Why I Fight.

[wulf3n]

To purloin and modify a disputed quote, "All that is necessary for the triumph of sexism is that good men say nothing."

Isn't that somewhat ironic? Isn't it sexist to think good men are the crucial element in stopping sexism?

 

[ZZoMBiE13]

Believing in gender equality and trying to work towards that ideal is good (as should be obvious to any half-decent human being, really), but you might want to be careful exactly how you do that. To me, (and it's entirely possible I'm wrong about this) it seems like you have exactly the wrong attitude to improve the situation.

Personally, I think "Why I Fight" is a terrible way to phrase it to begin with, you generally don't create social change and educate people by "fighting" them. It's not a battle between good and evil, and treating it as such just makes people become defensive and entrench themselves in their beliefs. Good ideals simply aren't enough to have a positive impact, and it's far too common to see people whose hearts really are in the right place damaging their own cause rather than helping it.

I would never tell you to stop trying to reduce these injustices, but please be very careful to always consider whether that's what you're actually doing, rather than unintentionally making people even more resistant to progress and equality. It's very easy to do.

You have a point, and ordinarily I would agree with you. However, in this case, this topic is almost never discussed civilly because when the very idea of feminist ideals is mentioned, the backlash is immediate, vocal and vitriolic. The detractors don't start off open to ideas, they are already closed off and kneejerking furiously about fictionalised bogeymen they've created in their own minds. This happens all too often, so that rational and reasonable discussion is impossible from the get go.

So in this case, I maintain the usage of the word 'fight' because it seems to be the only word that makes sense. Now, granted you make a good case for general discussion, and within a proper, rational and sensible discussion that's always the best course of action; but as I said, that isn't where it begins most times.

Thank you for the response though, it has given me food for thought for the future.

Good on you for all of it. It's also nice to see someone who's ideals mirror my own even though there's a couple decades between our ages. Keep up the fight.

And to the person saying "Fighting is the wrong way (paraphrased)", I don't think that's neccesarily the case. Civil rights didn't just happen in the 60s. The feminist movements didn't just occur. They were the product of people wanting, and deserving, equality only to have the very notion mocked by established powers that be.

Sometimes all one can do is fight when the opposition is so quick to dismiss the very notion of what should be a given by this point in our evolution. That's not to say one should become immediately hostile, but that's not really what I got from this post. Other than a curiosity about the fight mentioned in the heading, I never took this to mean someone seeking out encounters looking for a fight. But someone who's been introspective, seen the harm some folks can still inflict, and chooses to speak out. Of course this is the internet and often times tone is difficult to divine simply from text, so perhaps we each read the post with a different feeling toward where the opening post was headed. Either way, cheers to you both.

 

[1Life0Continues]

To purloin and modify a disputed quote, "All that is necessary for the triumph of sexism is that good men say nothing."

Isn't that somewhat ironic? Isn't it sexist to think good men are the crucial element in stopping sexism?

Well, I'm going to come at this from the idea that you're genuinely asking this question, rather than the much more likely event that you simply chose to take the line out of context of the rest of the post.

No. Because it has relevance to the topic at hand. Yes, it does oversimplify, but it was used to illustrate the point that it's going to take men as well to start speaking out against the inherent problems in society, because it's abundantly clear that male society listens to men far more than women, so who better to bring the topic up?

Thanks for the response.

 

[Savryc]

blind to everything but their own personal agenda, will not allow for any deviation from their narrowly defined ideals of righteousness, and react by attacking the character of the person they disagree with rather than any salient points.

Sounds like they have a lot in common with the average Escapist then, you'd think they'd get along more.

OT: Well, I've had a cider too many to read all of that thoroughly. But I think I got the general gist.

Good on ya.

A lot of people here will wail and gnash their teeth, because they're "sick of hearing it" or because they can't separate themselves or their ego from their gender, or even to defend their precious vidya and petty escapism. These people are not worthy of respect and while I may not see eye to eye with some that call themselves feminists it's certainly a worthy cause when done in the name of your family and loved ones.

