Mick Golden Blood said:
runic knight said:
Ah yes the "Life's not fair" defense. Because pretending you actually know something you don't (this being cheating on a test, forging documents on a resume, etc.) is perfectly justifiable so long as bad things happened to you previously. I mean it must also mean you can break laws to (in some cases, cheating actually is) because, as you said, it is meaninglessly in the end so screw it, lets make even more unfair and try to feebly justify selfish actions.
You lack reading comprehension.
Remember the part where I said "nothing is wrong, nothing is right" ? Hmmm... I wonder what that means. I never tried to justify anything. I simply explained it from my own perspective, period. Whether or not it sounds like a justification is for you to decide but that was not my intent, especially since at the end of it I say so...
Nor did I say anything about something bad being a requirement to justify anything.
Not to mention "you don't have to like it, or the people who do it". I'm not judging anything here, yet you attack me as if I am.
the problem here is that the defense is based on an unstated aspect which you ignore when I bring it up here. And yes, your perspective here comes off as a defense of the action itself, regardless how you try to avoid stating it as such. At the very least you come off as a weak devil's advocate, though even coming at it like that, it would still merit a rebuttal.
Keep telling yourself that. I will never agree with this. So many people work hard but live in squalor for the entirety of their lives. If this was true there would be a much larger amount of well-off people than there is now.
I wonder how hard those children in africa work in those mines... Or being forced to fight in wars at the age of 8...
Luck has a vital importance. I will agree that the cards dealt are not equal. However, in any given location, especially in the first world, there is a connection between effort plus motivation and quality of life. You look at the outliers in the data and draw your conclusion from them. Yes, it does suck the world itself is unfair. Yes it does suck that african kids are screwed over. That doesn't mean one should abandon effort for cheating, or try to present it as anything but what it is: a selfish endeavor that, in your case here, attempts to gain some sort of fairness by disregarding the rules for an advantage to counter whatever disadvantages perceived.
See, that is the problem here. I'm not saying, nor have I ever, that Effort = reward. I am saying that effort and motivation, even beyond natural talent itself, will help. So even among those war children, the ones who put effort in and are motivate are more likely to get farther in life then the ones who are not. Sad, but that was what I was arguing here.
And, I would like to point out that there ARE far, far more well off people now. You know, pretty much the entire first world, for instance, which had to build itself up over generations of people working and putting in effort. Africa is a sad case, but it doesn't change that effort can and does influence ones life in the environment in which they live.
hmm... let's zoom in on this:
that is the flaw here. You whine about life not being fair yet you base your conclusion on a concept that people are entitled to some degree of fair return.
Tell me where I said that. Go on. Do it. I never hinted at such a thing.
You implied it when you made the case that cheating was a means to balance out injustice done to someone. The idea it is to balance things out suggests that balance is suppose to be there, that fairness is entitled. It is not. You didn't say it, but your argument rested on it. Otherwise you would have no case at all and no reason to bring up the injustice in people's lives in relation to cheating. You bring it up because you perceive it as a means to balance the playing field. That itself draws on the notion the playing field is meant to be balanced. Thus, you make the case that people are entitled to some degree of fair, as justified by the notion that cheating for some people is somehow better then others based on their lack of natural talent.
Neither did I "whine" about anything. I stated how I saw things. Is everything whining these days? I said people can do what they can to enjoy life in whatever way they must. That's it. Whatever follows afterwards is on them, but people wouldn't do these things if they didn't think it would benefit them/make them happy. "You can do it, sure. but I wouldn't do it myself/advise it."
Really, I just don't believe in this arbitrary right and wrong bull-shit. That's brainwashing you get from the society you grow up in. In other societies they literally teach kids how to cheat and be as deceptive as possible because that's what they must do to survive. To repeat: It's a tool, nothing more. Labeling it as inherently wrong is fucking ignorant.
Firstly, it is not "arbitrary". There are consistent social rules for a reason, and while I would certainly not say you should always follow them blindly, cheating is a pretty damn clear cut "wrong" thing most of the time for a rather simple reason. Cheating is a bypass of rules or requirements, or of a test of one's knowledge and skill. This means you are either gaining trust under false pretenses, which is bad for a society that works together and relies on honesty there (like say, doctors, lawyers, etc.), lying to oneself about one's skill, or circumventing requirements in order to accomplish something that would otherwise require passing.
And no, your post was taking the stance of "yeah, you can do it, after all, you have to balance out your lack of talent some how." Societies, all of them, have certain rules and structure that stems from sociology and our own natural impulses as social creatures. Trust is one of these, and by default, dishonesty and cheating, is very well ingrained as a negative when one is lying to the rest of the group for selfishness. Those classes where they teach them to lie, do they not also tell them exceptions towards whoever is in power? I know religions that encourage lieing to enemies or other groups. Hell, Scientology says to lie through your teeth if it helps the religion, but within their own doors, it is still "bad". Lying is a tool, you are right. But cheating is lying with a twist. It is a breach of rules of a society through deception. In that regard, it is disregarding the society as a larger entity for personal gain, and as others have mentioned, that can be dangerous not only to oneself, but to others. A pilot who cheats and can't really fly is a dangerous thing. And engineer who cheats and can't do the math is a dangerous thing. This complaint about things being "arbitrary" without demonstrating much of a grasp of why they are there in the first place, that is whining and why I called it such.
By the way, you can stop being aggressive now. I don't like dealing with people like that.
And get off that high horse.
Aggressive? My my, I add some snark and the butthurt begins. I'm sorry you found out about african orphans and it crushed your world view into some cynical "what is wrong or right anymore" thing, but there is reasons why I argue these points beyond just the society in which I live. There is more underlying aspects in sociology and in human psychology. There is evolutionary precedent and reason. There is basic hazards to look at. You're damn right I will be a little snappish, and when you come back pissing and moaning about how life is unfair and rules are arbitrary, and start saying people are brainwashed, I smell some anarchist bullshit theory here and I will let some of my frustration shine through. Just a little.
