Why is it Magic and Science/Technology can't ever seem to coexist?

[TheUsername0131]

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" the Eberron setting uses Utility Magic on a society-wide scale. Use of Magitek is widespread and "working class" spellcasters such as magewrights earn their livings by providing everyday spellcasting services. There is even a spell called Magecraft, whose sole function is to improve the quality of products being created by ordinary craftsmen. The dragonmarked houses are basically corporations whose role in society is to provide magic-based services up to and including the mass-production of consumer goods using magical methods. Thus the market prices for many goods (such as swords) is fixed because House Cannith, with controls magical manufacturing, has imposed standardized pricing. "
- http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicTool



But the reverse is also true. Without Dungeons & Dragons'® Necromancy, there are other means by which you may 'meddle with bones.' Cybernetics utilising the bones as a scaffold and morphology from which to operate on. Regrow and grafting tissue and halting decay with unorthodox biomedical methods.

The true source of such power is:

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A keen mind that discerns the nature of things. This is your greatest assert first and foremost. Good health and ample opportunity notwithstanding.

Your shall work to discover some means to subvert existing or remnants of autonomous systems can extend well beyond your usual means of meat puppetry.

Finding kinship with those that share your overpowering desire to master the forbidden and secret arts shunned by the rest of world An insatiable appetite for the forbidden, fascinated by the obscure. The itch that needs to be scratched to unravel all the dark, hidden mysteries of the cosmos.

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Welcome to your first year of college.

 

[TheUsername0131]

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"Magic is just the idiot's word for science. Science relies on tested facts, not prattling nonsense. Now stand over there while I power up my neural diatomic wavelength nullifier."
- Dr. Shark, The Non-Adventures of Wonderella

Science is the ability to shape, control, harness, and utilize forces that infuse the world and compose our structure. It is based on the principle that, through the use of understanding, study, experimentation, and refined resources of requisite application, these forces can be controlled.

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See this branch? I pick a few leaves off of it. It is now a club. It is also a deterrent and instigator of violence at my discretion.

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See this fish? You would, if I didn?t use the club to beat you unconscious and steal it from you. My lineage shall endure the ag- *Was promptly killed by a crouching tiger.* Ogg died in 1,749,326 B.C. So did the man he had beaten unconscious.*

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I tend to fluff magic (in my TRPGs) as more of a "force of will" (almost, but not quite psionics),

Feel free to elaborate.

 

[TheUsername0131]

That is all very well and good. But you underestimate a very potent power:

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Finance Is Magic

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Right. I usually increase the project overhead by 5-15% in the planning process when determining initial feasibility. Otherwise,, the unexpected expenses, setbacks, and losses can push an otherwise-profitable project into the red. If it can't handle 5-15% I take the reasonable route and either reinvest in already-profitable existing ventures or move on to a more durable project.

How do you handle your initial ERP?

 

[william12123]

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I tend to fluff magic (in my TRPGs) as more of a "force of will" (almost, but not quite psionics),

Feel free to elaborate.

Note: this is all metaphysical fluff, and how I interpret magic in D&D/pathfinder/a number of other systems. It's not cannon, it's just how I like to interpret it. I'm also working on a setting idea built around it.

The basic notion is generalized psionics. All sentients have (VERY LIMITED) inner psionic power, which I refer to a "force of will", where you can, by "imposing" your will on the universe, have it produce a predictable effect. It's too little for 99.9% of folks, but it's still there.

Magic: magic-users (wizard/sorcerers/maguses/etc.) are user of "outer" power. Using the limited psionic power available to them, they tap into the natural currents of energy. They develop a strong understanding of HOW that energy flows, and HOW to manipulate it as effectively as possible (with wizards "learning" how the universe works to manipulate it, and sorcerers "intuitively" knowing how certain parts of it work).

Psionics/ki: These are users of "inner" power. They have access to an unusual quantity of "force of will" and "flow" it out of themselves to mess with the universe at large. Understanding can still be important to use that energy effectively.

Basically, a "magic-user" alters the "flow" of universal energy (be it heat, electrical, magnetic, etc.) to create desirable effects; a psion create a greater flow stemming from themselves to alter the universe.

