Why people give Obsidian a little to much credit (IMO)

[deathbydeath]

I've played a crapton of KOTOR 1 (and never finished it, for some reason), but upon playing KOTOR 2, Obsidian added a shitton of new mechanics and features to KOTOR, making it a really fucking robust game. They added a (proper) crafting system and expanded on the embarrassing non-lightsaber weapon mods from KOTOR 1, they added an influence system, individual party member buffs on the party as a whole, and Kreia is sooo much more interesting than the starting companions from KOTOR 1, and most of the damn party while I'm at it.

 

[Xdeser2]

TL;DRObsidian is meh, the games they make are either built off of old games so it makes it easier for them OR are of extremely meh quality.[/b]

Fallout: New Vegas

KOTOR 2

Aside from some bugs, explain to me how these are "Meh"

Most games are built form pre-existing engines (Look at how much devs use Unreal, including Bioware) Hell Gamebryo was not made by Bethesda! By this logic are Mass Effect 2 and Fallout 3 "Meh" Games because they were built on pre-existing engines?

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

From what I can gather it's good writing and quite good gameplay that they're renowned for, I haven't seen a post/met anyone who thinks that they're the Holy Grail of Game Design.

Personally, I like them a lot due to Fallout New Vegas and KoTOR 2, the former as a result of making a Fallout game that's actually fun & charming, unlike Fallout 1-3 which all felt rather bleak, and the latter because they actually attempted to explore the grey area of the Star Wars mythos, and for once, didn't present the Sith as a bunch of inherently evil emo bastards and the Jedi as righteous protectors of the galaxy, instead it presented both on the same level, ie, neither philosophy is right, and neither faction is better than the other, a stark contrast to KoTOR 1's insufferable preaching of the Jedi as the one's in the right(god those endings were unbearable).

So, in short, (I presume), good writing and decent gameplay can both be blown completely out of proportion, and indeed they have, as a result, that's why Obsidian is regarded in such a manner: the same way that Bioware was seen as the exemplars of game writing, even though their moral choice malarkey was completely biased and was nowhere near the level of The Walking Dead(the game).

But that's the fucking point of Star Wars...

The Jedi are gods angels, the Sith are the devils servants.

THAT'S HOW IT GOES.

Star Wars is set up as Black and White for a reason, because that's the appeal of it.

What is it with today's society and not allowing things to be black and white occasionally in fiction? If I wanted endless grey on grey morality I'd never play video games since real life gives me enough of that.

Some franchises are based on grey v. grey, Star Wars isn't one of them.

That's why I like them so; It's the Killer 7 principle, the game flaunts established norms and establishes a new story of its own by taking elements from the source material and mixing shit up.

The Jedi are still portrayed as vaguely good, (SPOILER ALERT, since I don't know how to use the tag thing) after all, several Jedi Masters are seen helping the communities that they're hiding in, and yet, at some points in the story, they're as bad as the Sith.

Also, personally, nothing in life is (EDIT)Black and White.

 

[Olikar]

But that's the fucking point of Star Wars...

The Jedi are gods angels, the Sith are the devils servants.

THAT'S HOW IT GOES.

Star Wars is set up as Black and White for a reason, because that's the appeal of it.

I don't care what Star wars 'is supposed to be' Chris Avellone shows us what it should be, he wrote the only Star Wars story that is remotely intelligent and thought provoking, in comparison Bioware looks like bad fan fiction. I mean compare their interpretations of Kreia

Avellone builds Kreia as a mysterious character who's motives remain unclear and beyond you even until the end. She challenges any deeply held beliefs your character has, but not to to change his view to hers (like the Jedi would) simply to make him think about his view and what it actually means in the world. Because she challenges world views and beliefs many see her as evil or supporting the Sith but in reality their outbursts against her simply show how they have fallen to the arrogance the claim to despise.


Biowares says that Kreia was an evil lady turned crazy by Sith holocrons.


It's funny how this seems to mimic the story of Kotor 2, with Bioware as the jedi who are too stupid to understand what Kreia means or meant.

 

[endtherapture]

But that's the fucking point of Star Wars...

