Why the Dragon Age 2 hate is GOOD

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Continuity

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May 20, 2010
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Sabiancym said:
mireko said:
Sabiancym said:
Bethesda: "Woah, did you see what happened to Bioware when they tried to release a crappy dumbed down rushed console sequel when the original was a deep classic PC RPG?? Let's make sure we don't do the same for Skyrim."
Obsidian Oblivion and DA:O = Deep classic PC RPGs?

Historical revisionism is alive and well, it seems.
Deeper than current RPGs and definitely a throwback to Baldurs gate.
Take it back, sir, lest I punch ye through teh internets.

Comparing DAO to BG is like comparing Daikatana to half-life.

OT: well I'm gad I'm no longer the only one crying out about wave after wave of content reduction and "streamlining" (read simplifying), there is no such thing as a simple RPG, that completely misses the point. The more arcane the better. Srsly, the is no such thing as an RPG that is too complex to be a good game.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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FieryTrainwreck said:
I know a lot of people are tired of all the DA2 hate/debate, but I can't get enough of it. See, EA/Bioware, like a lot of modern pubs/devs, took a lot of things for granted with DA2. Bad things. Traditionally, they've gotten away with this shit. Seems like DA2, for whatever reason, is the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm thankful for that, and I'll try to explain why.

Let's get the most obvious bit out of the way; the game was horribly rushed. You can see it in the design shortcuts ("waves"...), the shamelessly reused assets, the inconsistent modeling (Bethany's hands...), and the overall lack of content compared to the first game. Whether you prefer the sequel or not, you can't really argue that DA1 had significantly more raw "stuff". Was that a product of an extra three years in development? Of course. But that's the point, isn't it? For whatever reason, publishers have been leaning on devs to finish projects unreasonably fast, and the end result is inferior games. I hope DA2 represents some actual fucking pushback on this issue. It'd be nice to send a very public and (hopefully) financial message to EA (and the like) that we want polished, fleshed-out products - not super-rushed sequels.

That brings me to my second point. Devs/pubs have this incessant need to expand their audience (aka sales), and the "best" way to accomplish this is through broadening the appeal of the product. This means changing it, and not always for the best. Frequently, it means removing whole aspects of the original title in order to garner a new fanbase - and relying on the unwavering loyalty of your existing fanbase, whom you expect to support your game based on name recognition and even nostalgia. And that's bullshit. If you're going to call something Dragon Age while removing a decent chunk of what defined the original game, you absolutely deserve a ton of hate. You listened to the board members who told you to keep the same IP while drastically altering the product because it's a "no risk" proposition for them. People who liked the first game will buy the second, and maybe some new people will, too. Win/win, right? Sure it is, if you endorse dishonesty as a policy.

TLDR version: if they're going to hijack IPs for mass consumption AND rush them out the door with no concern for quality, it's up to the community to call them on that shit. They do that stuff because it makes them more money. If a bunch of nasty word-of-mouth and user-reviews puts a big enough dent in their sales, there's a chance they might not pull that bs on their future projects. Even if you love DA2, you have to acknowledge that it represents some pretty negative trends in this industry. Flying in the face of those trends means more good games for all of us.

Remember when they tried to turn Cole of InFamous into a fucking frat boy? People went nuts and got them to change it back. We need more of that to keep the goddamn board members and focus groups out of our creative spaces.

So by all means, ***** away.
I completely agree. I smirk when I see a new DA2 topic. This may sound mean, but I hope DA2 flops in terms of sales. That would send Bioware the message that ME3 and any future games had better be up to par because we won't accept anything less. I hate how smug BW has gotten. They criticized Origins for having combat that "felt like you were rolling dice in the background." Wow, so the game designed specifically to play like that--gasp!--plays like that. If you want to make a grab at a larger audience BW then that is fine; just be honest about it. Don't piss on me and tell me it is raining.
 

Pearwood

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Well as much as I liked the first game the combat in it was AWFUL, the sequel seems to have fixed that.
 

Littaly

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I kind of agree with the OP. Even though I think the hate for DAII is vastly exaggerated (let's face it, for all the things it did wrong it also did a lot of things right), it's probably for the best. If community input has any effect on the game development whatsoever, then the best thing to do is probably to stop the slide down the slippery slope before it goes too far, even if it means a somewhat exaggerated reaction.
 

Anti Nudist Cupcake

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I'm not gonna read all the comments but i'm just gonna push the little "I AGREE" button and say that anyone who disagrees are merely illusions and should be ignored. Because anybody who thinks that we should let EA and Bioware get away with bad quality is a fool.
 

Smertnik

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Apr 5, 2010
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Nothing wrong with streamlining, in my opinion. But yeah, it's a shame that the game has been rushed.
 

Doug

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Saelune said:
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
Elamdri said:
Saelune said:
the real fans like how it was.
What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?
Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.
I think you're missing the point. If you are not a fan of the game, you're just not a fan. There's no such thing as a "Real Fan," there is just a fan or not a fan. There isn't some sort of fan+ status where you're like a normal fan, but better.
Fine. Remove the word real from infront of fan. Point still stands. Really I mean by real fan as someone who is a fan, compaired to a fake fan being someone giving improvements for a game they dont even like.
So really, it is you who is missing the point, my point.
I was a fan of both Dragon Age 1 and Dragon Age 2, even though I can see the flaws in both. Does that make me a real or fake fan?
 

