Why Metal Gear Rising was Awful.

[Able Seacat]

snip

Combo length is not specificly a relevant aspect of gameplay... it's balanced within the context of the fighting system. Some games have longer combos (Mvc3) some much shorter (ssf4) the only difference is the amount of time the comboed person is waiting in hitstun. In mgr hitstun is non standardized, non effective, and sometimes non existant. All depending on the specific attacks of the specific enemies. Then you have unblockables, all while fighting multiple enemies. This makes for hundreds of thousands of combinations of defensive tactics needed to escape the situations, unlike in dark souls where chaining a couple dashes would generally keep you out of harm. MGR has people doing teleports and sonic speed dashing slashes all fucking with you directional input defense mechanism. Convoluted and not cohesive to learning.

MGR is a hack n' slash game so I would argue the parry system in context to the game is adequate and does not need to be as precise as the games you are comparing it to.

Sure, but that's just settling for worse system, they are not very different, as I've stated. Hitstun blockstun combos...etc all similarly executed concepts. That's my point as too why they are comparable.

But to what universal quantity are you comparing? To use your temperature analogy, if we had two hot cups of tea we could measure which was actually hotter using a thermometer. How do we 'objectively' compare mechanics in games?

Also, driving a car in GTA and Forza is a similar concept yet I feel it would be unfair to criticize GTA for not having the same level of depth as Forza in regards to cars and driving.

There are many aspects of one mechanic that would take a year of studying. But the main one is functionality as discussed befoe. Does it do what it set out to do? We compare to see its temperature (or worth) by comparing it to another cup of tea and how it functions.

The video I posted earlier showed a player defeating bosses without taking a hit and utilizing parries effectively, how is this not evidence that the parrying in the game can function?

If your argument is that it does function but not well, we come back to what measurement or quantity you are comparing this to?

I already talked about some unavoidable flaws in the video. The quantity is the comparison, I posted a great deal on this.

I had a quick look at past posts and I disagree. About the video you mentioned the camera angle (you mentioned it was a problem for you but it wasn't for me), the player being "propelled past his target" and the player "needing to jump or cancel his string otherwise to make it safe". (Neither of these 'break' the game for me or make it un-enjoyable.)

You did not mention the parrying which was what you wanted to be the focus of the thread.

From page 4: "But, I was meaning to get into a more condenced focuses discussion and breakdown of the parrying system. (only one aspect of the game)"

"The quantity is the comparison" What does this mean? What quantity are you referring to?

Also to address your earlier point;

zerkocelot:
as for the cars forza and gta are different genres with similar specific mechanics, they serve different purposes. Forza the driving is the main focus and the mastery of which is the ultimate goal, gta it serves as an ancillary mechanic so the comparison is diffiuclt. MGR and other fighting games involve blocking and dodging to avoid damage. same purpose..

How about comparing Forza Horizon to Test Drive Unlimited? Both open world racing games. If I argue Forza Horizon is better because it is easier to drift, does that mean TDU is the objectively worse game?

Someone could find the drifting easier in TDU than in Forza, as someone could find the parrying in MGR easier than another hack n' slash.

 

[SushiJaguar]

I came here expecting to see somebody who didn't have a good reason for calling such a good game "awful", and that's exactly what I got. Man, I love this website.

 

[Angelblaze]

I came here expecting to see somebody who didn't have a good reason for calling such a good game "awful", and that's exactly what I got. Man, I love this website.

Same here, *dances with Mario*

But seriously, I don't see the issue here.
Can he not block, is the block system just different from what hes used to? His complaints and grammar are all over the fucking place man...

 

[Obscure_Reference]

This is the first thread I've ever read on this entire forum and I have to say it's absolutely spectacular :V

Like, not to sound excessively rude or anything but the sheer amount of exasperation in the posts as the arguments continue on is something to behold. OP's continued response to people attempting to illustrate the issues with his position is equal parts enthralling, baffling, and infuriating.

Also as a piece of advice, OP, if you're so entrenched in validating this opinion of yours that you're going to basically re-package the same set of arguments for ~4 pages worth of forum posts, maybe it's just better at this point to leave the thread be so that you don't have to argue about it anymore. Like, I can tell this whole shebang is probably going to stagnate *fast* and just prolonging an argument to the point where the opposition has gotten frustrated and given up is a pretty hollow victory on your part, IMO. You've demonstrated that you're super-entrenched in your stance, and this is an intrinsically subjective issue anyway so it's not like you're likely to convince anyone to change *their* opinions.

