Why is Being Nuetral in GamerGate a bad thing?

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grassgremlin

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smokratez said:
Roofstone said:
It just struck me, I don't actually KNOW what gamergate is. As far as I could know people just really absolutely fucking loathe that collection of letters.

OT: When there are two sides of a issue, if you are on neither or either of said sides, you are not helping their cause, thereby hurting it. At least in their minds I imagine.
I see someone neutral on the issue as s
grassgremlin said:
the silence said:
As I like to call myself "neutral", just my two cents:
It's no good to shout your voice into a shitstorm (or something like it), if your plan is not to make it bigger. I will read stuff from both sides (I see both sides largely represented in a false light), but I will not post some half-assed conclusions. Right now it is time to gather information (if the issue interests you). There are a lot of unanswered questions. Right answers will take time.
Secondly, to jump to half-assed conclusions anyway, I think there are issues behind this which were talked about before, but are now swept into the storm without impact. For example: Review scores and objectivity. Or feminism, the role of the younger generation(s males) and the older generation (there is a MASSIVE difference).


There was one debate which really showed the philosophical differences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_n2ctR-JN8
This is a well-spoken debate from both sides (Apart from the chat, which was literally shit). We should have more such debates.
While, my opinions recently changed and I'm no longer nuetral. I agree with looking between the lines.
I have a lot of passion for the industry, whether I was for or against, I'd have a opinion.
I have come to one conclusion and that's that both sides seem to want the exact same things.

I'll say I'm anti-gamer gate, but I'm not FOR game journalists. I just don't like Gamer Gate's actions or opinions. That's all.

So yeah, opinions change, but I agree that nuetrality helps.


I don't mind someone choosing to be neutral at all. At least they aren't the people who have been accusing of us terrible things.

What gamer gate actions do you disapprove of?
The actions against Zoe Quinn, Liana K as well as a few others.
No, I don't agree with her, but people for gamer gate don't know how to talk.

I think it comes to something I disapprove of the internet. Harassment and hate campaigns against individuals who have likely done something minor and their actions are often taken out of context.

I've seen people get devoured for one sentence they said that people took completely out of context.
When I say hate campaigns, I also include individuals such as Chris-Chan, though now I think it capitalizes on his own hate fame now.

I'll try to explain myself. I agree in diversity and I honestly realized there's nothing wrong with inclusiveness. I don't completely agree with Anita, but she has a right to make the videos she makes regardless.

Gamer Gate has good intentions, but they squander it with not only being incredibly obnoxious, but also very entitled. I also think "Gamers" take video games waaaaaaaay to seriously. I went and deconstructed the term gamer and honestly, I realized I never once referred to it for myself other then viewing it as a harmless term.

I don't see a reason to fight for a word, because it makes no sense too. Yes, people making "gamers are dead" articles should be called out for it, but they should not be fired for it, because you don't know these people.

How can you call anyone "evil" when you do not know who they are or how there business works? Are the conspiracies painting these people as evil as they really are?

And yes, I read the mailing list. What I saw was people genuinely misinterpreting a cause. There was no secret evil organization plotting to end gaming. There was actual concerned bleeding hearts. Not a single word from even the "head honcho" Ben Kuchera states that he himself is some evil man. You can tell in Greg Tito's tone too, that he maybe saw his friend's opinion as an over reaction. Of course, people say Ben was controlling everyone. I saw no control sense Mr. Tito still has these forums and I doubt he's been kicked off the mailing list.

The problem with all this is that people are attacking actual human beings with no regard for the feelings of others. Only there own, which in the greater society would be laughed at.

If I told my father I was fighting for "gamers" he'd laugh so hard it be funny, stating their are waaaaay worst problems currently in the world right now. I guess I'm growing up, because isn't gaming just about . . . I dunno, playing a game. It's fanatical to defend a game, and I'm honestly done being a "fan."

I play some silly crap that should be criticized for being silly or ridiculous.

I guess I feel people for Gamergate feel the entire internet should be 4chan, where everyone is just saying offensive words and ragging on people for making mistakes and I don't want to be apart of it, sorry.

Back before the internet was huge, I don't think I ever seen people make blogs about a single minded hate for a person. Why so much time? Do yourself a favor and put yourself in Zoe Quinn's shoes.

