WHY RHIANNA WHY!?!?!?

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I did play and greatly enjoy the overlord games, and this could explain partially my enjoyment for the new tomb raider...

also, could possibly explain why I liked the new bioshock but thought the previous two games were a bore to play ^_^

After reading her post, it does seem like alot of stuff does happen behind the scenes that we aren't always aware of, especially in creative control of the plots development.

 

[[REDACTED]]

Snip

Awesome of you to drop by! It's really cool to see the perspective of someone inside the industry on these forums. Do you have any advice for people considering games writing as career?

 

[thehorror2]

Writing credits can be misleading. A lot of times, the guy (or girl) listed as "head writer" only wrote up the basic plot outline and edited what all of the other writers came up with (oh yeah, depending on the size of the game individual levels/characters/conversations will generally be divvied up between the junior writers on the team; Obsidian's writing quality is REALLY uneven because they give different characters to different writers, so while Chris Avellone might be one of the best writers in VG history, Joe Blow the NPC writer isn't going to be turning in memorable work). That might explain the vast gulfs in quality re: stories "written" by Ms. Pratchett.

 

[Ryan Hughes]

It's getting a little better. People actually know games writers exist now and they're starting to use them more frequently. Although it's by no means industry standard. However, *how* they use them is still an ongoing battle of square pegs, round holes, miscommunication, mismanagement and occasional bouts of heartbreak. It really is a painful adolescence but hopefully we'll emerge on the other side as fully functioning grownups. Probably.

Yeah, I imagine it would be tough to write characters under the circumstances you described. Plot in-and-of itself is not so bad, but creating a character can be a very intimate process. Honestly, if I wrote for games, I would probably just get fired for putting my foot down and saying to the development team: "Look, I am the writer here and what I say about the character is final."

I will have to respectfully disagree with your quoted paragraph, though. In a sense, it is not a maturation of the industry so much as a severe issue with certain developers. For example, Konami -throughout the PSone era- usually had the writer as the lead developer of their projects, and it worked quite well for them, bringing Metal Gear Solid, Suikoden, and Silent Hill. Particularly Suikoden and Silent Hill, the two best-written series ever made. The process you are describing seems to be common, but one that is simply borne not out of the infancy of the industry, but out of particular practices of particular developers and publishers. Really, there is no guarantee that the industry will ever grow out of this practice unless specific changes are made.

 

[Robrecht751]

Some studios write games like films (one main writer who does everything) and some do a TV style (TellTale being a good example of using a round table workshop format). Problems arise in story when you have too many people who think "they" know what is best for the story. Thief had problems with design on many levels, and this sort of mismanagement is unfortunately quite common in the industry. A good script can make a terrible movie, all based on execution and how it is handled.

I'm not saying giving writers total creative freedom is always the best thing, but for many of the major studios there is a ton of oversight on story and creative development. With a strong, single guiding hand, this can be fantastic. It also usually takes many iterations before release. Even a game praised for its story like Bioshock went through years of development and tuning before the story turned into what was released.

There's also a major gulf between indie games and AAA. I was a writer on Consortium, and we had none of this oversight. We also didn't have a budget of millions of dollars, and when people put their money in, they want a say in how a game develops. Exactly the same as in the film and television industry, it's just something that is part of how entertainment is made. thehorror2 is correct though on his statement, even though I was a writer on the game, I wrote no dialogue. My work was entirely in the Information Console, ARG writing and various other bits and pieces. There are a few different levels of how writers work on games.

Redacted, if you're interested in game writing, I wrote a piece for the Vancouver Sun a while back on it. I'm by NO means a AAA writer, but i've had a lot of sit downs with game writers, so maybe it can offer some advice. Rhi could give a lot more info I'm sure on that front.

Basically though, to get into game writing you need to just get out there and do it.

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2013/07/30/how-to-break-into-the-game-industry-part-3-on-writing-for-games-and-the-impossible-ish-dream/

 

[Artea]

Is it supposed to be a good thing that she wrote for Bioshock Infinite and Tomb Raider? Because I found the stories in both games to be awful: pretentious drivel and trying-too-hard grittiness respectively.

 

[BrotherRool]

Oh wow I'm just going to geek out for a bit that we've had Rhianna Pratchett post in the thread. That is so cool =D

Plus I quite liked Snuff which is a recent book of his.Not as good as Thud or Guards! Guards but still a damned fine Sam Vimes tale.

And in fairness, it's really hard to write a better book than Thud! or Guards!Guards! =D Many a writer has gone through their entire lives without being able to do it.

I really dug Raising Steam, there's such a visible sense of change in that book. It's always been great how the Discworld has change and grown older along with the books and Raising Steam is where the comes together, all the pieces have been sown, the society is right, the technology is right and suddenly everything's different and they're heading towards the future at a speed unlike anything they've seen before.

