Why is RTS so heartless?

[Soviet Heavy]

Total War. Just Total War.

Now, it isn't quite on a personal level, but your generals can gain attributes depending on what actions they take. These actions then affect their soldiers and morale respectively. A dread lord might be the deadliest unit in your army, but his attributes could give him a lower leadership score. Butchering thousands of innocents or prisoners affects your reputation, and fighting under such a merciless leader can make your men wary.

The other thing is with unit experience. Gold Chevron warriors are borderline unstoppable, and you will grow attached to them. These guys will be your frontline soldiers, smashing apart the enemy. You will want to conserve them for pivotal battles, especially when the Horde Nations arrive. There, it is better to weaken the hordes with dozens of weaker armies before delivering the killing blow.

 

[Uncreation]

That's kind of a silly question. RTS games are a sort of simulation of war (note that i say sort of) from a generals/commanders/warlord/alien-overlords point of view. And noone in that position ever cares about the underlings.

 

[KingofMadCows]

Some games, like Dawn of War, have a morale system where if you lose troops, your army becomes demoralized and less effective.

There are also games with veterancy systems, like the C&C games, where units get stronger the more enemies they kill so you have an incentive to keep them alive.

 

[Trivun]

See title.

Simply put, I'm just a bit frustrated about how RTS games as a whole seem to be "Go kill stuff, who cares about friendly casualties?" It's focused as a genre on just doing lots of damage, and never on what your men think and feel. Why is that? Why is there not a decent, character-driven RTS game where you are encouraged to look after your troops, but countless games where you are pretty much encouraged to not give a rat's behind about them?

Really the only game that comes close to character-driven RTS is a title called "Codename Panzers", and even then whatever importance you give your troops depends on you, there is no inherent importance on keeping them alive, which bugs me severely.

So, your thoughts? Why is RTS so cold and heartless, and why has nobody saw fit to try and change it?

To be fair, I think the Total War games come close to evoking the kind of feeling you want. If you lose mass amounts of forces, even if you win the fight, it does put you at a big disadvantage until you can train more troops, which takes several turns to do in any useful capacity. I'm playing a run through of Medieval 2 at the moment, and started as England. During my (still ongoing) quest to beat back the Scottish, my main priority, I ended up having to attack Dublin in waves to draw out my enemies, and I did feel quite bad about that. Caernarvon was using up all its reinfocements being ferried across the Irish Sea to bolster my troops, and although I did eventually take Dublin (and Ireland) it was a hollow victory. Unfortunately, I may have to do the same with Edinburgh now, which will leave me at heavy risk of a seaborne attack from those pesky Holy Roman Empire types...

But yeah, I see what you mean. I personally try to win RTSs with as few casualties as possible, but a lot of the time that's not very feasible (I'm looking at you, Dawn of War. And the first C&C, too...). I would love to see a non-Total War RTS game where keeping your troops alive is as important a priority as completing the regular objectives as well...

 

[Doc Theta Sigma]

Every zergling lost brings victory closer for the Swarm.

 

[Valanthe]

Well the only game that I've seen which comes close to this is Medieval 2 Total War. It doesn't make you care about the little guys so much, but because of 'Hero' units being recruited from within your ranks, and the interactions of your family, you end up following this long epic saga of a Dynasty, you get cases of a peasant ilitia who holds the line against impossible odds, the only survivor of that regiment got promoted to Captain, and through victories in battle over the next decade, eventually became a well known and feared general of the Irish Empire, who catches the attention of your princess, and eventually, through luck and wit, ends up ruling the Empire through a glorious Golden age.


Or maybe that only happens to me. Anyway, as much as it'd be cool to have a game focus on the little guys, I don't think we'll see it any time soon, but if someone pulls it off, I'll be handing them all my money.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

Actually, now that I think about it, in Command and Conquer 3 Tiberium Wars, the soldiers were groups of men, and their health was measured by how many of them there were.
You got a 10 guys for the basic infantry squad, and less as they got more elite. The GDI snipers operated in pairs, and had really plucky lines... until one of them got killed. Then the quotes of the remaining one became really panicky. I usually went to quite a bit of trouble to get the single snipers back to base.

And when you had a fully promoted unit you always took good care of it, although that was more to do with it's better combat abilities than characterisation.