 

[1Life0Continues]

*snip*

*snip again*

Good on you for all of it. It's also nice to see someone who's ideals mirror my own even though there's a couple decades between our ages. Keep up the fight.

And to the person saying "Fighting is the wrong way (paraphrased)", I don't think that's neccesarily the case. Civil rights didn't just happen in the 60s. The feminist movements didn't just occur. They were the product of people wanting, and deserving, equality only to have the very notion mocked by established powers that be.

Sometimes all one can do is fight when the opposition is so quick to dismiss the very notion of what should be a given by this point in our evolution. That's not to say one should become immediately hostile, but that's not really what I got from this post. Other than a curiosity about the fight mentioned in the heading, I never took this to mean someone seeking out encounters looking for a fight. But someone who's been introspective, seen the harm some folks can still inflict, and chooses to speak out. Of course this is the internet and often times tone is difficult to divine simply from text, so perhaps we each read the post with a different feeling toward where the opening post was headed. Either way, cheers to you both.

Thank you. It upsets me it took that event to open my eyes, but perhaps better late than never. I do owe it to the patience of my wife who calmly sat with gritted teeth while I argued with her from that flawed place of privilege and outlined why what I said was actually dangerous to her. But it took being punched in the face with the problem to really...well, hammer it home.

Thanks for the response. Very kind.

 

[1Life0Continues]

blind to everything but their own personal agenda, will not allow for any deviation from their narrowly defined ideals of righteousness, and react by attacking the character of the person they disagree with rather than any salient points.

Sounds like they have a lot in common with the average Escapist then, you'd think they'd get along more.

OT: Well, I've had a cider too many to read all of that thoroughly. But I think I got the general gist.

Good on ya.

A lot of people here will wail and gnash their teeth, because they're "sick of hearing it" or because they can't separate themselves or their ego from their gender, or even to defend their precious vidya and petty escapism. These people are not worthy of respect and while I may not see eye to eye with some that call themselves feminists it's certainly a worthy cause when done in the name of your family and loved ones.

Well, since I'm barely a year old here, I can't confirm or deny your appraisal, however I will confess to having a chuckle at your response to that quote.

And thank you. Although while my family and loved ones were the impetus for my "awakening" as such, it's not just them I want to do this for. It's everyone. Contrary to popular belief, I want a better world for men too, and personally believe that with equal footing for women, men will benefit just as much.

Enjoy your cider, friend.

 

[1Life0Continues]

Wow. Apparently this thread was so "influential", it caused someone to sign up (or make an alt account) to post two propaganda videos. Hmmm.

 

[1Life0Continues]

You're fighting for a world which does not exist, will not exist and should not exist.

Men and women will always treat each other with double standards, which is fine, because they are different. They expect different things from each other, and there are good reasons for that - both from a natural and a social stand point.

In any case, whats the worst thing your wife had to endure due to "equating female with male sexuality"? Just out of curiosity.

I will respectfully disagree, because your viewpoint is skewed and presupposes humans are only subject to natural impulses, which history shows is clearly false. Humans are fully capable of moving past their baser selves.

And I choose to not answer the question posed. This is out of respect to my wife, who does not wish this particular information disclosed. Suffice to say, there is a much deeper run on effect than is visible.

Thanks for the response.

 

[omega 616]

I either headbutt the wall, or ignore the wall and pretend it doesn't exist. I'd rather do the former because at least I'm doing something. Again, it takes apathy for injustice to prosper, and since the legions of women crying out for the last 4 decades have been ignored, maybe it's time for men like myself to start doing some of the heavy lifting, yeah?

The Hooter's and strip club points...well, there's problems there. I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of those professions, but when it comes to a womans body, if SHE wants to do it, why not? Also, "Taking advantage of men's libido" still frames the actions of women around your sexual needs, not their motivations.