 

[runnerbelow]

I don't think I've ever seen such blatant argumentum ad nauseam in an Escapist thread before.

However, Obscure_Reference posted everything I could ever need to say on this subject. So, I'm just going to add my subjective opinion on some matters.

I hate Street Fighter. I love God Hand and Metal Gear Rising. I think the parry system in play in MGR is perfectly serviceable. In fact, I love that it was actually challenging at times. It is what Ninja Gaiden 3 should have been, IMO.

Just because something works in a way you don't like, OP, doesn't mean it's broken. It means you don't like it. Just because someone dislikes pizza, because it can be sloppy and fall apart while you're eating it, it doesn't mean pizza is objectively bad. In fact, a lot of people love pizza, and would consider it their favourite food, myself included.

 

[hermes]

I really hated the way they implemented the battle system (specifically the block and parry). Once you got the rhythm of it, you could just use it constantly and be pretty much unbeatable. I didn't even have to adjust my play style to the actions of the enemies... the timing was so generous I didn't needed to read my opponent, I just kept winning every fight by inputting parries (if the enemy attacks, Raiden parries automatically; if it doesn't, Raiden attacks), there are no penalties for parrying at the wrong time.

 

[Lunar Templar]

interesting, while I've yet to play it (no console), I have noticed one trend, a lot of the 'it sucks' comes from people whom can't parry/ can't parry well. I've never been able to parry worth shit in 3rd Strike, it doesn't make the game worse, just means I'd have to try harder to master it (assuming I still played fighting games enough to care) and I feel the same apply's here.

 

[Pink Gregory]

I really hated the way they implemented the battle system (specifically the block and parry). Once you got the rhythm of it, you could just use it constantly and be pretty much unbeatable. I didn't even have to adjust my play style to the actions of the enemies... the timing was so generous I didn't needed to read my opponent, I just kept winning every fight by inputting parries (if the enemy attacks, Raiden parries automatically; if it doesn't, Raiden attacks), there are no penalties for parrying at the wrong time.

It could certainly stand to be a little tighter on the higher difficulties; I loved it, but it was nowhere near as challenging as (my still-favourite Platinum game) Bayonetta, which is what I was ending up comparing it to.

Though any fight that involves more than one of those Mastiff things can floor me.

 

[zerkocelot]

This is the first thread I've ever read on this entire forum and I have to say it's absolutely spectacular :V

Like, not to sound excessively rude or anything but the sheer amount of exasperation in the posts as the arguments continue on is something to behold. OP's continued response to people attempting to illustrate the issues with his position is equal parts enthralling, baffling, and infuriating.

Also as a piece of advice, OP, if you're so entrenched in validating this opinion of yours that you're going to basically re-package the same set of arguments for ~4 pages worth of forum posts, maybe it's just better at this point to leave the thread be so that you don't have to argue about it anymore. Like, I can tell this whole shebang is probably going to stagnate *fast* and just prolonging an argument to the point where the opposition has gotten frustrated and given up is a pretty hollow victory on your part, IMO. You've demonstrated that you're super-entrenched in your stance, and this is an intrinsically subjective issue anyway so it's not like you're likely to convince anyone to change *their* opinions.

haha I think I have... why stop its fun?

 

[zerkocelot]

I really hated the way they implemented the battle system (specifically the block and parry). Once you got the rhythm of it, you could just use it constantly and be pretty much unbeatable. I didn't even have to adjust my play style to the actions of the enemies... the timing was so generous I didn't needed to read my opponent, I just kept winning every fight by inputting parries (if the enemy attacks, Raiden parries automatically; if it doesn't, Raiden attacks), there are no penalties for parrying at the wrong time.

yea its an option select basically however I never thought it beneficial just poorly implemented.

 

[zerkocelot]

snip

Combo length is not specificly a relevant aspect of gameplay... it's balanced within the context of the fighting system. Some games have longer combos (Mvc3) some much shorter (ssf4) the only difference is the amount of time the comboed person is waiting in hitstun. In mgr hitstun is non standardized, non effective, and sometimes non existant. All depending on the specific attacks of the specific enemies. Then you have unblockables, all while fighting multiple enemies. This makes for hundreds of thousands of combinations of defensive tactics needed to escape the situations, unlike in dark souls where chaining a couple dashes would generally keep you out of harm. MGR has people doing teleports and sonic speed dashing slashes all fucking with you directional input defense mechanism. Convoluted and not cohesive to learning.