When a child steals a cookie, he's punished by being put in a corner, not locked in a cage while people throw tomatoes at him for several weeks until they force him to apologize. That emotional trauma is real and I dare not wish that on anyone.

It's crazy when I check out on the old Chris-Chan stuff waiting for the day they report the man killed himself. Sure, awful person and all, but wow, entire wikis based on this one person.

Funny cause it actually took "Chris-Chan" of all people to truly make me change my opinion. He's just an example of a person who lived his life through his gaming and anime and just went off on the deep end. Is he the only one? You have to ask. Don't be absorbed in your fandom of things that you lose reality. I get gaming pulled you through dark times, but also realize that when you put the controller down, there's the real world.

The real world doesn't give two shits about "gaming journalist integrity"
After all, he had the privilege of a monthly "tugboat"
 

Alex1508

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Roofstone said:
It just struck me, I don't actually KNOW what gamergate is. As far as I could know people just really absolutely fucking loathe that collection of letters.

OT: When there are two sides of a issue, if you are on neither or either of said sides, you are not helping their cause, thereby hurting it. At least in their minds I imagine.
In my warped and biased viewpoint, things go on like this:

1. A woman is suspected of sabotaging a charity event with feminism as her justification, even though the event supposedly aimed to support female developers. She's also suspected to have used sex to get more coverage for her game and influence the industry.
2. A more or less reasonable group of people get upset about this, and make the issue somewhat known.
3. An ex decides to share information about this woman's sex life, which picks up popularity because of the aforementioned scandal.
4. A crazy guy builds a conspiracy from this sex life, which may have started with truth at it's heart, but quickly gets out of hand.
5. Misogynists or generally ppl who have an axe to grind with the "political correctness" invading their games pick up on this conspiracy and go nuts with it, attacking the woman in typical internet fashion.
6. News sites, always eager to paint things in black and white, ignore the concerns raised by the reasonable people and make the issue about feminism versus misogyny, grouping all people who don't praise the woman in the latter category.
7. The aforementioned reasonable people, having been lumped together with misogynists, become resentful of news websites who use the "feminism" debate to cover their refusal to address real issues.
8. Misogynists start backing up the reasonable people. The reasonable people don't notice, being too focused on their new enemies.
9. An unusually high number of comments, videos, and forums posts are deleted en masse for siding with "gamersgate", regardless of whether they fell into the reasonable or misogynist categories.
10. A portion of the reasonable people begin thinking there's maybe something to this whole "conspiracy" angle, and start becoming indistinguishable from the crazies.
11. Repeat steps 6, 7, 8, and 10 until the whole world's gone crazy and everybody is convinced that everybody else is a mis[ogyn/andr]ist and that there are absolutely no mis[andr/ogyn]ists on their "side".
12. A journalist with an axe to grind with feminists manages to procure information that proves that many of the gaming media websites are basically talking to each other on how to control the spread of information and dissent thus giving credence to the aforementioned conspiracy theories. Reasonable people take this as evidence for the existance of corruption within the gaming media, while the ppl with an axe to grind against "SJW" a term that encompasses basically anyone who has a more progressive leaning (female, lgbt protagonists, representation, etc) basically went on a field trip with this attacking and harrassing anyone they percieved as SJW.
13. The lines are drawn and such in the grimdark age of gamergate there's only war .....
 

TheLastFeeder

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I have stayed quiet when it comes to Gamergate, because I don't care and voicing that opinion is something that people on both side hate, because when it comes to causes the worst thing to someone that beleaves in that cause is not opposing it, it is to view it as irrelivant.
 

MerlinCross

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Myself I have no problems with people who stay Neutral in this, nor in other debates. Sometimes the subject matter is something they don't know. Other times it's the loudest debaters that drive people off. And other times people try to draw the neutrals into their camp, or paint them as supporting the other camp.

This madness must stop.
 

Ushiromiya Battler

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Feb 7, 2010
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Alex1508 said:
Roofstone said:
It just struck me, I don't actually KNOW what gamergate is. As far as I could know people just really absolutely fucking loathe that collection of letters.

