a review...

My point is you are a massive fan of this game and the genre so you are naturally going to defend it. I suspect if I had written glowing praise for Final Fantasy you wouldn't be in here talking about 'irrelevant comparison' and 'opinion'.

Incorrect; see above.

 

[GamesGibbon]

You're not really seeing the point. though you just admitted it yourself; within 1000 words you're not able to review the game, so why review two games that have nothing to do with each other in the first place? As in your compare the art style (though you claim you mean graphics, which you don't), and argue one is better because "it's more realistic", I mean how is that in anything other than complete opinion - you don't even describe the various art differences; you just state one is better.

You're arguement that the games are different is irrelevant. You would be right if I had written something along the lines of, ''I don't like the XP system in Final Fantasy and Heavy Rains is better'' because Heavy Rain doesn't have an XP system.

Both games have characters, stories, graphical styles and flaws which are among the things that I was comparing because those are what I personally find most important. if you disagree with me I suggest you avoid my writings in future.

 

[D_987]

Both games have characters, stories, graphical styles and flaws which are among the things that I was comparing because those are what I personally find most important. if you disagree with me I suggest you avoid my writings in future.

You don't compare them though, that's the thing; you just claim one is better than the other because it suits your personal preference; that's not looking at the games objectively and arguing a case, that's (as you have done) claiming one is better than the other because you say so. The art style being a good example; how do you know "realistic graphics are harder to make"? That's your key argument as to why one is objectively better than the other, and it's just not true...

Regardless, I'm done with this debate; it's just going around in circles - I would note that others have posted agreeing with my original post on the matter however.

On a side-note: I don't receive a message letting me know you've quoted me if you don't use the quote button and keep my username and the post details in the quote by the way.

 

[GamesGibbon]

You don't compare them though, that's the thing; you just claim one is better than the other because it suits your personal preference; that's not looking at the games objectively and arguing a case, that's (as you have done) claiming one is better than the other because you say so. The art style being a good example; how do you know "realistic graphics are harder to make"? That's your key argument as to why one is objectively better than the other, and it's just not true...

Regardless, I'm done with this debate; it's just going around in circles - I would note that others have posted agreeing with my original post on the matter however.

On a side-note: I don't receive a message letting me know you've quoted me if you don't use the quote button and keep my username and the post details in the quote by the way.

If I haven't compared them and I haven't reviewed them then what have I done? You can't have it both ways.

My key arguement is one is better in MY opinion and its up to the reader to make up their own mind. Thats the entire point of any form of criticism. Some people like Yahtzee for example and some people don't. Some people here agree with me and some agree with you. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong.

And I'm not using the quote button because you just end up with an enourmas quote singularity.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Yay, let's compare two games that have absolutely nothing to do with each other! And let's not even compare those two games properly, but simply state our thoughts on the matter, therefore creating a review on two games in which we don't properly review either one...

Thats pretty much what i was going to say.

OT: while both are great games i still prefer Final Fantasy XIII. All you have done is stated your opinion on why you think Heavy Rain is better than Final Fantasy XIII.

Everything anyone ever says or writes is an opinion. I'm not sure what your point is exactly?

Case in point here not everything anyone ever says or writes is opinion ergo fact your statement is false as you have written as a fact and it is not a fact. Fact 2+2=4 See what I mean? Secondly you can't compare two games that are in completely it just doesn't work. Third what you have done is just ramble on about your opinions and have not compared them to compare you must be impartial at least in your writing of it. So you have done nothing but just state your opinion on which is a better game which is not comparing them.

 

[D_987]

If I haven't compared them and I haven't reviewed them then what have I done? You can't have it both ways.

You've stated your opinions on them, I thought I already said that?

My key arguement is one is better in MY opinion and its up to the reader to make up their own mind. Thats the entire point of any form of criticism.

But you're not giving them a choice in the matter; you're not writing impartially and giving FFXIII a chance in the readers mind, you just say "this game is shit" and immediately begin saying why you believe Heavy Rain is a better game...you don't give the reader a say in things; therefore you're not giving the reader the chance to "make up their own mind"; and that's not the point of criticism - the point of criticism is to improve things; and you don't suggest how to improve anything in FFXIII in this article, unless you want it to be more like Heavy Rain, of course.

And I'm not using the quote button because you just end up with an enourmas quote singularity.

Huh? Just use the quote button please, it makes it a lot easier for me to tell if you've replied or not.

Side-note: I said I wouldn't reply, but you posed a question in that response...and you made a point different from those made before.

 

[Snowalker]

Yay, let's compare two games that have absolutely nothing to do with each other! And let's not even compare those two games properly, but simply state our thoughts on the matter, therefore creating a review on two games in which we don't properly review either one...

I actually agree with this more than the OP... Of course, I like neither of the games he's "comparing" so, yeah.

 

[andreas3K]

All that ranting and the only thing you said was "I don't like Final Fantasy, I like Heavy Rain."