Why Homosexuality Should be Banned

[DMac the Knife]

Homosexuality is quite common in the natural world in many other species, why should humanity be any different?

Because we're talking about gay rights here, so animals have nothing to do in this discussion. That's like saying: It's unnatural for the human being to fly. And then someone comes up with: "But, birds...".

in what sense, then, can you say that homosexuality is unnatural? you seem to be appealing to a purely subjective standard of human nature.

The point was the naturalistic argument is flawed. Simply because something occurs naturally does not give it any weight in an argument. This is because there are natural things that are considered both good and bad from a human stand point, its not a giant pool of beneficial/good/awesome. The same goes with "unnatural" things, there are both good and bad unnatural things so to state that something is unnatural and thus bad is a fallacious argument. This video argues the correct point against the naturalistic argument, not the most common flawed one.

Also homosexuality can be said to be unnatural as no exclusive in the wild pure homosexual relationships have been observed. To my knowledge at least, I feel its important to point that out as I'm not omnipotent but I'll continue to assume so until I see a credible sources state otherwise (scientific article). People get homosexual activity/behavior and homosexuality confused. The difference is what prevents the dog humping your leg being termed bestiality on the dog's part. They're following gratification for gratification's sake and to compare that with a human homosexual relationship I find demeaning.

As much as I hate to reference wikipedia,it is the easiest way to capture all of the links I would otherwise have to individually post to show that there is plenty of scientific study material to support exclusive same sex pair bonding in animals both in captivity and in the wild. Here goes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

 

[Raskolnikov34]

Because its not conductive to a happy, functioning society. It would completely destroy the institution of marriage

You're going to have to back a claim that extraordinary up. Also, as a person who views marriage as unnecessary and something we may as well get rid of you're going to have to explain how that's necessarily a bad thing (on top of proving it would actually happen).

Gay marriages are almost always unhealthy

How? Source?

they leave the children involved in particular without proper role models,

Gay people can't be proper role models? In what way? When my dad left my (gay) brother was a great role model for me. Or is it the fool notion that people need a mother and a father?

and leads to unhappiness for them later on.

Source?

And, yes, homosexual is completely unnatural

A. In what way?
B. Prove unnatural equals bad.

and is frankly immoral,

According to your morality maybe. I find it hard to condemn the love of two consenting adults as being wicked.

hedonistic behavior.

No more hedonistic than the infertile having sex.

You know, you haven't actually backed up a single thing you said.

1: The unhealthiness of gay marriages: http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02: This gives info on the issue. To sum it up: gays do worse than heterosexual marriages in the following catagories:
-relationship duration
-monogamy vs. promiscuity
-relationship commitment
-number of children being raised
-health risks
-rates of intimate partner violence

2: The children: Statistics for this are conflicting, but I will say that, yes, you can find role models elsewhere, but children do need a mother and father to be raised properly (I'll try to get more info on this later).

3: Unnatural: It clearly goes against basic human nature on a Biological and psychological level. Men are meant to be attracted to women in order to propagate the species. Anything that goes against human nature is obviously wrong.

4: Immoral and Hedonistic: The infertile having sex is hedonistic? No, if there're married its not, there's nothing wrong per say with pleasure. Its when a person ignores basic ethics and morality in order to achieve pleasure, thus making pleasure their ultimate goal, that it becomes hedonism. And according to my morality? There's one, objective morality, personal opinions aside. But I don't want to argue about relativism, if that's what you're putting forward, when that's kind of off topic...maybe a different time.

 

[Raskolnikov34]

Ugh, this video is obnoxious...

I'm anti-homosexual (don't flame me), and I hate the way he basically makes up supposed arguments of anti-homosexual people.

i do not wish to flame you but may i ask why you are anti-homosexual is it because it is not normal or is it fear or is it just that you don't understand it or is it something else for the first no on is "normal" we all have quirks that make us weird (mine include saying BING BONG when i enter my house and eating block cheese with mayo spread on it or saying eh as a type of question mark... yes i'm Canadian) for the second well not much i can say there for the last i can understand it's weird and you have no connection it's like trying to describe colors to a person who has been blind since birth but honestly i'd like to hear why from an anti-homo who actually has manners (and just so you know i'm am straight so you don't need to talk about it in your response if you choose to respond) also if you say it's because it's unnatural well so is a computer and cars and all the other appliances we use on a daily basis and the unnatural claim is the only one i find complete crap (religion is protected cause hey hard to argue with someone you can't talk to aka god)

Why am I anti-gay marriage?