Note: I do have some more stuff of how this works with other themes (namely: gods: enormous psychic batteries leaching off the week "force of will" of their followers) but it needs some fleshing out. All of this is "understandable" though only wizards & certain others take the time to catalogue it. It still is a bit more mystical than I like, with "force of will" replacing magic. Here's my definition:

"force of will": a power available to almost all sentient beings, which allows them to influence the universe around them. In some individuals, the force of will is merely a mental "drive" that pushes them to do more (like build a bridge, a dam, any accomplishment). In some few individuals, this force of will is so strong that they can use it to submit the world around them through sheer desire. Others can tap into their limited force of will, subtly altering the world and producing tremendous effects. While there is no formal understanding of the source of such power, there is ardent study to better understand it.

Anyway, this is me messing around with worldbuilding. It's an idea I like, BUT it needs fleshing out.

 

[Aramis Night]

The old Rifts RPG was a terrible game because it was tethered to Palladium's unwieldy ruleset and narcissistic management, but their idea of techno-mages was quite interesting. I got out of Rifts early when my friend who GMed it stopped buying books because we were all tired of the insane imbalances and keeping track of every nick and scratch characters took, so I don't know if they ever went somewhere interesting with it.

It was such a neat idea, but it always seemed to have more potential than the game ever did with it. You've got these people who can put spells into stuff and use them like tools, and the best idea the game can come up with is a Telekinetic Machine gun that sprays magic instead of bullets? Come on! I hear they expanded the idea more in later supplements, but whatever- too little, too late.

I was actually going to bring RIFTS up. You are right about the game system having issues. But I loved how much detail went into coming up with all of these magic and hi tech/science resources co-existing and in some cases combining(technowizardy). They actually did get a lot more imaginative with coming up with techno wizard devices. It is actually pretty rare that I see anything in sci-fi or fantasy without being able to reference something similar if not identical in RIFTS. I no longer play the game(former GM), but I still collect the books simply because I love the background info and ongoing storylines going on everywhere. I like how they have managed to keep a balance between science and the supernatural, where one does not automatically trump the other.

Also BABYLON 5 and Farscape had a bit of magic done in ways that I liked in their series. They did mostly focus on tech, but the magic elements were well done.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

what annoys me though, is the lazyness of it. I seem to think Humans in the real world, even if we could just create fireballs or levitate an object, we'd still demand a reason for WHY we can do it. Perhaps we'd choose a religious reason, but even then we'd still question that. Every character in fantasy just seems like a moron that takes everything at face value, and I hate that. I need a character like MassEffect's Mordin, constantly curious.

A great many works do explore, at least in some capacity, how magic works. D&D for example gave a number of sources of magic: divine (a god decides to intervene on your behalf), arcane (calling upon the weave - a form of energy underlying most of the known realms. Technically, this is just divine again since the weave was created by a God), demonic (a demon intervenes on your behalf) and so forth. Mistborn tells us the source of the three systems of magic are from the various gods and includes a fairly consistent system of rules that, for the most part at least, simply lacks a precise explanation of the mechanism that causes it to function. The Kingkiller Chronicles has a number of magical systems but at their heart is the presumption that the world as you know it exists as it does largely because of innate belief. Willpower alone is sufficient (with some source of energy) to influence the world around you. For more powerful forms of magic there is the idea that every object that makes up the world has a true name - a description that is so complete that knowing that name is sufficient to bend it to your will. Shadowrun (where magic and technology intersect) offers little true explanation of magic but much of the universe's world is concerned with studying that very question.

 

[zerragonoss]

Magic (at least magic coming out of cosmologies based on medieval European mythology) and technology don't get along because they're politically opposing systems.

Technology is egalitarian. I build a crossbow, and it doesn't matter who I give it to, it's always going to function exactly the same. It's a democracy where everyone has equal potential. Magic, however, is elitist. Most people can't use it- otherwise we wouldn't think of it as magic. Only special people can use it, and though these people may spend their lives studying to master it, the initial gift doesn't come from their effort, but their birthright to be magical. It's called "the gift", because it's a destiny granted by forces beyond human comprehension that is not given equally to all people. Magic then is a kind of monarchy, or a system where certain people are better than others because of their birth, and not because of any meaningful choice they've made.