The Jedi are gods angels, the Sith are the devils servants.

THAT'S HOW IT GOES.

Star Wars is set up as Black and White for a reason, because that's the appeal of it.

I don't care what Star wars 'is supposed to be' Chris Avellone shows us what it should be, he wrote the only Star Wars story that is remotely intelligent and thought provoking, in comparison Bioware looks like bad fan fiction. I mean compare their interpretations of Kreia

Avellone builds Kreia as a mysterious character who's motives remain unclear and beyond you even until the end. She challenges any deeply held beliefs your character has, but not to to change his view to hers (like the Jedi would) simply to make him think about his view and what it actually means in the world. Because she challenges world views and beliefs many see her as evil or supporting the Sith but in reality their outbursts against her simply show how they have fallen to the arrogance the claim to despise.


Biowares says that Kreia was an evil lady turned crazy by Sith holocrons.


It's funny how this seems to mimic the story of Kotor 2, with Bioware as the jedi who are too stupid to understand what Kreia means or meant.

I concur. The story was exceptional, and made Star Wars much more interesting. Having every single Star Wars as black vs white is incredibly boring and I loved the descontruction of the mythos. But sadly Bioware and Lucasarts just seemed too stupid to understand it.

Also the gameplay was far better, with all the new abilities and the prestige classes and mutiple misisons going on at once like Dxun/Onderon.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

Obsidian do not make their own gameplay, they just write stories. Admittedly, their stories are good for the video game market.

Your joking right? name one existing game company that makes RPGs that has better gameplay than Obisidan, hell name one that has even equal gameplay to Obsidian games.

Bioware. Bethesda. Square Enix. Do I need to go on?

On-topic, I don't know why it is that Obsidian gets a pass with every game they make. Don't get me wrong, I love Alpha Protocol despite its bugginess. Note that I said despite. It is buggy. And to blame it on Sega after Sega delayed the game by 7 months, saying that Sega was rushing development time? Really? I agree that Obsidian got a bum deal with KOTOR 2. But to say that they are one of the best companies ever that just happens to get held back by every publisher they've ever had seems a bit disingenuous.

 

[Olikar]

Obsidian do not make their own gameplay, they just write stories. Admittedly, their stories are good for the video game market.

Your joking right? name one existing game company that makes RPGs that has better gameplay than Obisidan, hell name one that has even equal gameplay to Obsidian games.

Bioware. Bethesda. Square Enix. Do I need to go on?

You're joking right? please tell me you're joking. Bioware and Bethesda games have terrible gameplay in comparison to Obsidian, and I can't thnk of a single good Rpg Square Enix has ever made. I mean compare the gameplay from Kotor 1 to Kotor 2, Kotor allows almost no role play elements beyond really obvious 'morality' choices where as Kotor 2 implements several features that actually make your character-build choices matter, such as crafting and the ability to use your skills for certain dialogue options.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

Obsidian do not make their own gameplay, they just write stories. Admittedly, their stories are good for the video game market.

Your joking right? name one existing game company that makes RPGs that has better gameplay than Obisidan, hell name one that has even equal gameplay to Obsidian games.

Bioware. Bethesda. Square Enix. Do I need to go on?

You're joking right? please tell me you're joking. Bioware and Bethesda games have terrible gameplay in comparison to Obsidian, and I can't thnk of a single good Rpg Square Enix has ever made. I mean compare the gameplay from Kotor 1 to Kotor 2, Kotor allows almost no role play elements beyond really obvious 'morality' choices where as Kotor 2 implements several features that actually make your character-build choices matter, such as crafting and the ability to use your skills for certain dialogue options.

You never played Deus Ex: Human Revolution? It's quite good, gameplay-wise. I don't like the rest of the game, but the gameplay is a hell of a lot more innovative than anything Obsidian's done.

Also, you seem to be missing the point with Bioware. It's easy to say "look at the improvements they made in KOTOR 2!" Well, I'd hope to see some improvements in a video game sequel, when they have everything else to work with.

As for RPG elements, tell me how the RPG elements in KOTOR 2 exceed that of Skyrim.