Because its not conductive to a happy, functioning society. It would completely destroy the institution of marriage (something already suffering from the amount of divorces). Gay marriages are almost always unhealthy, they leave the children involved in particular without proper role models, and leads to unhappiness for them later on. And, yes, homosexual is completely unnatural, and is (warning: this may be offensive) frankly immoral, hedonistic behavior. From a biological, ethical, and psychological perspective, it is unnatural behavior that should not accepted by society.


And no, I don't hate or fear homosexuals, I don't support any sort of violence against them. And don't take this as a hate speech, I'm open to debate and seeing your points of view as well.


Here's a website that has some points for and against it (and no, I don't agree with their point about religions): http://www.balancedpolitics.org/same_sex_marriages.htm

would you rather children go with out homes and change home every year or so, from what i have seen when that happens more time then not the kid dose not end up right. and it is natural this is a list of mammals alone that show homosexual behavior. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_displaying_homosexual_behavior#Mammals

Okay, can someone explain this to me? Why do gay animals excuse gay humans? Animals are cannibalistic, kill their young, promiscuous, and seek only to fulfill their base appetites...and we should emulate them...? Isn't man distinguished from animals by his freedom to choose the good? Or are we just animals now?

 

[SarahSyna]

3: Unnatural: It clearly goes against basic human nature on a Biological and psychological level. Men are meant to be attracted to women in order to propagate the species. Anything that goes against human nature is obviously wrong.

4: Immoral and Hedonistic: The infertile having sex is hedonistic? No, if there're married its not, there's nothing wrong per say with pleasure. Its when a person ignores basic ethics and morality in order to achieve pleasure, thus making pleasure their ultimate goal, that it becomes hedonism. And according to my morality? There's one, objective morality, personal opinions aside. But I don't want to argue about relativism, if that's what you're putting forward, when that's kind of off topic...maybe a different time.

It's natural for us to be wandering around naked, living in our own excrement. Are clothes and waste management terrible, evil things too?
It's also human nature to kill, rape, maim. Should we abolish all the laws condemning these?

Except that gay sex isn't just pleasure. It's about love and affection just as much as straight sex. If gay sex is hedonistic, then all sex is.

 

[Raskolnikov34]

3: Unnatural: It clearly goes against basic human nature on a Biological and psychological level. Men are meant to be attracted to women in order to propagate the species. Anything that goes against human nature is obviously wrong.

4: Immoral and Hedonistic: The infertile having sex is hedonistic? No, if there're married its not, there's nothing wrong per say with pleasure. Its when a person ignores basic ethics and morality in order to achieve pleasure, thus making pleasure their ultimate goal, that it becomes hedonism. And according to my morality? There's one, objective morality, personal opinions aside. But I don't want to argue about relativism, if that's what you're putting forward, when that's kind of off topic...maybe a different time.

It's natural for us to be wandering around naked, living in our own excrement. Are clothes and waste management terrible, evil things too?
It's also human nature to kill, rape, maim. Should we abolish all the laws condemning these?

Except that gay sex isn't just pleasure. It's about love and affection just as much as straight sex. If gay sex is hedonistic, then all sex is.

Explain to me why raping, killing, maiming, wandering in our own excrement and being naked are a part of human nature...and I already qualified why gay sex is hedonistic: it ignores basic ethics and morality in pursuit of pleasure; the same could be said for straight sex outside marriage.

 

[ckam]

Aw, that was cute. It was also funny. On another note, I agree with the points.

 

[Baneat]

3: Unnatural: It clearly goes against basic human nature on a Biological and psychological level. Men are meant to be attracted to women in order to propagate the species. Anything that goes against human nature is obviously wrong.

4: Immoral and Hedonistic: The infertile having sex is hedonistic? No, if there're married its not, there's nothing wrong per say with pleasure. Its when a person ignores basic ethics and morality in order to achieve pleasure, thus making pleasure their ultimate goal, that it becomes hedonism. And according to my morality? There's one, objective morality, personal opinions aside. But I don't want to argue about relativism, if that's what you're putting forward, when that's kind of off topic...maybe a different time.