Racism and sexism and just generally excluding people who are different or want to be different is one of the oldest themes of the series and the Discworld has been struggling with battle for people's rights and respect for pretty much forever. And Raising Steam is the book where they win, the important people are all on board and society has reached the point where it can say 'You're not okay with this person? Then push off'. It's the last chance for people to adapt or they get left behind. The grags are no longer the powerhouse of Thud! setting society, they're the ones who need to fix themselves because no-one has time for them anymore. The anti-climax highlighting that is absolutely beautiful.

And all those themes, they fit so perfectly with both the huge optimism and upheaval of the Industrial Revolution and the idea of trains themselves. It's not a coincidence that all my descriptions have been things like 'moving forward' and 'being left behind' , TP is just so good at instilling the essence of an idea.

 

[josemlopes]

Video games, its how it goes. Not really a big fan myself of her work (dont see anything all that special to be honest) but in games it usually depends on how much the devs/publishers want the story to matter or just use it as a vessel for specific gameplay mechanics or set-pieces. The best story (story-telling at least) in games are the ones that mix gameplay and story well into eachother like Spec Ops The Line, Psychonauts and Metal Gear (this one just story-telling, and certainly not all the time).

Its stuff that usually comes from a very focused team with a very good and defined direction and goal. Clearly Thief wasnt that.

 

[Leather_Raven]

]

Snip

Awesome of you to drop by! It's really cool to see the perspective of someone inside the industry on these forums. Do you have any advice for people considering games writing as career?

I think Rich Dansky's post on the Ubisoft blog is a great summary.

http://blog.ubi.com/the-write-stuff-on-becoming-a-game-writer/

And since there has been some confusion in the comments relating to this post over at Kotaku http://kotaku.com/the-perils-of-writing-video-games-1535739986 I thought I'd clarify that I wasn't trying to say that writers somehow get this great ocean of freedom in other entertainment mediums. Many scripts are not written on spec, they're brought to the writer by the director, producer, studio etc. for a variety of different reasons. Of the four screenplays I've worked on so far, the first the story initially came from the director and I fleshed it out, the second was an adaptation of a novel (Warrior Daughter), the third was a page-one rewrite (still a huge amount of creative freedom on that) and the fourth is also an adaptation (Wee Free Men.)

However, the point I was trying to make is that freelance games writers don't originate the stories from the off. In-house writers partially do, but it's likely to be hand in hand with the design (as it should always be, regardless of whether your writer is internal or external.)

The main reason I brought that up was because I get so many queries that basically say 'I have this idea for a game. How do I get it made?' And really the answers are 'Get a job at a studio and work your way up and then maybe, just maybe' or 'Learn how to make games with Unity/Gamemaker etc. and do it yourself or with mates.'

Having worked across several different mediums (basically everything other than novels, I'm sure you can guess why) I can wholeheartedly say that games writing is the most restrictive. Not that it doesn't mean that you can't be creative within those boundaries. In fact sometimes boundaries can make you more creative. But more often than not it depends on the team your working with and the agency and control you're given.

Unfortunately, he's so far along in his Alzheimer's he's pretty much out of the game. His latest books have been... off. To my mind, his mind has already died; it's just his body that's still walking around. T_T

That's just bollocks.

in fact Sir. Pratchett recently signed a new deal for another ten books in upcoming years.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but I'm pretty damn sure that's not true either.

Rhi

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

I doubt Rhianna Pratchett was lead writer for all those games OP. Perhaps some but defiantly not Bioshock: Infinite, chances are some would have been for a character or small arc, not the main plot.

-snip-

You were a writer on Consortium? I backed that game's Kickstarter. You mentioned doing the Information Console, just how many writers were there during the development?

Between you and [user]Leather Raven[/user] I have to wonder just how many anonymous devs lurk here instead of Neogaff, of as I like to call it 'Rumor City.'

 

[Veldt Falsetto]

I read these forums, I sometimes even post. You've all been fairly polite, if curious, about the topic of... well, me. I appreciate that, so I thought I'd respond to a few things said in this thread about my career and the choices I've made. Please excuse any typos, this seems to have turned into a typing at 3am scenario.

Okay, here we go...

As some of you are aware (and it's great to read that the weird and occasionally messy world of a games writer is gaining a bit more understanding) I don't originate these stories. It's not a case of me rocking up to a developer and going 'Hey I have this GREAT idea!' It's more a case of a developer coming to me and saying 'Hey! We have this great idea/game design/set of levels/characters etc. But we need some story please.' This makes it quite a different ballgame from most other entertainment mediums.

My role is to take what they have, flesh it out and get it working in the game within the boundaries set by the developer - be they time, budget, design etc. What you get to work with can vary depending on how far development has already progressed. There's likely to be some spine of a story, some levels designed (in Mirror's Edge's case a whole game) and often a bit of character work. By and large it's at least what the developer will have needed for their pitch doc/proof of concept/green light etc. and enough to get folks actually building stuff.

