Why is there such a kneejerk reaction to "indie games"?

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Andy of Comix Inc

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Lo there, Weebl. I mean Escapist.

I've long been a fan of independent game development. Nevermind all the faff about being artistically free and having no associations to worry about and majority shareholders 'n gunk; it seems to me, the only facet of modern gaming left today that enjoys a fiercely competitive market driven by innovation. But the term "indie game" nowadays tends to refer more to one or two-man, auter-designed projects. The sort of thing driven by blood, sweat, and tears, rather than budget, market and titties. And that's just really cool to me.

And yet there seems to be a group of wholly justified people who have an instant reaction to the term "indie". They're pretentious, they say. They're egotistical, they say. They're overrated, they say. It's probably true. Many games labelled with "indie" are all those things. Here's my issue - I don't know why they are negatives, per se.

I'd have thought that one man, working on one project for years at a time, sinking nothing but his own effort into the final project, would be entitled to be egotistical, pretentious, and overrated. Isn't that fair enough? I mean, he bought into his own project; aren't you basically doing the same thing? Isn't that what drives independent design?

I guess I'm just a little worried that indie gaming is seen as some kind of big boy's artists' club that only those with a Level 10 Pretentiousness Level can enter, when it's really just another facet of game design. A wholly fascinating facet, where developers have faces and you can invest in a character, almost, as much as a product. That interests me so much, and while I understand that some people don't like that sort of thing - when they buy a game, they buy a game, and the behind-the-scenes, the people behind the game, are just so much white noise - I don't understand why there are so many quick to dismiss such projects because of their attachment to a "scene".

I dunno. I'll probably get a perfectly reasonable and explanatory answer in the first reply. I mean, it could be the deliberate use of "retro" design, right? That grates a lot of people the wrong way. I like it, mind; it's indicative of the creator's generation and whatnot. Maybe that's the reason? Because they are such a product of an individual creator, as apposed to a cohesive, standalone whole? The kind of games that work better when you get invested in the development process, as apposed to just the game itself? Does that turn people off? Having to dig below the surface? ...but that doesn't qualify as "pretentious," then does it. Well maybe there is no specific thing, rather a whole lot of things that all blend together to form a common mindset.

Crikey, that got a bit tangential. Anyway. Me, question. You, answer/discuss. Go go gadget etc.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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You can create something without having your head up your own arse.

This tends to be apparent as soon as an indy dev opens their mouth. Not all of them, of course, but then again, the humble indy dev never gets any screen time.

Jonathan Blow, Phil Fish and Notch Persson are just a couple of examples of devs who made decent games, but then act as if they're the saviours of gaming, protecting us from the evils of triple A titles.

Make a good game?

Great!

Doesn't mean you can be an arse though.
 

More Fun To Compute

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I don't know, to me the experimentation seems to have been driven out from independent games. A lot of the most interesting stuff just gets ignored in favour of safe trad games with some sort of weak "artistic" message that people seem to associate with indie more than anything.

Too many "scenesters" have been too closely aligned with Sony and MS due to contracts or whatever so the "scene" thing looks like something that is fairly corporate.

And then we have the apple store which just sucks all the care and joy out of a lot of development turning it into an exercise of quickly churning out forgettable simplistic tat.
 

Andy of Comix Inc

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Daystar Clarion said:
Jonathan Blow, Phil Fish and Notch Persson are just a couple of examples of devs who made decent games, but then act as if they're the saviours of gaming, protecting us from the evils of triple A titles.
But, I don't know. I haven't observed enough of this. Phil Fish, maybe, but he comes off more as genuinely deranged than up his arse.

I've seen loud indie devs, and outspoken indie devs, but... acting like saviors of gaming? They're insipidly and blindly proud of their work, maybe. That's what happens. You get massive blind spots to everything else. I actually daresay a lot of it is expectations placed on them by critics and gamers, as apposed to any kind of self-entitlement. And hell. A lot of it is almost deserved.

There are so many nightmare stories of developers having to deal with Microsoft to get their game onto the Xbox Live Arcade... are they going to come out of that saying "oh boy! Microsoft is amazing and AAA game development is totally not a system the sucks you in, chews you up and spits you out!" ...no. They're going to be bitter about it.

I dunno. As long as they come off as real people and not PR stuntmen, I don't mind if they're up their arse. It's kind of required if you're going to survive. As you say - the humble indie dev gets no time. ...but that is a very good point, and I absolutely agree in theory. Again, I just don't see how it's that much of a negative.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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Andy of Comix Inc said:
Daystar Clarion said:
Jonathan Blow, Phil Fish and Notch Persson are just a couple of examples of devs who made decent games, but then act as if they're the saviours of gaming, protecting us from the evils of triple A titles.
But, I don't know. I haven't observed enough of this. Phil Fish, maybe, but he comes off more as genuinely deranged than up his arse.