It's natural for us to be wandering around naked, living in our own excrement. Are clothes and waste management terrible, evil things too?
It's also human nature to kill, rape, maim. Should we abolish all the laws condemning these?

Except that gay sex isn't just pleasure. It's about love and affection just as much as straight sex. If gay sex is hedonistic, then all sex is.

And if it is hedonistic, well who the fuck are you anyway? Your objective morality has no reasoning at all behind it. None, it's tautological templar (It's right because it's moral, it's moral because it's right)

Naturality means nothing, but I'll entertain it for the lulz. Humans are natural beings, thus, they can never do anything unnatural.

Explain to me why raping, killing, maiming, wandering in our own excrement and being naked are a part of human nature...and I already qualified why gay sex is hedonistic: it ignores basic ethics and morality in pursuit of pleasure; the same could be said for straight sex outside marriage.

WOAH NELLY basic ethics? I've done far more than my fair share of normative ethical philosophy, and if there was an ethical basis against it, it's most certainly not "basic" or I'd have already observed it.

Your basic ethical (And subjective, don't bullshit me on this) and moral reasoning is? Just expand it, it's easy, apparently, it's basic.

Actually, I'll go into a few basic ones

Sovereignty of Liberty (Evolved Kantian(Nozick etc.)) - It's a right, thus allowed

GHP(Bentham) - Hedonic Principle, allowed
GHP(Mill) - Lower element pleasure - allowed, higher element pleasure, really allowed

Hypothetical imperative (Kant) - Passes with flying colours

Shit we made up because we're uncomfortable - wrong, but if this is convincing then the shit I can make up is equally valid.

They all rely on one assertion, a metaethical one which hasn't been answered, but at least those ones have some fairy strong basis for said assertions.

 

[cobra_ky]

Homosexuality is quite common in the natural world in many other species, why should humanity be any different?

Because we're talking about gay rights here, so animals have nothing to do in this discussion. That's like saying: It's unnatural for the human being to fly. And then someone comes up with: "But, birds...".

in what sense, then, can you say that homosexuality is unnatural? you seem to be appealing to a purely subjective standard of human nature.

he's not. he's telling vault girl that animals have nothing to do with the topic. i think a better way to show the absurdity of the comment is to say there aren't any racoons in the wild dressing like you ain't never seen elton john or lady gaga.

point is there are already animal right laws: don't abuse them. but they're aren't gay right laws (or at least there aren't in select states) so we need to get westboro to die in a hole, or all old people from kansas.

we're specifically discussing the claim that "homosexuality is unnatural". If TheSniperFan doesn't mean that in the biological sense, i'd like to know what he means by "unnatural", that's all.

The point was the naturalistic argument is flawed. Simply because something occurs naturally does not give it any weight in an argument. This is because there are natural things that are considered both good and bad from a human stand point, its not a giant pool of beneficial/good/awesome. The same goes with "unnatural" things, there are both good and bad unnatural things so to state that something is unnatural and thus bad is a fallacious argument. This video argues the correct point against the naturalistic argument, not the most common flawed one.

i'm not making a moral judgment in either direction. i am simply disputing the claim that homosexuality is unnatural.

Also homosexuality can be said to be unnatural as no exclusive in the wild pure homosexual relationships have been observed. To my knowledge at least, I feel its important to point that out as I'm not omnipotent but I'll continue to assume so until I see a credible sources state otherwise (scientific article). People get homosexual activity/behavior and homosexuality confused. The difference is what prevents the dog humping your leg being termed bestiality on the dog's part. They're following gratification for gratification's sake and to compare that with a human homosexual relationship I find demeaning.

for what it's worth, <a href=http://www.genetics.org/content/121/4/773.abstract>here's a scientific article. A specific genetic mutation in fruit flies produces exclusively homosexual mating behavior.

Of course sexual behavior in animals isn't strictly analogous to human sexuality. But that doesn't apply to homosexuality any more than heterosexuality. there's nothing to suggest that heterosexuality is any more "natural" (in a biological sense) than homosexuality is. I don't find the comparison any more demeaning than i do for heterosexual sex.

