Why isn't casual gaming respected?
- Thread starter Adeoma
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We want you F2P players to stop going sniper on every fucking map.SpaceBat said:
We want you to stop thinking that you can be a combat medic.
We want you to stop trying to quickscope and complain when you can't.
We want you to actually use the fucking combat training thats right there.
We want you to stop mic spamming cause you think its funny.
We want you to learn how to play the damn game.
When you refer to "casual gaming" and presumably casual gamers, do you mean people who play casual games à la Farmville, Bejeweled and such, or do you mean people who play mainstream games casually, i.e. sporadically and for fun, without regard to score or efficiency? There's a huge, important difference between the two.
That said, I will assume you mean the Facebook gaming crowd.
First, I don't think there's a large contingent of casual gamers who go on to become mainstream gamers. For the most part, casual games are so different from mainstream games (casual games are mostly puzzle- or task-based, while mainstream games are mostly immersive and scenario-based) that there aren't really that many reasons for casual gamers to jump into mainstream games. It's hard to imagine how to say Bejeweled is childish - at worst it isn't interesting, at best it's a test of skill - and Farmville is hardly an immersive or imaginative experience, but Mass Effect can quickly get demoted to "Playing space captain like a 6 year-old boy" in the eyes of the non-gamer.
Sure, they might spend more time playing FarmVille than it takes to finish all of BioWare's games, but the stigma that surrounds mainstream gaming, the difference between casual and mainstream games, and the expense of mainstream games are all barriers to making that leap. So some gamers might see these casual gamers as cop-outs (I personally don't, however), or people who are co-opting gaming and making it more socially acceptable to game while also changing what it means to be a gamer. Some may make the leap, but how many 40 year-old women have gone from FarmVille to Dawn of War, or from Bejeweled to Dragon Age?
Second, the fact that people in the news media often conflate casual gaming with video games as a whole means that a space friendly to gaming is being constructed in the public mind, but it's a space that is centered around casual games - which means "mainstream" games will still be at the fringe of what is socially acceptable. Naturally, as gamers, we want people to both accept gaming in general as a pass-time, *and* to accept mainstream game genres (RTS, RPG, FPS, MMO, etc.) as being a valid pass-time. If society accepts games under the assumption that "games" means what we'd call "casual games", then we've made zero progress.
As it stands, "gaming" in the broadest sense may be becoming accepted, but non-gamers at the same time are beginning to see casual games as the "normal" games and *our* games as "fringe" or "hardcore" games. Us gamers who prefer intensive titles will continue to be at the fringe of the socially acceptable, which, as someone who wishes our interests were as mainstream as those of people who watch movies or television, is irritating.
I have nothing against casual games, not in the least. Why should I? But I don't like the media acting as though all games are the same thing. "Mainstream" games are narrative, artistic, simulated experience that immerse you into some scenario or another. Casual games are digitized board games with neat concepts. Both have their place, but to act as though they're all the same thing is to lose what makes each kind of game special.
That said, I will assume you mean the Facebook gaming crowd.
First, I don't think there's a large contingent of casual gamers who go on to become mainstream gamers. For the most part, casual games are so different from mainstream games (casual games are mostly puzzle- or task-based, while mainstream games are mostly immersive and scenario-based) that there aren't really that many reasons for casual gamers to jump into mainstream games. It's hard to imagine how to say Bejeweled is childish - at worst it isn't interesting, at best it's a test of skill - and Farmville is hardly an immersive or imaginative experience, but Mass Effect can quickly get demoted to "Playing space captain like a 6 year-old boy" in the eyes of the non-gamer.
Sure, they might spend more time playing FarmVille than it takes to finish all of BioWare's games, but the stigma that surrounds mainstream gaming, the difference between casual and mainstream games, and the expense of mainstream games are all barriers to making that leap. So some gamers might see these casual gamers as cop-outs (I personally don't, however), or people who are co-opting gaming and making it more socially acceptable to game while also changing what it means to be a gamer. Some may make the leap, but how many 40 year-old women have gone from FarmVille to Dawn of War, or from Bejeweled to Dragon Age?
Second, the fact that people in the news media often conflate casual gaming with video games as a whole means that a space friendly to gaming is being constructed in the public mind, but it's a space that is centered around casual games - which means "mainstream" games will still be at the fringe of what is socially acceptable. Naturally, as gamers, we want people to both accept gaming in general as a pass-time, *and* to accept mainstream game genres (RTS, RPG, FPS, MMO, etc.) as being a valid pass-time. If society accepts games under the assumption that "games" means what we'd call "casual games", then we've made zero progress.