 

[MercurySteam]

So, your thoughts? Why is RTS so cold and heartless, and why has nobody saw fit to try and change it?

Why? Just why? How they hell would you be able to micro manage and effiecently go to battle when your squads stop to mourn a fallen comrade every time somebody died? It's like shedding a tear every time somebody in your squad died when playing BF3. Becuase replacing them is so easy, there's no reason to get worked up about it.

Besides, as the commander of an army it's your job to send me to die. Your job will always be to send them to places where they can die. Never be afraid to spend men, but never waste them.

Cookie for reference.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Well the only game that I've seen which comes close to this is Medieval 2 Total War. It doesn't make you care about the little guys so much, but because of 'Hero' units being recruited from within your ranks, and the interactions of your family, you end up following this long epic saga of a Dynasty, you get cases of a peasant ilitia who holds the line against impossible odds, the only survivor of that regiment got promoted to Captain, and through victories in battle over the next decade, eventually became a well known and feared general of the Irish Empire, who catches the attention of your princess, and eventually, through luck and wit, ends up ruling the Empire through a glorious Golden age.


Or maybe that only happens to me. Anyway, as much as it'd be cool to have a game focus on the little guys, I don't think we'll see it any time soon, but if someone pulls it off, I'll be handing them all my money.

It's amazing how much political backstabbing an epic journeys can play across a game of Total War with the player none the wiser, unless they know where to look.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Besides, as the commander of an army it's your job to send me to die. Your job will always be to send them to places where they can die. Never be afraid to spend men, but never waste them.

Cookie for reference.

Few.... FEW!? THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF GUARDSMEN ON TYPHON! Good men, servin' the Emperah, and you let them all die!

 

[MercurySteam]

Few.... FEW!? THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF GUARDSMEN ON TYPHON! Good men, servin' the Emperah, and you let them all die!

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's "Good men, servin' the Emperah, all gone, because of your incompetence."

.
.
.
"You think I'm incompetent?"

 

[Monkeyman O'Brien]

Warhammer: Dark Omen. You lose a squad and they are gone for good. Replacing each man in a squad is horribly expensive.

But eh, its war. You job is to send men to die. Their job is to die for the Emperor and hold the fucking line.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Few.... FEW!? THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF GUARDSMEN ON TYPHON! Good men, servin' the Emperah, and you let them all die!

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's "Good men, servin' the Emperah, all gone, because of your incompetence."

.
.
.
"You think I'm incompetent?"

Nono, its "You killed them all Castor, ALL OF THEM, because of your incompetence!"

 

[Wereduck]

The OP should try out Original War and the Earth 2140 series. Both were true & proper RTS' with units that were persistent between missions and leveled over the course of the campaign. They gave you a real incentive to care about unit survival - much more than the more common morale factor.

 

[ironkex]

It is better to die for the Emperor than to live for yourself.

 

[MercurySteam]

Nono, its "You killed them all Castor, ALL OF THEM, because of your incompetence!"

Playing another Imperial Guard campaign tonight so I'll confim it then. Have played it many times but still don't know it word for word.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

Story driven RTS? Halo Wars.

I know some people may not see it as a true RTS because it was Halo or it was on Xbox, but I felt attached to the main character, supporting characters and the fair few Spartans you get, they even tell you their names! I cared immensely if they lived or died, I protected them at the expense of other nameless units.

As for the not caring about sending waves of pixels to head butt more pixels it's because... well you know what I'm going to say.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Nono, its "You killed them all Castor, ALL OF THEM, because of your incompetence!"

Playing another Imperial Guard campaign tonight so I'll confim it then. Have played it many times but still don't know it word for word.

Nah, it's right here.

Also sums up how RTS can play at empathy.

 

[Vault101]

hey..

I care VERY MUCH for my blue short wearing comarades in age of empires..thankyouverymuch

I just make it clear that i they do not work then they get to be arrow fodder

"rogan?"
"I wont have any complaints...get back to work!"

 

[Hawk eye1466]

I always wondered why the troops wouldn't eventually refuse to walk directly into enemy cannon fire just so your artillery could shell the entire place. I was not the most careful of general's for Age of Empire 3. Those poor redcoats I had such rediclous casualty rates, I was always expecting them to revolt or something.

OP because no studio wants to risk making such a game because if they get any of it wrong their already small audience will turn to nothing.