Why the Dragon Age 2 hate is GOOD

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Legendairy314

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A call for quality is in no way bad but if you REALLY want to change the industry shouldn't you be going after the main culprits behind this? Call of Duty breaks records every year and gives other companies the impression that we want the industry to run on a yearly basis (as in all games created within a year's time of the last game the company made). I just don't think subjective opinions for a single company/game series should be enough; strike the devil in the heart not the toe.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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mjc0961 said:
FieryTrainwreck said:
Remember when they tried to turn Cole of InFamous into a fucking frat boy? People went nuts and got them to change it back. We need more of that to keep the goddamn board members and focus groups out of our creative spaces.
I would have worded that as "Remember when the pussies at Sucker Punch caved to public outcry and changed the creative direction they wanted to take with their main character?"

I give many kudos to BioWare for putting out the game that THEY wanted to make, and not changing everything because of some whiny twits on some forums cried about it. If companies were all little bitches and caved like Sucker Punch did because of a little QQing, games would never get made because you can't please everyone and thus you'd be changing things forever.

We need LESS spineless developers and more developers with some balls to put out their games how they want them to be. The taliban faction in Medal of Honor should not be called "opposing force", Six Days in Fallujah deserves to be finished and released, Cole should look like an even bigger douchebag, spawn grenades in Killzone 2's multiplayer shouldn't make you vulnerable, and I could go on and on with a list of bad decisions that were made because people QQed at publishers and developers.

No. Fuck that. Have some balls and make the game YOU want to make, and don't change it because some whiners on forums didn't like it.
I find this whole post hilarious. They are constantly changing games because a focus group or a publishing board tells them to do so. They are NEVER making the games they want to make anymore. So if it comes down to players getting what they want or a couple bumfucks in a focus test or a board room getting what they want, I'll choose the players every goddamn time.

Seriously, you think they changed Cole because they wanted to? Why didn't they simply make him that way in the first place? Could it be that there were more pressures on them now, with the weight of a hit game on their shoulders, to bring in a larger audience? Really think about your point of view here. You're suggesting that they caved to what was likely nonexistent or far less pressure in their initial conception of the character only to stalwartly advocate severe change once the expectations were through the roof? That makes no sense.
 

badreaper74

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I am with you in DA i only ever played as a warrior. Rouges felt like warriors with crappier armor most of the time and mages just kind of stood there. Where as in the second one every class had its own feel. You play as a mage and it feels like you a total badass laying waste to everything in you path. I think one of the good things about DA 2 was how it made the combat feel more visceral and in your face.
 

Kevlar Eater

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Young Nasa said:
I bet everybody who hate this game hasn't even PLAYED it, they just PLAYED THE DEMO.....if u haven't beaten the game, STFU....

Do you know what BEING A FAN IS? That is supporting something thru the good and the bad....Don't u know how many Star Wars fans hated Episodes 1 and 2 but still supported it? Still know the whole damn movie by heart? THATS WHAT A FAN IS...

Don't you know how many Golden State Warrior fans sell out the arena even though their team isn't gonna make the playoffs?

ITS CALLED SUPPORT! Me and a lot of my friends love Dragon Age 2 way more than 1, but for those who saying DA2 suck, but can't tell me any of the new lore, who can't discuss with me the changes that happened in the world's lore, who can't tell me how their ending of the game differed from mine, YOU ARE NOT A FAN!

Suck or don't suck, if u LOVE Dragon Age like u say u do, u play through this game, liking it or not.....I played Awakening even tho it had no gameplay changes or enhancements what so ever, but I played it for the STORY!
Would you spend money on something (or someone) you wouldn't enjoy if you knew what you going to get into beforehand? If no, then why should I? I made that mistake when I bought Fallout: New Vegas, and despite people warning me that it was incredibly buggy, I bought it, and didn't enjoy it... much. Like hell I'm repeating that mistake.

I prefer to look at where I'm gonna leap before I do so, as opposed to your leap of faith logic when it comes to [insert publisher/developer] games.
 

SecretAlienMan

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Wait I'm confused... what part of DA2 gameplay was drastically altered? The hack-n-slash bit or the dialogue wheel? in either case that change wasn't exactly "drastic"...
 

SturmDolch

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May 17, 2009
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Not sure if anyone will see this post, but we had two guys from BioWare talk at our University. They said that they were working on Dragon Age: Origins for 6 years, while Dragon Age 2 had more like 14 months. They wanted to fix a lot of things from the original, but ended up running out of time to incorporate it all.