As it stands, "gaming" in the broadest sense may be becoming accepted, but non-gamers at the same time are beginning to see casual games as the "normal" games and *our* games as "fringe" or "hardcore" games. Us gamers who prefer intensive titles will continue to be at the fringe of the socially acceptable, which, as someone who wishes our interests were as mainstream as those of people who watch movies or television, is irritating.
I have nothing against casual games, not in the least. Why should I? But I don't like the media acting as though all games are the same thing. "Mainstream" games are narrative, artistic, simulated experience that immerse you into some scenario or another. Casual games are digitized board games with neat concepts. Both have their place, but to act as though they're all the same thing is to lose what makes each kind of game special.
Anything can be considered a waste of time, serious business and or a means to make money. I'm a gamer yet I'm also and artist and a cook. Why draw a picture when you pull your phone and take a picture. Why would I consider getting better at cooking when there's fast food or I can pop something precooked in the microwave. I do this because the ends justify the means, I put in the effort and I feel rewarded afterwards. That's how "Hardcore" gamers feel thats how their minds work. When they put in that extra effort, learning better techniques and strategies as they play. When they finish they can look back and truly feel like their effort was worth the time wasted.Calm Sands said:
You don't seem to understand gaming mentality. Hardcore gamers want to lose they seek out a challenge and normally want someone or something to test their limits. If it's combat, puzzles, looking for items, platforming, etc. They want to see if the game can challenge them enough that they feel they spent their money wisely because to them a demo isn't enough. Casual gamers want to win they enjoy those small burst when they achieve victory yet they normally don't seek out a challenge they just play to play even if they suck all they care about is being able to play is enough for them.
Casual gaming is normally that you don't play a lot so when you play verses those Hardcore gamers that put the time in they see you as weak and not worth their time. Think about it if you're getting beaten over and over that's not fun for you the casual player, on the other hand its not fun at all for the hardcore player to just keep beating you with little resistance. Fun is a subjective word some enjoy just being able to participate while others want to be masters and take it to newer heights
Anything can be considered a waste of time, serious business and or a means to make money. I'm a gamer yet I'm also and artist and a cook. Why draw a picture when you pull your phone and take a picture. Why would I consider getting better at cooking when there's fast food or I can pop something precooked in the microwave. I do this because the ends justify the means, I put in the effort and I feel rewarded afterwards. That's how "Hardcore" gamers feel thats how their minds work. When they put in that extra effort, learning better techniques and strategies as they play. When they finish they can look back and truly feel like their effort was worth the time wasted.Calm Sands said:
You don't seem to understand gaming mentality. Hardcore gamers want to lose they seek out a challenge and normally want someone or something to test their limits. If it's combat, puzzles, looking for items, platforming, etc. They want to see if the game can challenge them enough that they feel they spent their money wisely because to them a demo isn't enough. Casual gamers want to win they enjoy those small burst when they achieve victory yet they normally don't seek out a challenge they just play to play even if they suck all they care about is being able to play is enough for them.
Casual gaming is normally that you don't play a lot so when you play verses those Hardcore gamers that put the time in they see you as weak and not worth their time. Think about it if you're getting beaten over and over that's not fun for you the casual player, on the other hand its not fun at all for the hardcore player to just keep beating you with little resistance. Fun is a subjective word some enjoy just being able to participate while others want to be masters and take it to newer heights
I don't respect casual gamers. I don't respect hardcore gamers. I don't respect anyone because they play video games. It's a fun thing to do, it's a hobby, it can be an intensive hobby or it can be done casually.
But I don't care how good you are at LoL, or WoW, or CoD, or whatever, I will not respect you for it. Gaming is not respectable, it is a hobby.
A hardcore gamer is only a hardcore gamer when they define themselves as such. There is no test or criteria for being a hardcore gamer other than what hardcore gamers use to define themselves. Casual gamers too are defined by hardcore gamers. There is no test for casual gamers.
I suspect that many who seek to define themselves as hardcore gamers fit into the dreaded "gamer stereotype" of social outcasts who seek acceptance and belonging in a world where their perceived weaknesses do not define them. These people seek to define others within their "safe" worlds and seek to exclude others in the same way they feel alienated from the real world.