 

[SarahSyna]

3: Unnatural: It clearly goes against basic human nature on a Biological and psychological level. Men are meant to be attracted to women in order to propagate the species. Anything that goes against human nature is obviously wrong.

4: Immoral and Hedonistic: The infertile having sex is hedonistic? No, if there're married its not, there's nothing wrong per say with pleasure. Its when a person ignores basic ethics and morality in order to achieve pleasure, thus making pleasure their ultimate goal, that it becomes hedonism. And according to my morality? There's one, objective morality, personal opinions aside. But I don't want to argue about relativism, if that's what you're putting forward, when that's kind of off topic...maybe a different time.

It's natural for us to be wandering around naked, living in our own excrement. Are clothes and waste management terrible, evil things too?
It's also human nature to kill, rape, maim. Should we abolish all the laws condemning these?

Except that gay sex isn't just pleasure. It's about love and affection just as much as straight sex. If gay sex is hedonistic, then all sex is.

Explain to me why raping, killing, maiming, wandering in our own excrement and being naked are a part of human nature...and I already qualified why gay sex is hedonistic: it ignores basic ethics and morality in pursuit of pleasure; the same could be said for straight sex outside marriage.

Kindly explain how they are not. Hell, what about just wanting to smack someone in the face when they're nasty or even just annoying?


See, you're using circular logic. According to what you're saying, gay sex is hedonistic because it ignores ethics and morality (please explain how), and it ignores morality because it's hedonistic. And so forth.

 

[Raskolnikov34]

3: Unnatural: It clearly goes against basic human nature on a Biological and psychological level. Men are meant to be attracted to women in order to propagate the species. Anything that goes against human nature is obviously wrong.

4: Immoral and Hedonistic: The infertile having sex is hedonistic? No, if there're married its not, there's nothing wrong per say with pleasure. Its when a person ignores basic ethics and morality in order to achieve pleasure, thus making pleasure their ultimate goal, that it becomes hedonism. And according to my morality? There's one, objective morality, personal opinions aside. But I don't want to argue about relativism, if that's what you're putting forward, when that's kind of off topic...maybe a different time.

It's natural for us to be wandering around naked, living in our own excrement. Are clothes and waste management terrible, evil things too?
It's also human nature to kill, rape, maim. Should we abolish all the laws condemning these?

Except that gay sex isn't just pleasure. It's about love and affection just as much as straight sex. If gay sex is hedonistic, then all sex is.

And if it is hedonistic, well who the fuck are you anyway? Your objective morality has no reasoning at all behind it. None, it's tautological templar (It's right because it's moral, it's moral because it's right)

Naturality means nothing, but I'll entertain it for the lulz. Humans are natural beings, thus, they can never do anything unnatural.

Explain to me why raping, killing, maiming, wandering in our own excrement and being naked are a part of human nature...and I already qualified why gay sex is hedonistic: it ignores basic ethics and morality in pursuit of pleasure; the same could be said for straight sex outside marriage.

WOAH NELLY basic ethics? I've done far more than my fair share of normative ethical philosophy, and if there was an ethical basis against it, it's most certainly not "basic" or I'd have already observed it.

Your basic ethical (And subjective, don't bullshit me on this) and moral reasoning is? Just expand it, it's easy, apparently, it's basic.

Why it is immoral hinges in a believe in God (no, its not God said so, so therefore we have to do it)...I don't know your religious views and I don't want to assume anything, so you'd have to fill me in before I could give it.

And also, try not to be so aggressive, its a debate; we're both seeking the truth, not violently wrestling for it.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

3: Unnatural: It clearly goes against basic human nature on a Biological and psychological level. Men are meant to be attracted to women in order to propagate the species. Anything that goes against human nature is obviously wrong.

4: Immoral and Hedonistic: The infertile having sex is hedonistic? No, if there're married its not, there's nothing wrong per say with pleasure. Its when a person ignores basic ethics and morality in order to achieve pleasure, thus making pleasure their ultimate goal, that it becomes hedonism. And according to my morality? There's one, objective morality, personal opinions aside. But I don't want to argue about relativism, if that's what you're putting forward, when that's kind of off topic...maybe a different time.

It's natural for us to be wandering around naked, living in our own excrement. Are clothes and waste management terrible, evil things too?
It's also human nature to kill, rape, maim. Should we abolish all the laws condemning these?