BioWare is a company that employs a lot of great minds. I haven't played DA2, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and blame the parts getting bad press on the tight release schedule for it. Which would mean blaming the publisher, i.e. EA Games.

Either way, no game company is perfect. BioWare was bound to release a game that didn't meet expectations. Review scores seem to be ranging from 75-90%, but people are raging quite a bit about it. I'm not sure what that means. I'd have to play it myself.
 

Saelune

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Doug said:
Saelune said:
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
the real fans like how it was.
What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?
Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.
I think you're missing the point. If you are not a fan of the game, you're just not a fan. There's no such thing as a "Real Fan," there is just a fan or not a fan. There isn't some sort of fan+ status where you're like a normal fan, but better.
Fine. Remove the word real from infront of fan. Point still stands. Really I mean by real fan as someone who is a fan, compaired to a fake fan being someone giving improvements for a game they dont even like.
So really, it is you who is missing the point, my point.
I was a fan of both Dragon Age 1 and Dragon Age 2, even though I can see the flaws in both. Does that make me a real or fake fan?
I answered that multiple times. Everyone is just as narrow thinking as I apparently am though and just focuses on the smallest bit of what I said.

Liking the game = true fan, not liking the game = non fan, not liking the game but acting like it should change for you = fake fan. There. Defined.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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I agree with the spirit of the argument if not the particular points. When a game is not what one expected or wanted they certainly should complain if only so that those who made it are aware of their desires. But, by the same token, just because a game is not what one wanted or expected does not mean the game is bad nor does it mean that the previous game was perfect beyond improving.

There are plenty of things worthy of criticism in DA:2, from the glaring technical problems to environmental repetition but often the complaints are not couched in those terms. Rather the argument against the game is that "it has been dumbed down" in some respect or that various changes are sufficient to make the game something other than an RPG. What people seem to ignore is that an inventory system or character customization are no more capable of defining a genre or quality of an experience than the title screen and to level such accusations against the game does the person no favor whatsoever. Certainly one can like inventory systems and the like and even prefer their presence in a game but to claim that such things define what made the game "good" in the first place will do nothing to covert people to your side and even when I'm already generally on your side (in that DA:2 is simply not a great game) it makes me regret the tangential association.

Yes, people ought to complain when they are not satisfied, but by the same token if they're going to go through the effort to complain they ought to make sure they put an effort in being convincing. If they don't they are simply wasting. Sure, it may be difficult to sway people by rational argument but it is all but impossible to convert someone when simply screaming their opinion without justification or support behind it.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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Kevlar Eater said:
Would you spend money on something (or someone) you wouldn't enjoy if you knew what you going to get into beforehand?
If I was certain I would derive no pleasure from it or at least certain that the pleasure I might wring from it was not worth the price (in time and money) of admission the the answer is no. That said, having only limited capacity to judge the unknown future I am forced to use available skills and resources. A key part of this is bias: if I liked the previous game and I like the studio then, the logic would say, there is a good chance I will like the new game in spite of what people say. It turns out that I hold my personal experience in higher regard than strangers on the internet.

Kevlar Eater said:
If no, then why should I? I made that mistake when I bought Fallout: New Vegas, and despite people warning me that it was incredibly buggy, I bought it, and didn't enjoy it... much. Like hell I'm repeating that mistake.
Here you demonstrate this exact problem in action. You had information to the contrary and yet you chose to make the purchase in spite of it. Could it be then that you too hold your personal experience in higher regard than that of strangers on the internet?

Kevlar Eater said:
I prefer to look at where I'm gonna leap before I do so, as opposed to your leap of faith logic when it comes to [insert publisher/developer] games.
You did look before you jumped into New Vegas and you chose to do so anyway. Presumably you did the same thing with DA2. Given that in both instances you ignored the findings revealed by looking, what good did the effort do?

In the spirit of the post that elicited your comment however I have to point out that perhaps my least favorite kind of argument is the second hand argument and yet it is also incredibly common. If one has no experience with the product in question beyond reading the comments of others, what merit does their opinion really offer? As far as I can tell, it just wastes my time.
 

Continuity

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if DA2 had been to to DAO what BGII was to BG then I might of actually bought it.

Seriously. BGII made the BG series more complex, more epic, more... well just more. since when did the inverse become the norm?
 

Eclectic Dreck

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Continuity said:
if DA2 had been to to DAO what BGII was to BG then I might of actually bought it.