 

[Olikar]

Obsidian do not make their own gameplay, they just write stories. Admittedly, their stories are good for the video game market.

Your joking right? name one existing game company that makes RPGs that has better gameplay than Obisidan, hell name one that has even equal gameplay to Obsidian games.

Bioware. Bethesda. Square Enix. Do I need to go on?

You're joking right? please tell me you're joking. Bioware and Bethesda games have terrible gameplay in comparison to Obsidian, and I can't thnk of a single good Rpg Square Enix has ever made. I mean compare the gameplay from Kotor 1 to Kotor 2, Kotor allows almost no role play elements beyond really obvious 'morality' choices where as Kotor 2 implements several features that actually make your character-build choices matter, such as crafting and the ability to use your skills for certain dialogue options.

You never played Deus Ex: Human Revolution? It's quite good, gameplay-wise. I don't like the rest of the game, but the gameplay is a hell of a lot more innovative than anything Obsidian's done.

Oh yeah I forget about Eidos, they're probably the only company left that has ever matched up to Obsidian in terms of Rpgs (they've gone down hill though, HR is pretty poor in comparison to the original)

As for RPG elements, tell me how the RPG elements in KOTOR 2 exceed that of Skyrim.

Well it's a bit hard to compare their RPG features considering Skyrim doesn't have any, but I'll try. The game actually gives you choices in the outcomes of the game, individual characters and individual locations. The character building allows for more varied builds, as opposed to Skyrim which lacks fundamental features I.e attributes like Strength, Intelligence etc. The game gives you multiple ways to approach a situation like hacking and stealth as opposed to hurr slash them up (or burn them with magic) and before you say it I know Skyrim has stealth but it's terrible, frequently it is actually physically impossible to sneak past enemies (and I am not just talking about bosses)


Edit:

Also, you seem to be missing the point with Bioware. It's easy to say "look at the improvements they made in KOTOR 2!" Well, I'd hope to see some improvements in a video game sequel, when they have everything else to work with.

So you must have been really disappointed with Bethesda then since Fallout 3 was much worse than Fallout 2 (which should be noted is basically an Obdisian game in all but name) in terms of gameplay.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

Obsidian do not make their own gameplay, they just write stories. Admittedly, their stories are good for the video game market.

Your joking right? name one existing game company that makes RPGs that has better gameplay than Obisidan, hell name one that has even equal gameplay to Obsidian games.

Bioware. Bethesda. Square Enix. Do I need to go on?

You're joking right? please tell me you're joking. Bioware and Bethesda games have terrible gameplay in comparison to Obsidian, and I can't thnk of a single good Rpg Square Enix has ever made. I mean compare the gameplay from Kotor 1 to Kotor 2, Kotor allows almost no role play elements beyond really obvious 'morality' choices where as Kotor 2 implements several features that actually make your character-build choices matter, such as crafting and the ability to use your skills for certain dialogue options.

You never played Deus Ex: Human Revolution? It's quite good, gameplay-wise. I don't like the rest of the game, but the gameplay is a hell of a lot more innovative than anything Obsidian's done.

Oh yeah I forget about Eidos, they're probably the only company left that has ever matched up to Obsidian in terms of Rpgs (they've gone down hill though, HR is pretty poor in comparison to the original)

Fair enough. Like I said, I didn't like much of HR outside of the gameplay, and I can't debate opinions.

As for RPG elements, tell me how the RPG elements in KOTOR 2 exceed that of Skyrim.

Well it's a bit hard to compare their RPG features considering Skyrim doesn't have any, but I'll try. The game actually gives you choices in the outcomes of the game, individual characters and individual locations. The character building allows for more varied builds, as opposed to Skyrim which lacks fundamental features I.e attributes like Strength, Intelligence etc. The game gives you multiple ways to approach a situation like hacking and stealth as opposed to hurr slash them up (or burn them with magic) and before you say it I know Skyrim has stealth but it's terrible, frequently it is actually physically impossible to sneak past enemies (and I am not just talking about bosses)

Skyrim allows you to specialize in all manners of weapons. An archer will play differently from a mage, which will play different than a sword-and-shield specialist, which is different still from a two-handed weapon specialist. And stealth is terrible? Tell that to my level 36 rogue archer who can sneak around just about any enemy, then snipe them with a bow for over 100 damage, before any stealth bonuses are added on.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. But saying Obsidian is the only company that knows how to make a good RPG now is a bit disingenuous.