MGR is a hack n' slash game so I would argue the parry system in context to the game is adequate and does not need to be as precise as the games you are comparing it to.

Sure, but that's just settling for worse system, they are not very different, as I've stated. Hitstun blockstun combos...etc all similarly executed concepts. That's my point as too why they are comparable.

But to what universal quantity are you comparing? To use your temperature analogy, if we had two hot cups of tea we could measure which was actually hotter using a thermometer. How do we 'objectively' compare mechanics in games?

Also, driving a car in GTA and Forza is a similar concept yet I feel it would be unfair to criticize GTA for not having the same level of depth as Forza in regards to cars and driving.

There are many aspects of one mechanic that would take a year of studying. But the main one is functionality as discussed befoe. Does it do what it set out to do? We compare to see its temperature (or worth) by comparing it to another cup of tea and how it functions.

The video I posted earlier showed a player defeating bosses without taking a hit and utilizing parries effectively, how is this not evidence that the parrying in the game can function?

If your argument is that it does function but not well, we come back to what measurement or quantity you are comparing this to?

I already talked about some unavoidable flaws in the video. The quantity is the comparison, I posted a great deal on this.

I had a quick look at past posts and I disagree. About the video you mentioned the camera angle (you mentioned it was a problem for you but it wasn't for me), the player being "propelled past his target" and the player "needing to jump or cancel his string otherwise to make it safe". (Neither of these 'break' the game for me or make it un-enjoyable.)

You did not mention the parrying which was what you wanted to be the focus of the thread.

From page 4: "But, I was meaning to get into a more condenced focuses discussion and breakdown of the parrying system. (only one aspect of the game)"

"The quantity is the comparison" What does this mean? What quantity are you referring to?

Also to address your earlier point;

zerkocelot:
as for the cars forza and gta are different genres with similar specific mechanics, they serve different purposes. Forza the driving is the main focus and the mastery of which is the ultimate goal, gta it serves as an ancillary mechanic so the comparison is diffiuclt. MGR and other fighting games involve blocking and dodging to avoid damage. same purpose..

How about comparing Forza Horizon to Test Drive Unlimited? Both open world racing games. If I argue Forza Horizon is better because it is easier to drift, does that mean TDU is the objectively worse game?

Someone could find the drifting easier in TDU than in Forza, as someone could find the parrying in MGR easier than another hack n' slash.

You diagree but it seems for no reason.. the game was really poor designed as the adeot player in the video does not often parry but just relys on block ing everything (sometimes simy to avoid damage and to no greater advantage). it is speculation but I assume he had to restart more than 100 times and was lucky the boss didn't hit him during the moments the camera obscures the action... the way I measure the games worth is by comparison to other games and the functionality of thier similar systems. Drifting might or might not be a main mechanic and regardless of the challenge of pulling it off it would still need to prove a functional and stable mechanic which the parrying is not due to my points and the reality of the button layout.

 

[otakon17]

People complain about the parry. People defend the parry, say that the people who are bitching just suck at it. Well, I'm with the complainers. The parry doesn't work well in this game, and this is coming from someone who's played through several games similar in nature. The Onimusha series, all of them had a perfect parry mechanic, could get that on a regular basis in all of them except for Dawn Of Dreams(Rolento's dodge/guard always screwed me up, he didn't move, just swayed). The same with God of War and Ninja Gaiden. And hell considering I got Ninja Gaiden's block/parry timing down sooner than Rising, what does that say for Rising's design? I also agree that the dodge is near worthless as it's short and you attack at the same time. Why not a dedicated parry and block maneuver? Nearly every other brawler/hack and slash akin to Rising has those functions separately from attacking and jumping.

Anyway, I'm only speaking from my experience with the demo however, from what I've read the full game was better in this regard. Still, looks more fun to watch than to play for me.

"Nanonmachines, son."

