Why the Dragon Age 2 hate is GOOD

[white_salad]

Criticism is very important. Dragon Age 2 did have issues, and I feel it was rather rushed. If a company does this, they deserve to be critiqued, so they can learn from their follies.

Hate on the other hand is not good. Hate comes off as stupid and uninspired, dribble from the foaming of a mad dog. Developers won't learn from this, they just see a bunch of angry idiots.

So critique games all you please, hell nitpick, every little bit counts, but don't bash a game wholeheartedly for it's errors.

 

[Young Nasa]

My thing is they are saying that this game felt unfinished, as compared to what? Name another game other than Origins that you are comparing it to....then call it unfinished...its a fully featured RPG...

 

[viranimus]

Megasnippage.

Nope, not in the slightest. Ill tell you a little secret. I am a hateful uncaring (albeit eloquent) prick. I dont care in the slightest for how Anders accepted a demon thinking it was a good thing and then cant cope when he finds out hes wrong. I dont care about brother/sister who constantly frowns on you for looking badly on apostates and then accepts their fate as shes taken back to the circle. I dont care about anything out of Varrics mouth as he is insanely grating on my nerves. I could go on, but to do so would be pointless. I simply dont care about whining human drama. Honestly there are points in the narrative that try to draw you in on an emotional level but it comes off with all the sincerity of reality tv.

Now, I am not saying the story is bad. Just like I would not say Pride and Prejudice is a bad book. I just cannot be troubled to give a shit to read it. After playing 40 plus hours into DA2 I really did not care about the chars. And I hate to break it to you, but its not just my opinion because I have already seen too many reviews that say essentially the same thing in a more polite and politically correct fashion.

Im sorry if I might have misinterpreted what you were trying to get at, Trollish is like a 4th language to me. You might not be a troll, but your reaction sounds very much like it.

 

[Burnseasons]

Thats because TRUE gamers love games like Modern Warefare and the Call of Duty franchises because it diversifies our hobby to others and make it more accessible.

Wait? What? True gamers? as in the thousands of gamers who have been playing games for 10-20+ years who cant stand Call of duty or shooters at all are false gamers? I will choose to think that was just worded poorly and not an insult to a very large portion of the gaming community.

Look, I get what your trying to drive at, and to some extent yes that is a semi logical development path. However I really dont think people are bitching about dragon age 2 because its more accessible or different than origins. People are bitching about 2 predominantly because its an unfinished game, and its substantially below the level of writing that gave bioware the notoriety that it has garnered in the last 10 years that from a narrative standpoint really does not give the player a lot of incentive to keep playing or care about the chars. If that is what you mean by making it accessible, then I wont bother playing another installment.

Sooooo you didn't play the game? So u didn't notice that either ur sister or brother can die at the beginning and u give a shit?

U don't care why Flemeth asked u to deliever an amulet?

You don't care about Justice and Anders being melded into one,and justice turning into a spirit of vengences?

So you don't care that, depending on ur decision early in the game ur sister (the mage) can get taken to the circle or end up having to become a grey warden IF you have the right party member on ur team?

So you don't care about ur mother marrying a mage, and thus shamed her family and left her inheritance only for her drunk brother to waste it all, and now u have to get it back...

Sooooooooooooooo you really don't care that, ya know if u play as a mage, ur brother can become a templar which ends up with some crazy storylines happening

Soooooooooooooo you really don't care that u can actually play the game with different classes and actually see weapons and or skill set context cut scenes depending on ur character class

That the world treats u veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy different if u choose to be an Apostate Mage, that there is no "right of conscription" to make you immune to "mage hate"....

You really don't care that you can actually hear you character speak, and interact with the world, other than stand there lookin like a dumbass....

You really don't care that u can clearly see what type of response you are making other than picking some shyt as a silent Warden and making a mistake and give an homosexual elf cause to think u wanna butt fuck him

Soooooooooooooo really don't give as ashit about "the event" that Hawke has caused to give the Chantry reason to look for him

So you realllllllllllllllllllllly don't care that now ur Companions aren't just "Create a characters" that they possess unique skills that no other person in the game can get?

Sooooo you really don't give a shit weapons and armor that look unique even mask that look unique and aren't just different colors of each other...

ALOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of people LOVE this game, everybody I know how played it got addicted to it....

YOU NEVER PLAYED THE GAME

NONE OF U PLAYED THE GAME, I can tell....

"Zomg Me played z demoz!"

Fuck outta here

Im not actually sure how you can deny the game was rushed. Its obvious in so many areas. Ive played through the game twice so no using that excuse on me.
Its been streamlined in a lot of ways, for better of for worse. But you're saying the story-telling is better then DA:O? No, just no.
Dragon Age 2 has good ideas and plots, but their actual execution is terrible (For Bioware anyways, for others it'd be pretty decent imo). From some instances of horrible voice acting (Im looking at you Orianna from Fenris' storyline) to just some bad dialogue writing.
One instance in particular I remember is going to stop a group of Apostates that were summoning demons into people. There was no way I could take it seriously after listening to it. Nor am I alone in that regard. My friends agreed too (See? I can use that argument too).
With the exception of the key points in the story, which makes sense, its very sub-par given Biowares track record.
And to pick out a few of your points, namely the cutscenes changing and your actions affecting your siblings. The cutscenes changing depending on your class? How is that actually special? It doesn't change anything other then show you a new little cutscene that makes next to no difference. And there are several instances where this SHOULD have been applied (Such as always throwing a knife at a skeleton when rescuing your mother regardless of class) where it wasn't.