Now, I'd wager that 90% of writers don't even think about this dichotomy. But subconsciously, they have to be aware of it. Harry Potter wouldn't be half so compelling if every Johnny 6-pack on his street was equally capable of magic. And so that subconscious conflict inevitably becomes literary conflict. We all secretly wish to be the chosen one who is better than everyone else without having to put in the work to be that person. But in the end, we all know that wish is incompatible with the modern world we live in.

I Agree this is one of the common underlying things, though I would say aristocratic is more accurate than more than monarchistic. (For those who don't know aristocracy originally meant rule by the best, which only quickly devolved into rule by the rich and powerful.) Semantics aside yes it is often more about creating a world in which some people are special if the writer does not watch it.

Its also worth notating that many fantasy realms are in some way post apocalyptic, their is almost always a past race or kingdom that took magic to far and got punished for it somehow, a common thing so that all those ancient ruins and magical micguffins can exist. So you are almost always in a anti advancement and politically unstable period.

I think you missed the point just a bit. A gun requires a twitch of a finger and can possibly hit one person, maybe even fatally. A wand requires the flick of a finger (or less if you're Dumbledore or Voldemort) and can act as a flamethrower, immobilizer, transmutation device, rocket launcher, weather control device, megaphone, mind control device, levitator, portable hand, instant lockpick and the list goes on and also never runs out of bullets. Why would a wizard want a gun? It's like asking why you never see people in Star Trek choose a slingshot over a phaser.

Why not both, a wand is one handed and so is a pistol their is really no reason to not expand you options and have a very effective possibly unknown weapon on you.

 

[TheUsername0131]

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ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® The Complete Psionics Handbook

All psionic powers are grouped into six disciplines: clairsentience (expanded senses), psy-chokinesis (moving matter through space), psychometabolism (altering the body), psy-choportation (psionic travel), telepathy (mind-to-mind contact), and metapsionics (an advanced discipline). Within each discipline are major powers, called "sciences," and minor powers, called "devotions" Characters can only learn powers from the disciplines they have access to. At 1st level, a character has access to only one discipline, but with experience he gains access to more.

Magical effects are produced externally by manipulating outside forces. The power does not come from inside the wizard or priest but from somewhere else. Psionics is the complete opposite of this. The psionicist shapes, controls, harnesses, and utilizes natural forces that infuse his own being. His effort is focused inward rather than outward. He must be completely in touch with and aware of even the tiniest workings of his body and mind. This type of knowledge comes from long and intense meditation coupled with physical extremes. The psionicist finds enlightenment in both complete exhaustion and complete relaxation, in both pain and pleasure. The mind and body are only parts of a much greater unity. Indeed, discussing one without the other, as so many people do, seems nonsensical to a psionicist; they cannot be separated. The body produces energy and vitality, the mind gives it shape and reality. Neither does the psionicist study or pray for his powers. He carries them with him wherever he goes. As long as his mind and body are rested-i.e., as long as he has not depleted his psionic strength-his powers are available to him. More than a character of any other class, the psionicist is self-contained. Unlike the fighter and thief, he needs no weapons or tools to practice his art. Unlike the priest, he needs no deity. Unlike the wizard, he relies on no outside energies. His power comes from within, and he alone gives it shape. The psionicist strives to unite every aspect of his self into a single, powerful whole. He looks inward to the essence of his own being, and gains control of his subconscious. Through extraordinary discipline, contemplation, and self-awareness, he unlocks the full potential of his mind.

The pursuit of psionics requires strict mental and physical discipline, so the psionicist has two prime requisites: Wisdom and Constitution. Wisdom-the measure of enlightenment and willpower-is the psionicist's primary mental characteristic, not Intelligence. Reasoning and memory (two hallmarks of Intelligence) are indeed crucial to this class. However, the essence of psionic ability is the understanding and mastery of the inner self. Although psionic powers are centered in the mind, acquiring and controlling those powers demands physical fitness. Meditative study places tremendous physical strain on the psionicist, not to mention the sheer drain of projecting psychic energy out of ones body. The psionicist need not be muscular, or even exceptionally strong, but he must maintain his health and fitness at a high level to fully exercise his powers. That's why Constitution is also a prime requisite for psionicists.