I've seen loud indie devs, and outspoken indie devs, but... acting like saviors of gaming? They're insipidly and blindly proud of their work, maybe. That's what happens. You get massive blind spots to everything else. I actually daresay a lot of it is expectations placed on them by critics and gamers, as apposed to any kind of self-entitlement. And hell. A lot of it is almost deserved.

There are so many nightmare stories of developers having to deal with Microsoft to get their game onto the Xbox Live Arcade... are they going to come out of that saying "oh boy! Microsoft is amazing and AAA game development is totally not a system the sucks you in, chews you up and spits you out!" ...no. They're going to be bitter about it.

I dunno. As long as they come off as real people and not PR stuntmen, I don't mind if they're up their arse. It's kind of required if you're going to survive. As you say - the humble indie dev gets no time. ...but that is a very good point, and I absolutely agree in theory. Again, I just don't see how it's that much of a negative.
It may just be a cultural thing, but I don't consider talking up your own work while simultaneously talking down someone else's to be in good taste.

You can be confident in your own work and still be humble, it's all about the language you use.
 

Andy of Comix Inc

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Daystar Clarion said:
It may just be a cultural thing, but I don't consider talking up your own work while simultaneously talking down someone else's to be in good taste.

You can be confident in your own work and still be humble, it's all about the language you use.
Goes back to my first thought - I haven't observed enough of that. Phil Fish, yes. But like I said, he is likely genuinely deranged. You watch videos of him, he's some kind of crazy-ass manic depressive. But there, that's probably where my respect for him comes from. He's broken inside, so utterly broken, and holds onto his projects as sole reason for existence. I picked up Fez just this weekend, and it's sickeningly adorable in every part of its design. It made me think... this is the kind of game a child trapped in the body of an adult would make. The man is troubled. So I feel bad about holding his words against him. So I don't. My choice, I guess.

Beyond Fish, I haven't heard many people talk down specific projects or industries. Anti-AAA seems justified because it's against a sort of invisible machine-like hivemind as apposed to an individual. If you have any particularly insidious examples, go ahead and refresh my memory. I haven't seen enough of that to write off the whole "scene". I'm half convinced there is no scene. It's fabricated, so that people like Fish and Blow can be mentally cordoned off in a separate section to "real" videogames.

Again, you come up with real good points that I can't help with be conflicted in agreeing with. Is this what we call a "difference of opinion"...? o_o'
 

kingthrall

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Andy of Comix Inc said:
Lo there, Weebl. I mean Escapist.

I've long been a fan of independent game development. Nevermind all the faff about being artistically free and having no associations to worry about and majority shareholders 'n gunk; it seems to me, the only facet of modern gaming left today that enjoys a fiercely competitive market driven by innovation. But the term "indie game" nowadays tends to refer more to one or two-man, auter-designed projects. The sort of thing driven by blood, sweat, and tears, rather than budget, market and titties. And that's just really cool to me.

And yet there seems to be a group of wholly justified people who have an instant reaction to the term "indie". They're pretentious, they say. They're egotistical, they say. They're overrated, they say. It's probably true. Many games labelled with "indie" are all those things. Here's my issue - I don't know why they are negatives, per se.

I'd have thought that one man, working on one project for years at a time, sinking nothing but his own effort into the final project, would be entitled to be egotistical, pretentious, and overrated. Isn't that fair enough? I mean, he bought into his own project; aren't you basically doing the same thing? Isn't that what drives independent design?

I guess I'm just a little worried that indie gaming is seen as some kind of big boy's artists' club that only those with a Level 10 Pretentiousness Level can enter, when it's really just another facet of game design. A wholly fascinating facet, where developers have faces and you can invest in a character, almost, as much as a product. That interests me so much, and while I understand that some people don't like that sort of thing - when they buy a game, they buy a game, and the behind-the-scenes, the people behind the game, are just so much white noise - I don't understand why there are so many quick to dismiss such projects because of their attachment to a "scene".

I dunno. I'll probably get a perfectly reasonable and explanatory answer in the first reply. I mean, it could be the deliberate use of "retro" design, right? That grates a lot of people the wrong way. I like it, mind; it's indicative of the creator's generation and whatnot. Maybe that's the reason? Because they are such a product of an individual creator, as apposed to a cohesive, standalone whole? The kind of games that work better when you get invested in the development process, as apposed to just the game itself? Does that turn people off? Having to dig below the surface? ...but that doesn't qualify as "pretentious," then does it. Well maybe there is no specific thing, rather a whole lot of things that all blend together to form a common mindset.

Crikey, that got a bit tangential. Anyway. Me, question. You, answer/discuss. Go go gadget etc.
The thing is, they are over-rated. Too many indy games are similar to somthing like Angry birds with few features and are either moulded from other games such as the half life engine.