 

[jollybarracuda]

I'll give you that they more often than not have a good foundation to build their games on, but in the end, a good game is a good game, and I don't think all the work they put into their games should be underestimated.

However, when we look at what their games do that most other games don't, is offer a real sense of choice in the actions you take and how you align yourself in their game worlds. New Vegas, for example, had like 4 different ways you could complete the game. NCR, Legion, House, Yes Man, and maybe more, though i don't think so. Then we look at Alpha Protocol, which, while not really a technically excellent game, it's story and characters reacted to the way you played in a way that makes Mass Effect look like child's play.

So overall, they're generally adored not just for their classic games that people have fond memories of, but because of the choice they give you in their games that isn't really dependent on what engine they were allowed to use as a starting point; because in the end the kinds of intricate stories they tell really all comes down to the hard work and thought they put into their stories.

 

[Olikar]

Skyrim allows you to specialize in all manners of weapons. An archer will play differently from a mage, which will play different than a sword-and-shield specialist, which is different still from a two-handed weapon specialist. And stealth is terrible? Tell that to my level 36 rogue archer who can sneak around just about any enemy, then snipe them with a bow for over 100 damage, before any stealth bonuses are added on.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. But saying Obsidian is the only company that knows how to make a good RPG now is a bit disingenuous.

But at the end of the day Skyrim makes you face ALL combat situations with combat, thats not fun and is bad for an Rpg.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Well it's a bit hard to compare their RPG features considering Skyrim doesn't have any, but I'll try. The game actually gives you choices in the outcomes of the game, individual characters and individual locations. The character building allows for more varied builds, as opposed to Skyrim which lacks fundamental features I.e attributes like Strength, Intelligence etc. The game gives you multiple ways to approach a situation like hacking and stealth as opposed to hurr slash them up (or burn them with magic) and before you say it I know Skyrim has stealth but it's terrible, frequently it is actually physically impossible to sneak past enemies (and I am not just talking about bosses)

-Many of Skyrim's quests have different outcomes depending on what you do, or who you side with, and often result in getting to choose who lives or dies.
--The Black Star, A Daedra's Best Friend, Ill met by Moonlight, Pieces of the Past, The Taste of Death, Walking Nightmare, No One Escapes Cidhna Mine, Promises to Keep, In My Time Of Need, and Delayed Burial, to name a few.

-The removal of attributes actually increased the number of build Skyrim could allow for. In past games as you leveled up your skills, and thus leveled up in general, you were forced to raise your attributes, the attributes tied to skills that you raised got bonuses of 1/3/5 depending on how many skills you raised during that level up. Unfortunately since all of a classes ksill were tied to 3 of the 8 attributes, this caused you to get massive bonuses to, and thus max out, your main attributes long before you finished leveling, thus forcing you to have to raise attributes not tied to your skills as you leveled up, ultimatly resulting in all characters, no matter if you started off as a thief/warrior/mage, to end up nearly exactly the same. The leveling system of past ES games was a pyramid. The most diverse your character ever was, was level 1, and the higher level your character got, the more similar they became.

The removal of attributes in Skyrim, and the shifting of everything into perks, not only increased the number of different builds one could make, but it also vastly increased long-term character diversity. More so then any past ES game, and past most games with attribute systems. Effectively, it flipped the pyramid upside down.

-Sneaking up on enemies is only impossible if you
1. Have a low skill/no perks
2. Stack 3 or 4 +sneak bonus items on your character which causes all sneak attempts to fail. Several skills suffer from calculation bugs caused by getting your skill so high that the game cant calculate it and it gets reset to zero.