Deviluk

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I actually liked DA2...the first time around. When they streamline it down so much that nothing can really change on a second or third playthrough, why kind of RPG is that? Also the story I found was just not good. Not epic at all.

OP: I agree with you on that. Never thought of it like that either. Lets complain away!
 

AlternatePFG

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Okay, I really liked DA2 on the first playthrough. I was able to ignore the lazy ass design for that time, and I thought it was pretty fun. Played again as a mage, still thought it was fun. Tried one more playthrough with a warrior, and suddenly I never wanted to touch the game again.

It's lazy, but it's a still a good game. I really wish EA gave BioWare more time, because as it stands, I've already mostly forgotten about DA2. It's not as memorable for me as the first game, mostly because the sidequests take place on the same goddamn map. Seriously, there is no excuse for there only being like a half a dozen dungeon layouts.
 

googleback

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Agreed, the game is ALRIGHT but nothing to write home about. and I dont like the "drug dealer" methodology that Bioware has been employing of late...
 

veloper

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Agreed. If you don't complain and speak out as to WHY you didn't buy the stupid game, your favourite niche will die for sure.
 

Casual Shinji

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Well said, OP! Well said indeed!

I can safely say that the only (somewhat) improvement DA2 has over DA:O is that being a mage actually feels kind of badass now.
What I loved about DA:O was that it gave you ample breathing room to create your own character and story. DA2 only allows you to make a handfull of choices in a character's already predetermined story.

I know people are compairing the lack of companion armor customisation in DA2 to what they did in ME2, but atleast in ME2 they didn't give you classified armor which you couldn't wear because you happened to fall outside its classification. Seriously, why put Warrior or Rogue armor in there in the first place if you playthrough the game as a Mage, but can't give the armor to your Warrior or Rogue companion?
 

Sonic Doctor

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Jan 9, 2010
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Meh, I find all the complaints about Dragon Age 2 to be petty and childish. The game is awesome, all the haters can go on Metacritic and give the game 0s just to act out immaturely(I didn't see one clear thought out argument in any of the user reviews), but it will get them nowhere, while the majority is sitting at home and playing the game over and over again and loving every minute of it.

I love how Bioware fixed the problems that Origins had and what they came up with is phenomenal. I can't wait for Dragon Age 3 and I hope it is just like DA2. They can make changes when making DA3 as long as they don't mess with the combat, dialogue system, and the awesome skill-tree setup. They can improve the game anyway they see fit, but the perfected those three areas of the series.

If people are so put off about what BioWare has done, leave them alone and move on to some other developer; it will leave more awesomeness to go around for the people that like what they are doing, like everybody that I know outside the internet that has played DA2, we all love it. If you don't like it move onto another developer, that is what consumers do, if you don't like the product coming out move on to somebody else's product.

I don't want to start an argument, but these threads are getting old. It seems like there is a new one every two days. The same people come out and say the same thing over and over. It will always end in a stalemate, no matter if I see the hate arguments as flimsy. They are so bad that they have to started conspiracy theories about reviewers that actually gave the game a fair shake and put out their opinion that the game is a ten out of ten, but no, nobody can possibly give the game a ten unless they are being paid off.

It all just has to end.
 

Sonic Doctor

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Casual Shinji said:
Seriously, why put Warrior or Rogue armor in there in the first place if you playthrough the game as a Mage, but can't give the armor to your Warrior or Rogue companion?
I never would have raised the coin to get some of the things I needed if I didn't have those random pieces of armor to sell. To me it makes the game more believable that I took the armor off the dead people and sold it, then the people having 3 giant sacks of money on each of them.
 

SacremPyrobolum

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Arontala said:
For the most part, I agree with you, but I still don't understand why people are complaining in places that are completely unrelated to Bioware. Go on the Bioware forums, or put it on your blog, not in totally random places.
He doesnt want to get locked out o his game for critizim D:
 

JoshGod

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Elamdri said:
2. To address your point anyway: Why is it that someone who doesn't enjoy something can't criticize something or offer suggestions for improvement? It's strange, (and I'm not picking on you here, this is indicitive of society as a whole) but for some reason, people who enjoy something have this bizarre belief that people who criticize what they enjoy have no right to do so. I mean, if you look at a song for example on Youtube, if you see someone who expresses displeasure at what the song is, instantly everyone else jumps on them and starts telling them to leave if they don't enjoy it. What's strange is that it makes no logical sense to exclude people who don't enjoy something from commenting on whatever it is they don't enjoy. What if they actually have a way to improve it? What if it turns out there way of thinking is better? What if it turns out that while you think you don' like their idea, in reality you would like it, you're just unwilling to give it a try? What if the people who dislike something outnumber the people who like it? What right does the minority have to suppress the will of the majority (Honestly this goes both ways, but it's a perfectly fair argument)?
When someone who doesn't like something changes it so they do like it will mean that the changes will (mostly) be unliked by those who originally liked it in the first place i.e. you work to put off your old audience to try attract a new one (imagine say a socialist taking over and reforming a conservative party if that's what the conservatives really wanted they would not be conservatives in the first place).