Seriously. BGII made the BG series more complex, more epic, more... well just more. since when did the inverse become the norm?
Since the point at which creating all of the associated assets with "more" started to take enormous periods of time. An entire "map" in Baldur's Gate consisted of a single painting and, in total, the game only featured a few hundred sprite "actors". Since voice acting was not expected for each and every line of dialog only a few hundred lines were recorded out of countless thousands. And since it wasn't expected that every sword and armor suit look different, you only had a few dozen variations on the theme (a dagger, a bow, a small shield, a medium shield, etc).

Simply put, in the time (not in terms of calendar years but actual years of labor on the project, something that can be modified by simply adding additional staff) available it couldn't have been done. This in no way should be considered a defense of the game as the developers as much as anyone were aware of this inherent limitation. That said, I am annoyed that people so commonly ask this very question so often (Morrowind to Oblivion for example) as the answer is inevitably the same for all of them.

In short, because of advancements in presentation and the resources required to deliver it simply isn't possible to make games of such scope and scale with any real hope of turning a profit. That doesn't mean one couldn't make games with easier standards of presentation of course but the common assumption is that such games simply would not sell well. This is perhaps Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress' main contribution to the industry; people are willing to buy games with poor (frankly terrible) presentation if the price and mechanics are right.
 

Continuity

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Eclectic Dreck said:
Continuity said:
if DA2 had been to to DAO what BGII was to BG then I might of actually bought it.

Seriously. BGII made the BG series more complex, more epic, more... well just more. since when did the inverse become the norm?
Since the point at which creating all of the associated assets with "more" started to take enormous periods of time. An entire "map" in Baldur's Gate consisted of a single painting and, in total, the game only featured a few hundred sprite "actors". Since voice acting was not expected for each and every line of dialog only a few hundred lines were recorded out of countless thousands. And since it wasn't expected that every sword and armor suit look different, you only had a few dozen variations on the theme (a dagger, a bow, a small shield, a medium shield, etc).

Simply put, in the time (not in terms of calendar years but actual years of labor on the project, something that can be modified by simply adding additional staff) available it couldn't have been done. This in no way should be considered a defense of the game as the developers as much as anyone were aware of this inherent limitation. That said, I am annoyed that people so commonly ask this very question so often (Morrowind to Oblivion for example) as the answer is inevitably the same for all of them.

In short, because of advancements in presentation and the resources required to deliver it simply isn't possible to make games of such scope and scale with any real hope of turning a profit. That doesn't mean one couldn't make games with easier standards of presentation of course but the common assumption is that such games simply would not sell well. This is perhaps Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress' main contribution to the industry; people are willing to buy games with poor (frankly terrible) presentation if the price and mechanics are right.

maybe....

But, and with respect to your opinion, you're making assumptions here (you're not a developer?). I doubt there is any more overhead in making a sequel in the Dragon age engine than there was in the baldurs gate engine. ONce you have the engine there after all its just more story, more dialogue, more art, maybe more cut scenes. yes the presentation has stepped up a notch but so have the tools and the developers and the budgets... Smells of poor excuse to me.

Plus, for the record, you do a great disservice to baldurs gate II with your description. Dont mistake low res for low content.
 

valkeminator

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I would say any criticism or comment, whether positive or negative should be accepted. If its full of positive things then it would mean people like it, while negative reactions or hate if some people prefer : can actually be a good thing, just simply because through negative comment you get to see where your mistake is, and what went wrong. In this case I suppose this should give Bioware some thought on what did they do wrong this time, and improve the quality of their future games.

Hopefully.

(please dont ruin Mass Effect 3 :( )
 

The Gnome King

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I have no problem with constructive criticism and I doubt Bioware does, either. Hearing from your fan base (we in Corporate America call it 'customer feedback'...) is a good thing.

The key word is "constructive" - saying you hate something without being specific doesn't do much good. For example, I liked both Dragon Age 1 and Dragon Age 2. My opinions could be boiled down to this:

I like the combat in both games; it's different; but it's a bit too twitchy and fast-paced in DA2. I honestly love the storyline in DA2 - I never had an urge to play through DA1 again after beating it but I am already on my second play-through with DA2. I like the characters a bit better in DA2 - for whatever reason; taste is subjective here.

I don't think a gaming company has any "duty" to their fans to "keep things the same" - I think they have a duty to make entertaining games and earn shareholders as much as possible; like any business in a capitalist nation. Not pandering to their original fan base may be a good thing or it may not be - only time will tell. If the fans of the original DA1 dislike DA2, Bioware will see this in reduced sales.