Magazines are a whole different kettle of fish, and there are essays upon essays about the negative impact of magazines on young women and men. But in essence, if society didn't have these dichotomies in place to start with, the magazines wouldn't exist in the first place. They are simply reflections of our culture.

I am aware I am just one guy. But one guy is better than no guys. And the more guys, the more likely change is to occur. At least that's the hope.

Thanks for the response.

Yeah, putting things like "maybe it's time for men like myself to start doing some of the heavy lifting" doesn't sound sexist at all. "these women need a mans help to sort this stuff out".

Have they really been crying out? Like I said, I am all for equality but people don't know what is best for them and a lot of women like the special treatment they get ... which they do get, like Chris Rock says "ever since you were 13 every guy you've met has been tryin' to fuck ya! ... holding a door open, "can I offer you some dick?"" and splitting the bill, asking a person out or proposing. Bill Burr also does a few jokes on the subject ...


I can see where you're coming from but you're like a guy who has just found out he passed all his exams, you're expecting to walk into a high paid job, your life is just starting, all the hard work is behind you and now your on easy street to the grave. You're all naive and full of hope of changing the world ... WRONG! You're going to be seen like you're a religious nut or vegan, one of those guys who comes across as morally superior and a know it all white knight.

You're doing the right thing but the majority of people will hate you for it, guys will mock you for being a white knight and women will think your condescending or patronizing.

If the world was a just place the first world would make the third world at least second world, instead we profit and enjoy of the misery and death of others. Good hard working people would be the millionaires and billionairs, not the self centered ones who did every shady trick in the book to get wealthy. Dictators wouldn't rise to power or stay there if they did.

There are millions of people having the same fight you are and there will continue to be, much like Ghandi, Martin luther king and Malcolm x ... all very influential people but still the things they fought against plague this earth. Like I've said, it's great you're doing it but you're a drop in an ocean.

Personally, I think it's a woman's fight ... a bunch of men leading the charge wont do it, women like the suffragette will. Society will just have to decide do they want stuff like "you can't hit a woman" or saying stupid shit like "rape culture" (that phrase seriously pisses me off! Which I am not getting into 'cos my opinion on that causes me to have 30 odd quotes.)

 

[wulf3n]

but it was used to illustrate the point that it's going to take men as well to start speaking out against the inherent problems in society, because it's abundantly clear that male society listens to men far more than women, so who better to bring the topic up?

Thanks for the response.

Hmmm, maybe. The way I see it sexism exists because of the distinctions, as such propagating them isn't really addressing the problem.

 

[1Life0Continues]

*snip*

And it's here I cease responding, because it's clear no further discussion is possible. Which is sad to me, but entirely outside of my control.

Thank you, and have a pleasant day.

 

[1Life0Continues]

but it was used to illustrate the point that it's going to take men as well to start speaking out against the inherent problems in society, because it's abundantly clear that male society listens to men far more than women, so who better to bring the topic up?

Thanks for the response.

Hmmm, maybe. The way I see it sexism exists because of the distinctions, as such propagating them isn't really addressing the problem.

Perhaps. Or maybe it takes working within the system you have in order to create a new one. It's a tricky line to walk but what else is there but to try?

Thank you.

 

[Megalodon]

snip

Sadly, you've probably wasted the effort here. And expect some flak for mentioning the Amazing Atheist and Thunderf00t in an SJW thread. Neither of them is particularly popular amongst many denizens of this forum.

There's no point arguing in threads like this. Once phrases like 'rape culture' show up, we're done. You'll never convince them of anything.

But, because I can't leave well enough alone:

I make sure that I try to walk behind every woman on the street in a way that does not make me seem a threat to them. Because as much as I don't think I am, I might be to her. My 6'2" 300 pound fat frame looks ridiculous in the mirror, but to a 5 foot and change slim woman walking down the street, I am quite possibly a potential monster. I try to educate my friends about this, and slowly they are starting to see it. You might be correct, that some are simply getting upset at nothing. But you don't know if that's correct for all of us.