OT: When there are two sides of a issue, if you are on neither or either of said sides, you are not helping their cause, thereby hurting it. At least in their minds I imagine.
In my warped and biased viewpoint, things go on like this:

1. A woman is suspected of sabotaging a charity event with feminism as her justification, even though the event supposedly aimed to support female developers. She's also suspected to have used sex to get more coverage for her game and influence the industry.
2. A more or less reasonable group of people get upset about this, and make the issue somewhat known.
3. An ex decides to share information about this woman's sex life, which picks up popularity because of the aforementioned scandal.
4. A crazy guy builds a conspiracy from this sex life, which may have started with truth at it's heart, but quickly gets out of hand.
5. Misogynists or generally ppl who have an axe to grind with the "political correctness" invading their games pick up on this conspiracy and go nuts with it, attacking the woman in typical internet fashion.
6. News sites, always eager to paint things in black and white, ignore the concerns raised by the reasonable people and make the issue about feminism versus misogyny, grouping all people who don't praise the woman in the latter category.
7. The aforementioned reasonable people, having been lumped together with misogynists, become resentful of news websites who use the "feminism" debate to cover their refusal to address real issues.
8. Misogynists start backing up the reasonable people. The reasonable people don't notice, being too focused on their new enemies.
9. An unusually high number of comments, videos, and forums posts are deleted en masse for siding with "gamersgate", regardless of whether they fell into the reasonable or misogynist categories.
10. A portion of the reasonable people begin thinking there's maybe something to this whole "conspiracy" angle, and start becoming indistinguishable from the crazies.
11. Repeat steps 6, 7, 8, and 10 until the whole world's gone crazy and everybody is convinced that everybody else is a mis[ogyn/andr]ist and that there are absolutely no mis[andr/ogyn]ists on their "side".
12. A journalist with an axe to grind with feminists manages to procure information that proves that many of the gaming media websites are basically talking to each other on how to control the spread of information and dissent thus giving credence to the aforementioned conspiracy theories. Reasonable people take this as evidence for the existance of corruption within the gaming media, while the ppl with an axe to grind against "SJW" a term that encompasses basically anyone who has a more progressive leaning (female, lgbt protagonists, representation, etc) basically went on a field trip with this attacking and harrassing anyone they percieved as SJW.
13. The lines are drawn and such in the grimdark age of gamergate there's only war .....
That's probably the best recap of this whole gamergate thing on the whole site.

Well done!

OT: Being neutral is the only way you can keep you sanity in check in this whole debacle. So, not a bad thing at all, just try not be overly dismissive and passive aggressive against both sides. If you do that you've pretty much picked a third side.
 

grassgremlin

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smokratez said:
Is there a reason why you accredit the harassment ZQ received to gamer gate?
GamerGate would not exist without the Zoe Quinn's boyfriend opening the lid on her affairs. A boyfriend, mind you, who was likely jealous and bitter and wanted to sling mud. I don't think he intended to open any sort of gamer conspiracy.

smokratez said:
Are you aware that ZQ tried to shut down a charity project intended to get more women into game development? Did you know 4chan alone raised over 20.000 dollars to make sure this charity project doesn't get shut down? The amount of women on 4 chan compared to how many men use the site.
No. And as far as the amount of women on 4chan, it's not very convincing honestly. It doesn't help that the loudest speakers for Gamer Gate seem to be male.


smokratez said:
If the harassment ZQ received is one of the main reasons why you are anti gamer gate, would harassment done by anti gamer gaters to innocent people sway your opinion?
No. Why I don't agree with the way many against gamer gate have acted, they are the result of lost tempers after constant prodding and trolling. It's very difficult to keep one's cool when you're trying to explain yourself only to have a random troll pop in to rip your words apart.

Worst when you're called an idiot for having an opinion.


smokratez said:
One of the main reasons gamer gate is fighting is to end corruption, collusion and nepotism in gaming journalism. To say it's only over a word oversimplifies the issue immensely.
Doesn't change my opinion. To add, I don't think this corruption is anywhere near the level Gamergate is trying to frame it, honestly.


smokratez said:
I play games as a means to relax and have fun. To immerse myself in a world a game like skyrim offers, to enjoy an experience that nothing other than gaming can offer. Sure I can read a nice fantasy book, and I read lots of books, but only in a game can I be part of something like that. I don't play games as a means to get away from reality. I play them to enhance the amount and diversity of experiences I can have in my life. I have a job, a loving girlfriend, real life hobbies, friends and family that care for me and I for them. I don't need to realize there is a real world outside of gaming, because I am currently busy living in it.
Good for you. I was referring to people who have turned gaming entirely to their lives that they neglect such things as exercise, bathing and other important aspects of life. I honestly don't think a lot of the people on this discussion discuss it in any healthy way. I seriously have no idea how one can have the time to troll others.
 