If gaming defines you, if your life resume includes gaming as an accomplishment or worse as part of your personality, then there is something wrong with you. Gaming is for fun, but it is no substitute for a well-lived life.
Go ahead and disagree with me. Say I'm stereotyping and that hardcore gamers have healthy lives outside of gaming worlds. But I won't accept your argument until I meet ONE person who defines him or her self as a hardcore gamer who isn't defined by gaming.
But I don't care how good you are at LoL, or WoW, or CoD, or whatever, I will not respect you for it. Gaming is not respectable, it is a hobby.
A hardcore gamer is only a hardcore gamer when they define themselves as such. There is no test or criteria for being a hardcore gamer other than what hardcore gamers use to define themselves. Casual gamers too are defined by hardcore gamers. There is no test for casual gamers.
I suspect that many who seek to define themselves as hardcore gamers fit into the dreaded "gamer stereotype" of social outcasts who seek acceptance and belonging in a world where their perceived weaknesses do not define them. These people seek to define others within their "safe" worlds and seek to exclude others in the same way they feel alienated from the real world.
If gaming defines you, if your life resume includes gaming as an accomplishment or worse as part of your personality, then there is something wrong with you. Gaming is for fun, but it is no substitute for a well-lived life.
Go ahead and disagree with me. Say I'm stereotyping and that hardcore gamers have healthy lives outside of gaming worlds. But I won't accept your argument until I meet ONE person who defines him or her self as a hardcore gamer who isn't defined by gaming.
As a casual its normally discouraging to play a hardcore player because its not fun to lose at that point in time and it'll take a while to get to their level. Normally they don't take petty on you because you just started playing because this is how they started playing themselves. normally they act harsh so it can spur you into playing more, learning what works and what doesn't in different situations. Sometimes this works creating a lot of hotblooded players willing to put in time and become future masters. While to others its pretty much a soul crushing experience. They think no matter how hard they try they'll never get good or be able to hold their own and have the fun they want when playing more versus more experienced players. As a casual player its much better to play with friends then with randoms on the internet because at lease your friends will try to ease you into it and they know you really aren't that good yet.Calm Sands said:
The casual players inspired by the hardcore might see them as a mentor helping them get better and they'll emulate their playstyle and or tactics. While the players that feel like they're never get better might become bitter that somebody treated them like that and they'll want to game to change to they'll be able to get into it easier.
IMO its the Jaded Hardcore players and the Bitter Casual players that are the biggest problem because most of the time its these two groups of people that clash and are the loudest amongst gamers. It's funny how these two are similar that they want games to work with them while forgetting there's other gamers out in the world as well.
The first two points are basically saying STOP TRAINING FOR CERTAIN CLASSES! Then you come up with stupid generalizations about F2P.Doctor Glocktor said:
I was hoping that the TF2 community would be better than most other competitive shooter communities. Guess I was wrong. God, people like you are fucking infuriating. You know what, I'm going to come up with my own short list:
- We want you to stop bitching about F2P.
- We want you to allow us to learn and train for classes other than Soldier and Pyro on our own pace.
- We want you to get through your thick skulls that F2P does not equal casual
- We also want you to get through your thick skulls that not every F2P player plays the way you think they do (see quoted post)
- And finally, we want you to have normal expectations of people and give them some time to learn how to play the game, instead of bitching about how they aren't incredibly godlike after having played for half a fucking week.
when your final argument comes down to "i'm better than them" i'm noit sure why i should listen to some so obviously arogant.manythings said:
you say they don't do it for fun? obviously they do it for fun. they just have difrent definition of what's fun than you do. doesn't mean it's not fun for them. you demanding to be the authority on what constitutes fun makes you so argoant that you have no right what so ever to talk about other people belittling others that your entire argument falls apart. yes we have control freak bastards out there and no i would not want to play with them either. that doesn't mean they should not be alowed to have their fun. that doesn't mean "casuals" should get to dictate the pace and be alowed ultimate control of everything. yes i have felt the poison of obnoxious hardcores. it's water compared to that of obnoxious casuals.
yes the target audience is who ever wants to play. not who ever wants to play after the game has been changed to thjeir own little preferences. my analogy for soccor might not have been spot on i agree. what it should have said is the rules should be changed so that soccor is played in a way i'd like. and then those rules should also be enforced on the proplayers.
but anyway i don't care about what you say about it haveing pro leagues and the likes anyway. "it's just a game" anyway
It's like modern art or reality TV, a lot of casual games just feel like cheap cashins or like I could have put it together over a long weekend. This isn't a huge problem as long as they stick to things like phones, hand helds and the Wii(sometimes). but when they invade traditionally hard core gaming territory it becomes an issue as metioned above.