Of course there are a few great indy games but a lot of the indy tends not to be "indy" and merely a lesser replicant of other games. I would really like to see somthing not as childish like Torchlight come to fruition and enough of the survival horror games released. Botanica, Plants Vs Zombies are such examples of great games but not exactly Jaw dropping material.
 

Jdb

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I think this is just a temporary hiccup. Currently, the most popular independent games are also a combination of self important developers and "it's retro/art" excuses for low quality. However, there are a lot of upcoming titles with quality equal to or better than AAA games that will hopefully shake up the stereotype.
 

Total LOLige

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Some Indie developers remind me of Billy Corgan, they make something awesome and expect us to bow down and lick the shit of their shoes. Personally I don't see what's so great about indie games people are always saying how they are full of new ideas and imagination. I don't see it all I see is a bunch of platformers that are clones of each other. The only indie games I've liked are Super Meat Boy and Angry Fish(an angry birds rip off)
 

Aeshi

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Because Indie games aren't (for the most part) as successful and therefor worthy of sympathy.

It's just more Underdog worship, nobody would put up with them for a minute if it looked like they would actually be successful or their development team no longer fitted on a park bench
 

Terminate421

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Because apparently when the word "Indie" is mentioned it automatically means its good, gets entire Extra Credits episodes after it, loved by many and if it does too successful, it is shunned as being a sell out. AAA games then are always hated no matter how good they are or looked past the publisher.

Case in point, I mentioned I was interested in Dead Space 2, someone posted: "No no no! You need to play Amnesia! (Which is an Indie game!)" Amnesia just lost one customer thanks to that ignorant fuck because I already KNEW it was one and apparently that automatically made it god-like.

This site depresses me sometimes.
 

Doclector

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Well-
Daystar Clarion said:
You can create something without having your head up your own arse.

This tends to be apparent as soon as an indy dev opens their mouth. Not all of them, of course, but then again, the humble indy dev never gets any screen time.

Jonathan Blow, Phil Fish and Notch Persson are just a couple of examples of devs who made decent games, but then act as if they're the saviours of gaming, protecting us from the evils of triple A titles.

Make a good game?

Great!

Doesn't mean you can be an arse though.
...y'know, I didn't study media for three years (and counting) to have my words stolen.

Yeah, it sometimes pisses me off. Honestly, it's sometimes the fans who are the bigger problem. I went searching for some glimmer of hope that amnesia would be out on consoles at any point a while back, and I uncovered a load of bile and hatred from frictional games fans saying amnesia would be somehow instantly ruined by being on consoles. They said it'd be dumbed down, but why would we want that? If something is in demand on the consoles, clearly we want that, not a dumbed-down version of it.
 

lacktheknack

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Terminate421 said:
Because apparently when the word "Indie" is mentioned it automatically means its good, gets entire Extra Credits episodes after it, loved by many and if it does too successful, it is shunned as being a sell out. AAA games then are always hated no matter how good they are or looked past the publisher.

Case in point, I mentioned I was interested in Dead Space 2, someone posted: "No no no! You need to play Amnesia! (Which is an Indie game!)" Amnesia just lost one customer thanks to that ignorant fuck because I already KNEW it was one and apparently that automatically made it god-like.

This site depresses me sometimes.
You shouldn't write off games because the "wrong kind of person" recommended it. THAT'S depressing.

OT: There's a reaction to indies because the popular ones REALLY got overblown. It annoys people.

I could crow all day about how fantastic "The Binding of Isaac", "Dungeons of Dredmor", "DEFCON" and "Uplink" are, but lots of people will connect it to "It's like Braid, that somewhat overrated time platformer by that pretentious tool" or "Minecraft, the most overhyped game of all time ever", and automatically have negative connotations attached to it, even though Edmund McMillen, Gaslamp Games and Introversion are not pompous or overhyped in any fashion whatsoever (especially Introversion, who have been holding on by their teeth for YEARS now).
 

TehCookie

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I just seem them as overrated. People seem to hold them up on a pedestal since they were made without a publisher but I really don't think that should influence your opinion on the game or not. Not to mention a lot of them are highly praised for art and tone even if the gameplay is meh *cough*limbo*cough*. A game is a game, and they're at a disadvantage with limited funds but they have the advantage of creativity since they're not on a choker leash by a publisher.
 

lacktheknack

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Doclector said:
Honestly, it's sometimes the fans who are the bigger problem. I went searching for some glimmer of hope that amnesia would be out on consoles at any point a while back, and I uncovered a load of bile and hatred from frictional games fans saying amnesia would be somehow instantly ruined by being on consoles. They said it'd be dumbed down, but why would we want that? If something is in demand on the consoles, clearly we want that, not a dumbed-down version of it.
...And exactly how does one "dumb down" Amnesia, one of the simplest horror games in existence?