Do you do the same with pensioners, dwarves, or even short scrawny guys?

Because attitudes like that strike me as the most hilariously, hypocritically sexist stance to take. Why assume women are so emotionally fragile that must be coddled and treated with kid gloves, just due to their gender? If I'm walking down the pavement, and somebody thinks I look threatening when I'm just walking, going about my business, then that's their problem, not mine.

I get similar feelings myself. I'm significantly more on edge, and expecting confrontation, walking past a group of chav teenagers than say, a gaggle of Chinese students, or women pushing prams. But I wouldn't expect them to change their behaviour around me, or any other complete stranger.

 

[wulf3n]

Or maybe it takes working within the system you have in order to create a new one.

Coming from a software development perspective that generally leads to problems. When trying to improve and extend a piece of software often people will simply try to add/refactor what they already have as it seems quicker and easier. But what ends up happening is that you're then forced to make the code do things it was never meant to do, and every addition is a hack. This makes the code much more complex and in turn makes it exponentially harder to keep improving.

Starting from scratch however, you can ensure the foundation is solid, which makes improvements easier to implement, which means they come more frequent.


Though software doesn't necessarily translate to real life... yet!

 

[1Life0Continues]

Thanks to all that responded, both in the affirmative and the negative. All are appreciated.

I leave you to bicker within or ignore this thread. I meant this as a rationale for my viewpoint, and it is one I am as of now still in full belief of.

See you in other threads, I am sure.

 

[Bestival]

snip

Yeah I know, and I'm not at all saying its a 1 to 1 comparison. Of course a gender spread bias/discrimination is far more widely spread and more common than any (rare) physical handicap. Point is, sometimes people that say "I'm fine/okay with it." really are okay with it.
Also, I didn't really get a 'threat of rape or murder' type vibe from your OP. It might be implied, but if it is, it isn't obvious to a semi drunk, semi stupid, reader like myself.

Still, I like your post, while at the same time regretting we live in a world where such posts are even needed to be made. Equality is the way to go, and the current situation is utter bullshit.


I would like to take this opportunity to once again invite people to check out Yo, Is This Racist [http://yoisthisracist.com/]. There are a lot of good points made there, regarding racism, sexism, homophobia, and classism.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

That's the opinion of the more tacit and reasonable people I have seen on this thread/forum.

I'm not going to congratulate you, just going to say that it's how people should act, and how I believe most people to be like underneath all the nonsense they project.

If you have been called a social justice warrior, then the person who did so is quite aggressive in his pursuit to invalidate your argument. You shouldn't concern yourself with people like them, nor the "Men's Right Activists" of that side of the internet, who believe that all women are misandric and that the 'feminists' want to 'take away our games'.

I will say that the push for more fairly-represented characters is noble, but the game's industry still needs to mature before we reach that point. What we need is well written characters, end of. They can be male/female/trans, etc. but the quality of story-telling needs to step-up. It's why I don't like it when people invalidate a game because it's not game-y enough, because the mechanics don't impress them. I think that it's a fairly short-sighted opinion that could be potentially harmful. Mechanic experimentation is omni-present in this medium, but what is lacking is proper story-telling. It seems that after Portal we have either been running in place, or we have taken a completely different and infinitely more awkward path of 'narrative as an interactive movie'(see: The Last of Us). We have been improving slowly, but not to the point that we can simply just ask for a female character and expect for them to be immediately engaging. Ergo; gaming needs to grow up before we can 'just do' that.

And I will say that some of the stuff you say does tend to seem a bit overboard, but it's with good intentions in mind and doesn't come off as aggressive(the whole 'I don't want to scare women' thing seems a bit odd to me, surely if you don't present yourself as deliberately scary or if you dressed in scary apparel, you wouldn't have to worry about it. I mean, I don't, and I am 6ft 6", 220-odd pound guy; never been told that I am scary because of this).

However, I still feel that this thread is doomed into oblivion because feminism and SJW have both been mentioned. It's not the OP's fault, it's this forum's.