Why is (and it pains me to talk like this) "casual" gaming slammed by the so called "hardcore"? Because it's an easy target. These days, the term casual seems to be simply someone who wants to have fun. They see gaming as a hobby to garner enjoyment out of and that's it. They don't care that they're not the best player out there, so long as they have fun.
The term hardcore on the other hand has taken on a reference that signifies competition. It's always about proving you're the best and the superior feeling you get with it. The problem is that it can't be turned off like a switch. It becomes obsessive to the point where it's not just a superiority in a game or against another player, but it extends to every decision they make. Choosing game A over game B, backing company A over company B to feel superior, net trolling debates, etc. A lot have even taken it outside the gaming sphere into real life decisions. The most extreme, if given an equal choice would have to justify their choice to feel superior.
Now the two come face to face. "Hardcore" rages on "casual" to feel superior and gloats about it. "Casual" doesn't fight back because they don't give a damn which enrages "hardcore" because a victory that the opponent doesn't acknowledge is hollow, so they rage more to get a rise. It doesn't happen and further rage is induced and on and on and on. Meanwhile "casual" gamers and less vindictive "hardcore" gamers see this, shake their heads and walk away, leaving the ragers looking pathetic.
To be honest, if it wasn't so pathetic or so invasive (just look at this thread itself for examples) it would be fun to watch. Personally, if just enjoying a game in of itself makes me a casual, then so be it. I will be enjoying my games while you so called "hardcore" gamers scream at the top of your lungs at just how much better you are while the rest of the world doesn't give a damn.
The term hardcore on the other hand has taken on a reference that signifies competition. It's always about proving you're the best and the superior feeling you get with it. The problem is that it can't be turned off like a switch. It becomes obsessive to the point where it's not just a superiority in a game or against another player, but it extends to every decision they make. Choosing game A over game B, backing company A over company B to feel superior, net trolling debates, etc. A lot have even taken it outside the gaming sphere into real life decisions. The most extreme, if given an equal choice would have to justify their choice to feel superior.
Now the two come face to face. "Hardcore" rages on "casual" to feel superior and gloats about it. "Casual" doesn't fight back because they don't give a damn which enrages "hardcore" because a victory that the opponent doesn't acknowledge is hollow, so they rage more to get a rise. It doesn't happen and further rage is induced and on and on and on. Meanwhile "casual" gamers and less vindictive "hardcore" gamers see this, shake their heads and walk away, leaving the ragers looking pathetic.
To be honest, if it wasn't so pathetic or so invasive (just look at this thread itself for examples) it would be fun to watch. Personally, if just enjoying a game in of itself makes me a casual, then so be it. I will be enjoying my games while you so called "hardcore" gamers scream at the top of your lungs at just how much better you are while the rest of the world doesn't give a damn.
The problem with discussing 'casual' vs 'hardcore' gaming is that neither term has a set definition. Instead they tend to mean 'the group I identify with' and 'the group that annoys me', with the definitions switching depending on who is speaking.
How do you know if you are playing with a casual gamer? If they aren't any good, does that mean they are casual? Or does it just mean they aren't any good? If someone is a free player on TF2, but they've managed 30 zen pacifist tourist ascensions in Nethack, is that person casual or hardcore?
As for the respect issue, I think everyone deserves to not be mocked for liking certain games or not playing all the time. Beyond that, I'm not sure respect really factors into it for me.
How do you know if you are playing with a casual gamer? If they aren't any good, does that mean they are casual? Or does it just mean they aren't any good? If someone is a free player on TF2, but they've managed 30 zen pacifist tourist ascensions in Nethack, is that person casual or hardcore?
As for the respect issue, I think everyone deserves to not be mocked for liking certain games or not playing all the time. Beyond that, I'm not sure respect really factors into it for me.
I got as far as me trying to define fun before I got bored of humouring you. So yeah, when you can only say "you're being mean so everything you say is invalid" you're done.Jazzeki said:
it think its the fact or perception that casual gamers get what they want cause they out number hardcore gamers. so game companies bend over backward to accomadate these people who dont have the 5+ hours a day to play a mmo etc so games become easier and in the case of WOW everyone gets welfare epic just for participation.