No company will spend time and resources on creating something that will sell LESS; if you're creating something for a fan base instead of for the largest consumer market possible that's a hobby; not a business. (And nothing wrong with hobbies not-for-profit; some great fun has been had by yours truly on persistent world servers in Neverwinter Nights 2, for example. These creations are a labor of love. Games like DA2 that cost hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars to produce aren't labors of love; hopefully they combine the love and concern of an artist/game designer with sound market economics and an attempt to reach the largest demographic possible.)

Think about it like this - if you owned a restaurant and you wanted to be successful, you would cook food that the largest amount of people you could get inside your doors liked. If you started with, say, spicy food and you had many people complain that your food was over-spiced you may choose to change your recipe. In doing so, you may find your customer base doubles. This isn't done out of spite to the original patrons who liked your over-spicy food; it's a business decision. You want to provide tasty food to as many people as possible.

In Bioware's case they want to provide the best gaming experience to as many people as possible, not just original fans of the first game. Hopefully a balance can be struck that pleases fans of the first game - ensuring repeat buyers - and also gains a new audience.

Again, though - constructive criticism is good if it helps the developers make an even better game next time. I was disappointed that the Warden wasn't the main character of DA2, for example. Then I just relaxed myself into the new story and found I enjoyed the game for what it was - a different game.
 

CCountZero

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Elamdri said:
I guess what I'm getting as is why should the established fan base have more say than a potential fan base?
The established fan base is the sole cause for there being a sequel in the first place.

Taking Crysis 2 as an example, its existance is based upon the MASSIVE hype that was generated by the high-end PC community of the first two.

It was pirated in crazy numbers, in large part by people who wanted to test their PCs against this hardware-eater.

Now, with the release of Crysis 2, you basicly have a game designed with consoles in mind, from the control scheme to the lack of free-roam maps, and everything in between.

That, to me, is a betrayal of the original fanbase, that made the game what it is, and generated the hype that caused so many Console-only players to wet their pants with envy.

Whether one liked the gameplay or the original or not is immaterial. Everybody and thier mums wanted to try this game, solely because of the hype.

Personally, I can live with the gameplay of both, but the original, to me, is far superiour in gameplay, and frankly I felt a much greater sense of purpose and direction in the original, even without corridors.

That said though, the weapons in Crysis 2 are awesome. I love me the weapons...
 

Eclectic Dreck

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Continuity said:
maybe....

But, and with respect to your opinion, you're making assumptions here (you're not a developer?). I doubt there is any more overhead in making a sequel in the Dragon age engine than there was in the baldurs gate engine. ONce you have the engine there after all its just more story, more dialogue, more art, maybe more cut scenes. yes the presentation has stepped up a notch but so have the tools and the developers and the budgets... Smells of poor excuse to me.
The engine is an engineering problem. You'll note that, whenever the credits roll in any AAA game you care to find that the number of engineers and programmers is rather small compared to the dozens of people working in various capacities as "artists". It is the content itself, not the software that makes said content do things, that lies at the heart of the matter. This is the very reason why games like Assassin's Creed 2 boasted a staff of nearly four hundred employees across a number of contents and studios.

Continuity said:
Plus, for the record, you do a great disservice to baldurs gate II with your description. Dont mistake low res for low content.
I'm not saying that there was little content but rather that the content that was there was easy to create. Hell, in some cases, the amount of content was shockingly low. There was precisely one (and only one) graphic for any type of item a character might use and any variety that seemed to exist was a palette swap of a trivial sort. This does not, by any stretch, make the game bad in any way. The reality I am attempting to illustrate here is that the content was easy to produce and thus there was simply more of it.
 

MasterChief892039

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The game is appealing, entertaining, and acknowledges that it has fans that aren't necessarily straight males. You can nitpick gameplay elements if you want, but Bioware as a whole is taking huge steps in the right direction, and for that they deserve my money.
 

Di'kut

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Arontala said:
Traun said:
Arontala said:
For the most part, I agree with you, but I still don't understand why people are complaining in places that are completely unrelated to Bioware. Go on the Bioware forums, or put it on your blog, not in totally random places.
The sad truth is that this will get locked and deleted in the Bioware forum. This is the "gaming section" of a "gaming magazine", where should he take it? Oprah?
If the thread doesn't deteriorate into name-calling, Bioware will generally let threads criticizing the game stay up, even if it is mostly negative criticism.


I take it you've never heard of Stanley Woo then? Worst moderator I've ever seen on any site, just look at the screencap I posted.