The reason I (and other games writers) talk about the need to get writers/narrative designers in earlier is it would make our role a whole lot easier and more satisfying if *we* helped originate this kind of stuff. When you work as a hired-gun, rather than an imbedded writer, that hardly ever happens. Sometimes this is because the devs want to do it themselves, or they don't know where to find a games writer. Perhaps they're just not ready yet, or not used to thinking about story and writer at the same time. Often there can be an assumption that the 'word bits' are easy, cheap and that can easily be slipped in somewhere down the line. These attitudes unfortunately bypasses the skills that writers/narrative designers have for character and world building. Something that, you'd think, could be pretty useful to the development process.

It's getting a little better. People actually know games writers exist now and they're starting to use them more frequently. Although it's by no means industry standard. However, *how* they use them is still an ongoing battle of square pegs, round holes, miscommunication, mismanagement and occasional bouts of heartbreak. It really is a painful adolescence but hopefully we'll emerge on the other side as fully functioning grownups. Probably.

As for the titles I've worked on - Some have been in a lead writer capacity, such as Tomb Raider or the Overlord games, although I was the only writer on the latter. I didn't just write the ladies, BTW, I wrote the men too. Because it would be, frankly, a little weird not to. Yup, you get the ladies AND the men with me. I'm a full service provider.

Anyway...others jobs have been about supporting another writer (Prince of Persia.) A few have been the efforts of writing teams, such as Thief, Risen and Bioshock Infinite.

I took on these, as someone pointed out very varied titles, for an equally varied number of reasons - I fell in love with what the developer was trying to achieve, I was a fan of the franchise, I was helping a mate out, because I was asked and had the time, I was recommended by a former colleague, and, in one instance, because of a shared history involving a gay, escapologist tortoise. No job ever came about the same way.

Admittedly, not all have turned out the way I'd have liked. This has been for a variety of reasons, not least of which has probably been a little naivety on my part about the realities of what could be achieved within the aforementioned boundaries. We're all learning here.

Some I'm really proud to have been part of. Tomb Raider, for example (particularly Lara's journey which was my main focus) and the Overlord games, which were as fun to make as they are to play. Sometimes things go your way, sometimes they don't.

Creatively, on a broader scale, I still feel like I've only just got started; that I have many more stories to tell and become part of, both in games, and other mediums (a lot of my work is in comics and screenplays these days.)

As for most prominent female developer, I don't think I am. I've just been at this gig for a long time (16 years including my time on PC Zone) and I've worked on some high profile games. I try to use that position, where possible, to stand up for issues I care about within the industry that I love. I have a burning need to at least try to make things better.

This post isn't to justify anything in particular. If you don't like the games I've worked on, then no post of mine is going to make you change your mind. However, there's a lot of misinformation out there about what games writers in general do, so I thought I should sprinkle a little clarity into the mix. Hope it's of interest to those who care about such things.

Thanks for reading.

Rhi

Wow, thanks for getting in on this thread! I suppose I shouldn't call you out in the topic and not expect you to catch wind of it on the internet. If there was any doubt in your mind this was in no way criticism on you and your work, I know that people can often hear things regularly and statements build up as attacks. I really enjoy a lot of your work and Thief was the first time I saw your name in the credits and got confused - which is probably what spurred this thread.

I agree whole-heartedly as I am a big fan of narrative and story in gaming, I guess that's why I'm interested in South Park: The Stick of Truth because the writers obviously have a big role in the making of that game. As far as being a prominent female developer (maybe writer is more fair) I say this because despite how much interest is being put into games writing recently you are the only freelance writer I can personally name, the rest being directors/designers who have a hand in writing or control over the whole story and belong to big companies - like Hideo Kojima or Ken Levine and as a big fan of Japanese games I can name a few more from that side of the world.

Just a question...because I am curious, but what do you think about the story and narrative writing differences between Japan and the west? I'm not sure how much you get to play games or what games you enjoy more but there's a very obvious difference in the writing of say Final Fantasy and Mass Effect or Metal Gear Solid and Thief for example, do you think some Japanese games do try and involve the story from a starting level or are they completely the opposite?

Thanks for replying and posting on here anyway, was great to read a real insight into the world of writing


Adam

 

[Veldt Falsetto]

Some studios write games like films (one main writer who does everything) and some do a TV style (TellTale being a good example of using a round table workshop format). Problems arise in story when you have too many people who think "they" know what is best for the story. Thief had problems with design on many levels, and this sort of mismanagement is unfortunately quite common in the industry. A good script can make a terrible movie, all based on execution and how it is handled.