 

[zerkocelot]

People complain about the parry. People defend the parry, say that the people who are bitching just suck at it. Well, I'm with the complainers. The parry doesn't work well in this game, and this is coming from someone who's played through several games similar in nature. The Onimusha series, all of them had a perfect parry mechanic, could get that on a regular basis in all of them except for Dawn Of Dreams(Rolento's dodge/guard always screwed me up, he didn't move, just swayed). The same with God of War and Ninja Gaiden. And hell considering I got Ninja Gaiden's block/parry timing down sooner than Rising, what does that say for Rising's design? I also agree that the dodge is near worthless as it's short and you attack at the same time. Why not a dedicated parry and block maneuver? Nearly every other brawler/hack and slash akin to Rising has those functions separately from attacking and jumping.

Anyway, I'm only speaking from my experience with the demo however, from what I've read the full game was better in this regard. Still, looks more fun to watch than to play for me.

"Nanonmachines, son."

Further evidence, a capable player has difficulty due to no fault of his own, as he masters other systems with ease but not mgr...

 

[Able Seacat]

snip

You diagree but it seems for no reason.. the game was really poor designed as the adeot player in the video does not often parry but just relys on block everything. it is speculation but I assume he had to restart more than 100 times and was lucky the boss didn't hit him during the moments the camera obscures the action... the wah I measure the games worth is by comparison to other games and the functionality of thier similar systems. Drifting might or might not be a main mechanic and regardless of the challenge of pulling it off it would still need to prove a functional and stable mechanic which the parrying is not due to my points and the reality of the button layout.

As others have said this has gone on way too long. You keep on going on about the camera (which I have already said a lot of people did not find this a problem so it is not objective) when you said you just wanted to talk about the parrying.

Measuring a game's worth by comparing to other games is not objective as I have already said, people find the parrying in MGR better than in other games and vise versa. The parrying does function as intended and you can think the way it was implemented is bad as an opinion that's fine but it is not objectively bad just because you don't like it or you have found better examples in other games.

Feel free to respond but as mentioned above this has been discussed ad nauseam and I'll just show myself out. And yes I'll watch the door on my way out, tis a nice door.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

compare to sf 3rd strike the parry which always works against every attack is objectivly better..

The parry in Dark Souls doesn't work against every attack... At least MGR tells you if you can parry or not instead of just finding out by trial and error like Dark Souls.

You praised Dark Souls in your OP, are you saying this game doesn't have any faults?

No it just has a more solid fighting system with depth and a learning curve...that camera angle problem happened to often to me especially agaisnt the second last boss with the rocks in the area its just one of the aspects that adds up...

You really need to stop using Dark Souls as an example of a good fighting system because Dark Souls' fighting system sucks, there's no learning curve and there's no depth whatsoever to Dark Souls. You can use the exact same tactic from the very start of the game to the end of the game so where is this learning and where is this depth? Because both are completely nonexistent to me. The whole point of a good hack and slash or fighting game is to make you change up your tactics instead of allowing the player to do the same thing over and over again.

 

[zerkocelot]

compare to sf 3rd strike the parry which always works against every attack is objectivly better..

The parry in Dark Souls doesn't work against every attack... At least MGR tells you if you can parry or not instead of just finding out by trial and error like Dark Souls.

You praised Dark Souls in your OP, are you saying this game doesn't have any faults?

No it just has a more solid fighting system with depth and a learning curve...that camera angle problem happened to often to me especially agaisnt the second last boss with the rocks in the area its just one of the aspects that adds up...

You really need to stop using Dark Souls as an example of a good fighting system because Dark Souls' fighting system sucks, there's no learning curve and there's no depth whatsoever to Dark Souls. You can use the exact same tactic from the very start of the game to the end of the game so where is this learning and where is this depth? Because both are completely nonexistent to me. The whole point of a good hack and slash or fighting game is to make you change up your tactics instead of allowing the player to do the same thing over and over again.

you still have to learn that one tactic you think is present, however there is more... blocking and dodging and parrying are 3 different mechanics meaning you could learn 3 different strategies in dark souls.. these 2 concepts are blended together in mgr and this poorly implemented... The dodging requires timing for every different type of weapon attack and boss attack, you have to rely on reflexes and timing. Good point about the parry, I never invested a full character into it.

 

[zerkocelot]

snip

You diagree but it seems for no reason.. the game was really poor designed as the adeot player in the video does not often parry but just relys on block everything. it is speculation but I assume he had to restart more than 100 times and was lucky the boss didn't hit him during the moments the camera obscures the action... the wah I measure the games worth is by comparison to other games and the functionality of thier similar systems. Drifting might or might not be a main mechanic and regardless of the challenge of pulling it off it would still need to prove a functional and stable mechanic which the parrying is not due to my points and the reality of the button layout.