Ushiromiya Battler

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grassgremlin said:
No. Why I don't agree with the way many against gamer gate have acted, they are the result of lost tempers after constant prodding and trolling. It's very difficult to keep one's cool when you're trying to explain yourself only to have a random troll pop in to rip your words apart.

Worst when you're called an idiot for having an opinion.
That's just an excuse though. Just because people have done bad things against you, losing your cool and attacking them back is a stupid, stupid idea.
It should never be excusable.

And that is the main reason I have stayed neutral through the whole thing, the amount of shit flinging on both sides is not something I want to be associated with.
 

Frission

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There's nothing wrong with being neutral. The whole issue is exhausting and most of what's come out of it is bitterness and occasionally unmasking the nature of people.

I'm still trying to deal with the extremists in the "side" I chose to support.
 

shirkbot

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Frission said:
There's nothing wrong with being neutral. The whole issue is exhausting and most of what's come out of it is bitterness and occasionally unmasking the nature of people.

I'm still trying to deal with the extremists in the "side" I chose to support.
On a more positive note it's been a solid time waster and it's kept me enough more-occupied than usual that I've actually started remembering names and avatars and people to talk to, so it's not all bad.

OT: There's nothing wrong with being neutral, though I'm understanding that the OP has subsequently changed their opinion on the matter. I openly admit to antagonizing the "pro-GG" side of things more, but ultimately my only real interest is their PR problems. I find that kind of thing interesting, so I try to help on the off chance that something good can still be salvaged out of all this lunacy.
 

Scars Unseen

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grassgremlin said:
Scars Unseen said:
When it comes to the topic of being neutral, you are either for or against. There is no middle ground!
I'm against Gamer Gate.
Two days ago I had a long conversation with a very close friend some time after I made this forum post.
He convinced me to choose a side . . .

HOWEVER! I do not agree with your comment at all. "Either for or Against Us." Go away with this stupid rhetoric, no one gives a crap about your opinion regardless. If you are for gamer gate, sorry but I don't agree, if you are against it then, sorry but I don't agree. I'm also a person with my own opinions too.

Is it so hard to see both sides of the argument. I don't like being told something is a lie without seeing it for myself, sorry. I don't read things at face value and make a decision, I'm a skeptic something you yourself should learn to be.

Ask questions, always.
You posted that seriously, didn't you. Read my post again, carefully this time, and see if something odd strikes you about it.
 

grassgremlin

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Scars Unseen said:
grassgremlin said:
Scars Unseen said:
When it comes to the topic of being neutral, you are either for or against. There is no middle ground!
I'm against Gamer Gate.
Two days ago I had a long conversation with a very close friend some time after I made this forum post.
He convinced me to choose a side . . .

HOWEVER! I do not agree with your comment at all. "Either for or Against Us." Go away with this stupid rhetoric, no one gives a crap about your opinion regardless. If you are for gamer gate, sorry but I don't agree, if you are against it then, sorry but I don't agree. I'm also a person with my own opinions too.

Is it so hard to see both sides of the argument. I don't like being told something is a lie without seeing it for myself, sorry. I don't read things at face value and make a decision, I'm a skeptic something you yourself should learn to be.

Ask questions, always.
You posted that seriously, didn't you. Read my post again, carefully this time, and see if something odd strikes you about it.
People who think like that can only see issues as black and white, sorry. I don't agree with it.
 

Impulse725

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Scars said you're either for or against being neutral, not for gamergate (or some other cause).

No one's neutral about the concept of neutrality.
 

Vault101

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....I don't know if that's how you spell neutral....

OT: it isn't, really sometimes its better not to bother with these things

...however pulling a "middle ground is always right" I would disagree with
 

A_Parked_Car

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I only have the vaguest idea what the whole 'GamerGate' thing is about and I can't really be bothered to find out more to be honest. I keep up with real world military/strategic issues and those are stressful and depressing enough for me, so I don't need to try and keep up with a whole other mess.

Being neutral about an issue isn't always the best thing, but it depends on the issue and if said person is actually informed about it.