Except that gay sex isn't just pleasure. It's about love and affection just as much as straight sex. If gay sex is hedonistic, then all sex is.

Explain to me why raping, killing, maiming, wandering in our own excrement and being naked are a part of human nature...and I already qualified why gay sex is hedonistic: it ignores basic ethics and morality in pursuit of pleasure; the same could be said for straight sex outside marriage.

If a heterosexual couple has sex within a marriage that does not end up with a child being conceived, is that also "immoral and hedonistic"? You are rather fooling yourself if you think that human beings don't have sex so often if not for the intense pleasure that comes from the act itself. The pleasure is always there, the conception of a child is not.

Also, elaborate on "basic ethics and morality". Because from where I am standing, this seems to translate into "whatever my religion and my god say about ethics and morality is obviously the only viewpoint to objectively matter in our reality, so fuck you if you think you can defy that".

 

[mega48man]

Homosexuality is quite common in the natural world in many other species, why should humanity be any different?

Because we're talking about gay rights here, so animals have nothing to do in this discussion. That's like saying: It's unnatural for the human being to fly. And then someone comes up with: "But, birds...".

in what sense, then, can you say that homosexuality is unnatural? you seem to be appealing to a purely subjective standard of human nature.

he's not. he's telling vault girl that animals have nothing to do with the topic. i think a better way to show the absurdity of the comment is to say there aren't any racoons in the wild dressing like you ain't never seen elton john or lady gaga.

point is there are already animal right laws: don't abuse them. but they're aren't gay right laws (or at least there aren't in select states) so we need to get westboro to die in a hole, or all old people from kansas.

we're specifically discussing the claim that "homosexuality is unnatural". If TheSniperFan doesn't mean that in the biological sense, i'd like to know what he means by "unnatural", that's all.

The point was the naturalistic argument is flawed. Simply because something occurs naturally does not give it any weight in an argument. This is because there are natural things that are considered both good and bad from a human stand point, its not a giant pool of beneficial/good/awesome. The same goes with "unnatural" things, there are both good and bad unnatural things so to state that something is unnatural and thus bad is a fallacious argument. This video argues the correct point against the naturalistic argument, not the most common flawed one.

i'm not making a moral judgment in either direction. i am simply disputing the claim that homosexuality is unnatural.

Also homosexuality can be said to be unnatural as no exclusive in the wild pure homosexual relationships have been observed. To my knowledge at least, I feel its important to point that out as I'm not omnipotent but I'll continue to assume so until I see a credible sources state otherwise (scientific article). People get homosexual activity/behavior and homosexuality confused. The difference is what prevents the dog humping your leg being termed bestiality on the dog's part. They're following gratification for gratification's sake and to compare that with a human homosexual relationship I find demeaning.

for what it's worth, <a href=http://www.genetics.org/content/121/4/773.abstract>here's a scientific article. A specific genetic mutation in fruit flies produces exclusively homosexual mating behavior.

Of course sexual behavior in animals isn't strictly analogous to human sexuality. But that doesn't apply to homosexuality any more than heterosexuality. there's nothing to suggest that heterosexuality is any more "natural" (in a biological sense) than homosexuality is. I don't find the comparison any more demeaning than i do for heterosexual sex.

all i saw was "A specific genetic mutation in fruit flies produces exclusively homosexual mating behavior." and i lol'd

listen, you've pushed this to the point where i have to read so much that it's becomeing a full scale arguement. i was at an all night party last night and i don't have the fire power to engage a full scale flame war. homosexuality has been around since the time of the greeks, thus it's naturally or something.

oh, last thing; animals, including humans, are built on the sole instinct to survive and keep our species alive. to do that, we need to fuck and make babies. this usually works best with someone of the opposite sex. however, if 2 dudes fucks, they can't have babies, thus, their basic instinct to further protect the species from extinction that should be there isn't.

that's all i'm saying. i'm not against their choice, but i am saying i've never seen a pregnant guy (until last night at the all night party where we had a hypnotist do a show, it was fucking hilarious. all the guys on stage were convinced they were 6 months pregnant, then 9 months, then they had to give birth....and breast feed)

 

[zedel]

I came into this thread very disappointed. I left feeling slightly amused. Good job!