 

[Olikar]

-snip

But characters in Skyrim can still do everything all at once, plus if Bethesda where even a half decent Dev they wouldn't have such a Problem getting attributes to work in ES in the first place. I mean every other RPG Dev seems to manage, and the fact they fail on such basic stuff is really telling of the over all quality of their games.

-Sneaking up on enemies is only impossible if you
1. Have a low skill/no perks
2. Stack 3 or 4 +sneak bonus items on your character which causes all sneak attempts to fail. Several skills suffer from calculation bugs caused by getting your skill so high that the game cant calculate it and it gets reset to zero.

No there are parts where it is literally impossible to sneak past an enemy, I remember one dungeon where a high level Draguar was right in front of a door that I had to get through, there was no way I could sneak past.

 

[Vault101]

I think bethesda gets too much credit....people give them a free pass for poor story telling/imersion because of how big and vast their worlds are

I enjoyed New Vgeas waay more than FO3 as buggy as it is its just better

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

Characters in ES can do everything because the game is deigned that way on purpose, it's a game MADE to allow people to become as godly as they want. But even still, the way Skyrim's skill system is set up, i.e. that 99% of the actually skill power comes from perks, not the skill level itself, it's impossible to become a master at everything, as there are only 80 perks points available, but 250+ perks to get, and even then, it's impossible to reach past level 50ish unless you power game all your non-class related skills to max. you can do everything, but you cant master everything, or even be remotely good in everything.

Actually, every single attribute based game, from Fallout 1-2, all the way to BG and the like, suffer from the exact same problem. Attribute systems throw more numbers in your face, but if you actually take a look at the underlying formulas being used to calculate your character's stats, you will find that unless you do some major attribute gouging,raising or lowing your attributes by a couple points has little, to zero, real effect on your character. It has nothing to do with Bethesda being unable to do something, it has to do with a fundamental flaw in attribute systems themselves. Attribute systems only seem more complex because of all the numbers, but the underlying formulas impose conformity.
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I have never bee in a dungeon where a enemy stood in a doorway, and never moved. I have always been able to sit there for a minute or two, and he moves out of the way. There are literally ZERO NPCs in Skyrim placed in doorways that dont move.

 

[Olikar]

Characters in ES can do everything because the game is deigned that way on purpose,

But that's not the point of RPGs, RPGs are supposed to have variety in different character builds.

Actually, every single attribute based game, from Fallout 1-2, all the way to BG and the like, suffer from the exact same problem. Attribute systems throw more numbers in your face, but if you actually take a look at the underlying formulas being used to calculate your character's stats, you will find that unless you do some major attribute gouging,raising or lowing your attributes by a couple points has little, to zero, effect on your character. It has nothing to do with Bethesda being unable to do something, it has to do with a fundimental flaw in attibtue systems themselves.

Anyone who's played Fallout 1 and 2 know's that's complete BS, your special choices are easily the most important decisions regarding your character, they decide your health, your carry weight, your armour, your AP, what weapons you can wield, how many skill points you get, what dialogue options you get etc

 

[SajuukKhar]

But that's not the point of RPGs, RPGs are supposed to have variety in different character builds.

Considering that, as I said but you so oddly edited out, you CANNOT become good at everything in Skyrim due to the limited number of perk points, there are countless possible build combinations not possible in one playthrough.

A person who goes full warrior will be nowhere near as effective as a thief or mage as someone who goes full thief or mage, or if you half-and half between mage and warrior you wont be as good as either the pure mage, or pure warrior, but you will have access to mage powers the warrior doesn't have, and warrior powers the mage doesn't have.

Anyone who's played Fallout 1 and 2 know's that's complete BS, your special choices are easily the most important decisions regarding your character, they decide your health, your carry weight, your armour, your AP, what weapons you can wield, how many skill points you get, what dialogue options you get etc

Yes, and unless you do something drastic, like rising your STR to 10, or dropping your Christmas to 1, a difference of one or two points between SPECIAL attributes changes very little in your over all character.

A STR of 6, and a STR of 7-8 aren't that much different, a INT of 8 isn't that different then a INT of 9-10, a AGI of 4 isn't that much different then a AGI of 5-6.