*Clairsentient powers allow characters to gain knowledge that is beyond the normal capacity of human senses. For example, some clairsentients can see and hear events that are miles distant, while others can sense poison.

*Psychokinetic powers move objects- from molecules to missiles-across space. A psychokineticist can throw a rock without touching it, or agitate molecules in a piece of paper until it bursts into flame.

*Psychometabolic powers affect the body. Biofeedback, healing, and shape-changing are just a few of the powers known.

*Psychoportive powers move characters or creatures from one location to another without crossing space. The traveler simply ceases to exist in one location, and begins to exist somewhere else. He may even travel to another plane of existence or to another time.

*Telepathic powers involve direct contact between two or more minds. Examples include mind reading, personality swapping, and psychic attacks.

*Metapsionic powers amplify, augment, or enhance other psionic abilities. This is an advanced, demanding discipline.

 

[Kotaro]

There are settings where technology and magic coexist. Read the Incarnations of Immortality series by Piers Anthony (well, books 1-7 anyway). It's an alternate history in which humankind rediscovered magic. By the time the books take place, for example, airplanes share their airspace with flying carpets, there are jewelry stores that specialize in enchanted pieces, and so on. It makes for an interesting setting, even if most of the time it doesn't affect the plot as much as you would think.

 

[JimB]

I'm not at all sure what your complaint is, SaneAmongInsane, so I'm going to answer a few different ways.

In fiction, magic and science rarely coexist because they serve exactly the same purpose to the plot, just skinned differently. For example, I've never seen (or read) Eragon, but I'm told it is exactly the same plot, note for note in some cases, as Star Wars: a New Hope, but with a dragon instead of an X-Wing and a magic sword instead of a lightsabre. It works on pretty much any movie, though. For example, nothing about the plot or the characters' personalities would change if Tony Stark was a wizard instead of a weapons inventor, changing the electromagnet in his chest to a magic amulet; the only thing that would change is the Iron Man suit would probably look more fantastical. Likewise, you could replace the technobabble in pretty much any episode of a Star Trek show to magibabble ("the transporters can't penetrate the atmospheric disturbance" becomes "our teleportation pods are being scrambled by fluctuations in the aether," or "set phasers to stun" becomes "prepare a charge of a sleep spell in your wand," and either way, the story remains the same).

Magic and science also rarely coexist in the same world within a story because they clutter one another up. For them to exist as separate entities, one needs to define what magic is and how it differs from science. This generally means magic has to be a process that cannot easily be studied or quantified because the results of magical efforts cannot be reliably repeated under controlled conditions; when it can, we come back to magic being just a reskinned version of technology. When there is a distinct difference, a story will have to go out of its way to make sure people understand why magic is either superior to science despite its unreliability or why it is still useful enough to bother pursuing despite its inferiority to science. It creates questions that I have personally never seen add to the story but rather act to harm willing suspension of disbelief, so if you're going to use magic at all, it's generally best to do so in a way that expects the audience to simply accept it as a baseline premise of the world, like just accepting that spider powers let you cling to a wall even when every inch of your skin is covered in what looks like a latex outfit or super strength lets you lift up a car even though the car by all rights out to collapse under its own weight.

I hope either of those answers help. But not both answers! Don't get greedy!

 

[Chaud]

In a semi-offtopic, I could mention that there is at least one series of games that usually use an interesting mix of science and magic, the "Tales of" series. For example, in Tales of Vesperia, there are blastias, which are described as an ancient civilization's technology with a wide array of capabilities - such as providing water, powering ships, or creating barriers around major cities and towns to protect Them from monsters.

In Tales of the Abyss, there are "fonons", elementary particles used for both immediate effects (such as creating a fireball) but also to serve as an engine for large vehicles and a myriad of other things. Fonons are described in great detail in the game, it's practically considered as a field of scientific study, at least, more than as a form of magic.

I always found it interesting, to realize the applications of fonons on a "day-to-day" scale, showing how something we call "magic" ends up being not much different from technology from the moment that there are studies to determine the basic laws behind it, allowing it's application in a common way.