I'm not saying giving writers total creative freedom is always the best thing, but for many of the major studios there is a ton of oversight on story and creative development. With a strong, single guiding hand, this can be fantastic. It also usually takes many iterations before release. Even a game praised for its story like Bioshock went through years of development and tuning before the story turned into what was released.

There's also a major gulf between indie games and AAA. I was a writer on Consortium, and we had none of this oversight. We also didn't have a budget of millions of dollars, and when people put their money in, they want a say in how a game develops. Exactly the same as in the film and television industry, it's just something that is part of how entertainment is made. thehorror2 is correct though on his statement, even though I was a writer on the game, I wrote no dialogue. My work was entirely in the Information Console, ARG writing and various other bits and pieces. There are a few different levels of how writers work on games.

Redacted, if you're interested in game writing, I wrote a piece for the Vancouver Sun a while back on it. I'm by NO means a AAA writer, but i've had a lot of sit downs with game writers, so maybe it can offer some advice. Rhi could give a lot more info I'm sure on that front.

Basically though, to get into game writing you need to just get out there and do it.

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2013/07/30/how-to-break-into-the-game-industry-part-3-on-writing-for-games-and-the-impossible-ish-dream/

I'm going to also thank you for getting involved, boy what an interesting topic this turned out to be! I'd never thought my throw away post could be so interesting HA!

 

[ScaredScorpion]

I think a large part of the story from thief (2014) was cut or just plain forgotten, otherwise I can't explain how the story seems to assume we know what's going on despite never explaining key components.

I think Rhianna can be a good writer, I absolutely loved the world mirrors edge made but generally I only really notice if a story is genuinely bad

 

[CriticalMiss]

Unfortunately, he's so far along in his Alzheimer's he's pretty much out of the game. His latest books have been... off. To my mind, his mind has already died; it's just his body that's still walking around. T_T

Don't get me wrong. I respect the man greatly, and love his work dearly. But he's gone now.

Untrue actually, he's not doing that bad these days. Link Almost all his problems thus far have mercifully been physical as opposed to mental, in fact Sir. Pratchett recently signed a new deal for another ten books in upcoming years.

Plus I quite liked Snuff which is a recent book of his. Not as good as Thud or Guards! Guards! maybe, but still a damned fine Sam Vimes tale.

Have you read Raising Steam yet? It's great. And has trains. He's still doing damn well in the writing department as far as I'm concerned.

Snip

Any chance you would write the story for a Discworld game given the opportunity?

 

[blackdwarf]

I am surprised looking at the list, because it both contains story I loved, Overlord, and hate, Mirror's edge. But overall, I would consider myself not a fan. Much of her I find pretty generic and enjoyable.

 

[Leather_Raven]

Just a question...because I am curious, but what do you think about the story and narrative writing differences between Japan and the west? I'm not sure how much you get to play games or what games you enjoy more but there's a very obvious difference in the writing of say Final Fantasy and Mass Effect or Metal Gear Solid and Thief for example, do you think some Japanese games do try and involve the story from a starting level or are they completely the opposite?

I've not had much experience with Japanese developed games to be honest. I loved Animal Crossing, Phantasy Star Online, some Kingdom Hearts stuff and had fun with a few of the early Metal Gear games. They certainly seem to take their story pretty seriously and I think it's interesting how (although it's not my personal cup of tea) Otome games are so popular over there in a way they're not here.

 

[Veldt Falsetto]

Just a question...because I am curious, but what do you think about the story and narrative writing differences between Japan and the west? I'm not sure how much you get to play games or what games you enjoy more but there's a very obvious difference in the writing of say Final Fantasy and Mass Effect or Metal Gear Solid and Thief for example, do you think some Japanese games do try and involve the story from a starting level or are they completely the opposite?

I've not had much experience with Japanese developed games to be honest. I loved Animal Crossing, Phantasy Star Online, some Kingdom Hearts stuff and had fun with a few of the early Metal Gear games. They certainly seem to take their story pretty seriously and I think it's interesting how (although it's not my personal cup of tea) Otome games are so popular over there in a way they're not here.

You seem to be a big supporter of female characters in gaming, I'd really like to hear your opinion of main characters like Lightning, if you have any that is.

I think the whole visual novel and otome format are really interesting, though agreed not exactly for me. I really love the Ace Attorney franchise which for me fuses that style of visual novel with point and click adventure in a way that really doesn't seem to happen in the west anymore, at least not outside of Telltale.

Thanks again for the replies, it's really great having the chance to chat with someone with so much experience

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Video game writers are usually having to work around a whole bunch of budget and technical constraints. Do you want a big war with a thousand soldiers on each side, but the engine can't handle it? Ok, so can you afford to make a cutscene showing all that?

Not to mention that writers for games are often brought in after a whole bunch of art assets and enginey bits are already done, so you have to piece a coherent story together out of those.

It's not like being a novelist, where if your book needs a scene then you just write it in.