As others have said this has gone on way too long. You keep on going on about the camera (which I have already said a lot of people did not find this a problem so it is not objective) when you said you just wanted to talk about the parrying.

Measuring a game's worth by comparing to other games is not objective as I have already said, people find the parrying in MGR better than in other games and vise versa. The parrying does function as intended and you can think the way it was implemented is bad as an opinion that's fine but it is not objectively bad just because you don't like it or you have found better examples in other games.

Feel free to respond but as mentioned above this has been discussed ad nauseam and I'll just show myself out. And yes I'll watch the door on my way out, tis a nice door.

All in all I did appreciate your conversation! The only way we know the earth is round is through evidence... I provide some for my stance and you just say "well, I liked it.." meaning I have a stronger case and the right to claim objective truth.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

you still have to learn that one tactic you think is present, however there is more... blocking and dodging and parrying are 3 different mechanics meaning you could learn 3 different strategies in dark souls.. these 2 concepts are blended together in mgr and this poorly implemented... The dodging requires timing for every different type of weapon attack and boss attack, you have to rely on reflexes and timing. Good point about the parry, I never invested a full character into it.

So just normal blocking and normal attacking is a tactic that I had to learn specifically in Dark Souls? It's not like I never played a game with blocking and attacking before so I don't get how Dark Souls taught me anything. If anything, I had to learn to play the game more simple than anything as I made a thief that didn't wear armor and used light shields so I figured I'd have to dodge as my primary way not getting hit and I thought I'd have to rely on the riposte as well so I started playing the game primarily dodging and I kept getting killed, then I found I could just block pretty much every attack (even boss attacks) with my shield so there was no reason to do anything but just block then attack; Dark Souls was a very disappointing game for me, I expected tough-to-master combat system and a hard game, but I didn't get either.

Saying that the parry and block are blended together isn't really a big deal, lots of combat systems give you a parry or counter attack (or some kind of bonus) when you time a block just right. Bayonetta gives you Witch Time when you dodge at just the right time, it's really no different than that as Bayonetta is about dodging where MGR is about blocking/parrying and both rely on good timing on the dodge or the block (both games are actually quite similar in that regard). I can't really comment on MGR's dodging as I haven't played the full game. Just playing the demo of MGR, the combat system had more depth and was more fun than Dark Souls.

 

[zerkocelot]

you still have to learn that one tactic you think is present, however there is more... blocking and dodging and parrying are 3 different mechanics meaning you could learn 3 different strategies in dark souls.. these 2 concepts are blended together in mgr and this poorly implemented... The dodging requires timing for every different type of weapon attack and boss attack, you have to rely on reflexes and timing. Good point about the parry, I never invested a full character into it.

So just normal blocking and normal attacking is a tactic that I had to learn specifically in Dark Souls? It's not like I never played a game with blocking and attacking before so I don't get how Dark Souls taught me anything. If anything, I had to learn to play the game more simple than anything as I made a thief that didn't wear armor and used light shields so I figured I'd have to dodge as my primary way not getting hit and I thought I'd have to rely on the riposte as well so I started playing the game primarily dodging and I kept getting killed, then I found I could just block pretty much every attack (even boss attacks) with my shield so there was no reason to do anything but just block then attack; Dark Souls was a very disappointing game for me, I expected tough-to-master combat system and a hard game, but I didn't get either.

Saying that the parry and block are blended together isn't really a big deal, lots of combat systems give you a parry or counter attack (or some kind of bonus) when you time a block just right. Bayonetta gives you Witch Time when you dodge at just the right time, it's really no different than that as Bayonetta is about dodging where MGR is about blocking/parrying and both rely on good timing on the dodge or the block (both games are actually quite similar in that regard). I can't really comment on MGR's dodging as I haven't played the full game. Just playing the demo of MGR, the combat system had more depth and was more fun than Dark Souls.

I see your points but I said dark souls is a more rewarding experience and now upon reflection not necessarily more deep.

 

[Kungfusam]

Dark souls is a game about exploration and atmosphere, MGR is just killing everything
The parry system was poorly implemented in my opinion and it didn't make up for the lack of depth in the rest of combat system, its to easy to get fudged by the camera and didn't really give that awesome feeling when perfected, still I'm hoping for sequel