 

[Raskolnikov34]

Ok, this argument is now on multiple fronts with me vs several other people, so I can't respond to everyone really....I'm just gonna back out of the debate now, so sorry, I can't argue on a gaming forum with several differently people on multiple different issues. You can try private messaging me later and I'll respond.

And know, this isn't me accepting defeat..its the fact that I'm working on little sleep and lack the ability to argue well when not in person, much less with several different people. Its not just a cop-out basically is what I'm trying to say.

 

[Baneat]

3: Unnatural: It clearly goes against basic human nature on a Biological and psychological level. Men are meant to be attracted to women in order to propagate the species. Anything that goes against human nature is obviously wrong.

4: Immoral and Hedonistic: The infertile having sex is hedonistic? No, if there're married its not, there's nothing wrong per say with pleasure. Its when a person ignores basic ethics and morality in order to achieve pleasure, thus making pleasure their ultimate goal, that it becomes hedonism. And according to my morality? There's one, objective morality, personal opinions aside. But I don't want to argue about relativism, if that's what you're putting forward, when that's kind of off topic...maybe a different time.

It's natural for us to be wandering around naked, living in our own excrement. Are clothes and waste management terrible, evil things too?
It's also human nature to kill, rape, maim. Should we abolish all the laws condemning these?

Except that gay sex isn't just pleasure. It's about love and affection just as much as straight sex. If gay sex is hedonistic, then all sex is.

And if it is hedonistic, well who the fuck are you anyway? Your objective morality has no reasoning at all behind it. None, it's tautological templar (It's right because it's moral, it's moral because it's right)

Naturality means nothing, but I'll entertain it for the lulz. Humans are natural beings, thus, they can never do anything unnatural.

Explain to me why raping, killing, maiming, wandering in our own excrement and being naked are a part of human nature...and I already qualified why gay sex is hedonistic: it ignores basic ethics and morality in pursuit of pleasure; the same could be said for straight sex outside marriage.

WOAH NELLY basic ethics? I've done far more than my fair share of normative ethical philosophy, and if there was an ethical basis against it, it's most certainly not "basic" or I'd have already observed it.

Your basic ethical (And subjective, don't bullshit me on this) and moral reasoning is? Just expand it, it's easy, apparently, it's basic.

Why it is immoral hinges in a believe in God (no, its not God said so, so therefore we have to do it)...I don't know your religious views and I don't want to assume anything, so you'd have to fill me in before I could give it.

And also, try not to be so aggressive, its a debate; we're both seeking the truth, not violently wrestling for it.

I was making a point, you're no moral authority on anything, it's a giant tautology (Which you've yet to address). Literally, who the fuck are you, not "I want to piss you off"

Don't mix in "God" with "Religion", God's necessary to Religion, Religion's a contingent to a belief in God

<Agnostic atheist if you deem it relevant.

If you base morality off some fuckin book made a long time ago by other people and assert it as truth and word of god (A God who cannot be wrong) - then I can't help you. You're not seeking truth, faith makes truth impossible.

Well, you know what(Oh fuck Godwin, it's an easy example and I can't be bothered)? Mein Kampf. It was all correct, all true, everything in that is the moral objective truth. Why? We don't ask such questions!

Enjoy.

Read the post above

Okay answer me one thing, address the accusation that you are resorting to circular reasoning. Just that's good enough to have gained something, because I'm pretty sure the other five guys arguing with me have pretty much the same line of thinking, if not identical.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

last thing; animals, including humans, are built on the sole instinct to survive and keep our species alive. to do that, we need to fuck and make babies. this usually works best with someone of the opposite sex. however, if 2 dudes fucks, they can't have babies, thus, their basic instinct to further protect the species from extinction that should be there isn't.

I'm pretty sure considering the majority of humanity is heterosexual and we are currently in an age of population overgrowth, having a population percentage of nearly 8-10% of identifying homosexual individuals not creating babies has a very strong inclination to do fuck all in holding back the majority from propagating the human race, I'm afraid.

If those numbers were reversed, or homosexuality was more about 40+% of the population.. then you might actually have a legitimate argument upon that basis.

 

[Raskolnikov34]

3: Unnatural: It clearly goes against basic human nature on a Biological and psychological level. Men are meant to be attracted to women in order to propagate the species. Anything that goes against human nature is obviously wrong.

4: Immoral and Hedonistic: The infertile having sex is hedonistic? No, if there're married its not, there's nothing wrong per say with pleasure. Its when a person ignores basic ethics and morality in order to achieve pleasure, thus making pleasure their ultimate goal, that it becomes hedonism. And according to my morality? There's one, objective morality, personal opinions aside. But I don't want to argue about relativism, if that's what you're putting forward, when that's kind of off topic...maybe a different time.

It's natural for us to be wandering around naked, living in our own excrement. Are clothes and waste management terrible, evil things too?
It's also human nature to kill, rape, maim. Should we abolish all the laws condemning these?

Except that gay sex isn't just pleasure. It's about love and affection just as much as straight sex. If gay sex is hedonistic, then all sex is.

And if it is hedonistic, well who the fuck are you anyway? Your objective morality has no reasoning at all behind it. None, it's tautological templar (It's right because it's moral, it's moral because it's right)

Naturality means nothing, but I'll entertain it for the lulz. Humans are natural beings, thus, they can never do anything unnatural.

Explain to me why raping, killing, maiming, wandering in our own excrement and being naked are a part of human nature...and I already qualified why gay sex is hedonistic: it ignores basic ethics and morality in pursuit of pleasure; the same could be said for straight sex outside marriage.

WOAH NELLY basic ethics? I've done far more than my fair share of normative ethical philosophy, and if there was an ethical basis against it, it's most certainly not "basic" or I'd have already observed it.

Your basic ethical (And subjective, don't bullshit me on this) and moral reasoning is? Just expand it, it's easy, apparently, it's basic.

Why it is immoral hinges in a believe in God (no, its not God said so, so therefore we have to do it)...I don't know your religious views and I don't want to assume anything, so you'd have to fill me in before I could give it.

And also, try not to be so aggressive, its a debate; we're both seeking the truth, not violently wrestling for it.

I was making a point, you're no moral authority on anything, it's a giant tautology (Which you've yet to address). Literally, who the fuck are you, not "I want to piss you off"

Don't mix in "God" with "Religion", God's necessary to Religion, Religion's a contingent to a belief in God

<Agnostic atheist if you deem it relevant.

If you base morality off some fuckin book made a long time ago by other people and assert it as truth and word of god (A God who cannot be wrong) - then I can't help you. You're not seeking truth, faith makes truth impossible.

Well, you know what(Oh fuck Godwin, it's an easy example and I can't be bothered)? Mein Kampf. It was all correct, all true, everything in that is the moral objective truth.

Enjoy.

See, now since your an atheist, I have to engage in a whole religious debate...see my earlier post...and faith makes truth impossible? Think about that for 3 seconds, and try to figure out why radical skepticism is completely irrational.

And who the fuck am I? Who the fuck are you?

Edit: and can you point out my circular logic? I really don't know what part of my argument you're referring to.

 

[Baneat]

last thing; animals, including humans, are built on the sole instinct to survive and keep our species alive. to do that, we need to fuck and make babies. this usually works best with someone of the opposite sex. however, if 2 dudes fucks, they can't have babies, thus, their basic instinct to further protect the species from extinction that should be there isn't.

I'm pretty sure considering the majority of humanity is heterosexual and we are currently in an age of population overgrowth, having a population percentage of nearly 8-10% of identifying homosexual individuals not creating babies has a very strong inclination to do fuck all in holding back the majority from propagating the human race, I'm afraid.

If those numbers were reversed, or homosexuality was more about 40+% of the population.. then you might actually have a legitimate argument upon that basis.

Not even that satisfies me. There's no moral obligation to maximise the number of lives (If you're not a utilitarian), hence why we do not force people to fuck *constantly* and make as many babies as possible (A way to achieve nozick's "Repugnant Conclusion").

Just because natural selection made it so that it's purposeful doesn't make it a moral duty.

 

[Mosesj]

The video I found quite humourous. Although I can't see posting it as anything else other than trollbait as it is rather... obnoxious at the same time. Some people will be too dumb to take it how its supposed to be taken and will see it as an attack against homosexuality.

Plus there is the fact its your very first post.

I thought that, but then i thought it was probably being sarcastic then i saw the video