And for the siblings? The only real impact it has on the story is which side they're on at the end of the game. For most of the time it wont be affecting you in any major way, and given how little effort was given into actually making them likeable..

 

[Rack]

My thing is they are saying that this game felt unfinished, as compared to what? Name another game other than Origins that you are comparing it to....then call it unfinished...its a fully featured RPG...

Really? We can't compare Dragon Age 2 to Dragon Age? That seems somewhat limiting...

 

[babinro]

Being a huge fan of DA:O...I feel DA2 is amazing with extremely lazy design.

Some of the hate for this game is valid...but when it comes down to it, DA2 is simply a lot more fun to play than DA:O. The gameplay (for me) is all that matters and that's where DA2 shines.

'Simplifying' needless mechanics of potions/runes/poisons was a great idea. Removing some equipment slots from NPC's was also a fine decision since you have to work to improve those pieces. This gives them a gaming element as well. You could use that concept for all character equipment slots and this game would still fit nicely in the RPG genre (although I'm sure fans would hate it all the more).

The idea of monster waves is an excellent one for this franchise. I feel it suits the DA world beautifully. They just went way overboard on it in DA2. Nearly every battle has waves...and the waves tend to spawn rather than run in from other rooms/areas. I think the hate comes mostly from the spawning...but that's an easy fix. You could even have the enemies calling for reinforcements with horns and the like to help justify the action.

The main complaint that is incredibly fair is the recycled maps. This is just flat out lazy and really takes away from what is otherwise an excellent product with only minor gripes.

 

[GotMalkAvian]

1. Criticism is a good thing, and it's definitely our responsibility as consumers to call out companies who make mistakes.

2. In order to be effective, criticism needs to be constructive and coherent. Threats, profanity, and a complete disregard for grammar and/or spelling tend to take some of the wind out of a person's argument.

 

[pixiejedi]

Super snip

I'm getting on the flame bandwagon right here. Why say people didn't play the game? Is it because you just can't picture someone having an opposing view compared to you?

Imagine for a moment that you are a parent, would you let your kid run through highways and hack up animals if you cared about him/her? If we don't say something it will not get the opportunity to get a second look to see what did and didn't work.

Going through my second playthrough right now and I personally think its the worst thing I've seen Bioware put out since I've started with them. It doesn't mean I'm just some angry troll out there to bad-mouth the game of the dev team or the publishers. I just didn't like choices pursued in the second game.

I didn't think the frame narrative works in a situation where you are supposed to have some semblance of choice, I didn't feel invested in the characters one way or the other. As much as I love to bash on FFXIII I can at least say I gave a fuck about those characters, in that I wanted them to go to a very special place in hell. I loved the cast of DA:O, I get you can't win them all though.

I liked the changes in ME2, but that is partially because they never really tried to sell the idea that this was a return to the age of bygones past. Games touted as the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate don't really have that luxury.

The nuts and the bolts of the game are there indeed, but it doesn't grow beyond the sum of its parts in the ways that their previous titles have. Ultimately I just hope this was simply a learning mistake and not a death nail in the IP because I KNOW they can do much better than this.

PS- A lot of the appearances of characters from Origins and Awakenings were merely shout outs to fans, yes I squealed like a baby when Alistair said Swooping is bad, But that is hardly the "incredible references" that you mention. Now kindly pull your head out of the sand and join us in the grown up table for some purely objective criticism with no childish name calling.

 

[Hawgh]

I find the complaint about reused assets completely valid. However, the waves of enemies as an indicator of an unfinished game doesn't make much sense to me. Furthermore, this is the first I've read of someone complaining that their issue with the game is that it is rushed. Complaints are otherwise of the "I liked this and that in Dragon Age or Baldur's Gate. It is different, in even the most superficial sense, in Dragon Age 2, so now the game is less than trash.". Those are not complaints that are going to solicit anything but annoyance. Hell, I felt that the first Dragon Age was a bland and padded experience compared to pretty much every Bioware game I had played before.

I agree that the game could have done with some additional time in development. But it would not have changed that fact that most complaints are of the "they changed it, now it sucks" variety.

Lastly, the incessant assumptions on the motivations for decisions and internal going-ons of the company has made it very difficult to maintain a civil tone here, sorry if I come across as crass.

 

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Bethesda: "Woah, did you see what happened to Bioware when they tried to release a crappy dumbed down rushed console sequel when the original was a deep classic PC RPG?? Let's make sure we don't do the same for Skyrim."

Obsidian Oblivion and DA:O = Deep classic PC RPGs?

Historical revisionism is alive and well, it seems.

Deeper than current RPGs and definitely a throwback to Baldurs gate.

More like a throw back to KOTOR. If it had party member death, full stealth, didnt have auto healing or level scaling, had a real clock time/calendar with day and night and weather, and six party members then you could say it was a throw back to BG.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Your comment about reusing art assets made me cringe. You have no idea how many times art assets get reused in games. Most of time they just get rearranged enough for you to not notice. Those tricky level designers...

OT: I support the notion of not releasing a game until its done but I feel your other argument may have been too strong. There is a very fine line between "not removing features and important elements" and "making everything static and wallowing." Sometimes you need to rip out some guts to try and implement a new and interesting system and sometime new ideas fail (horribly). There has a to be the freedom to experiment and possibly see things blow up in your face. No top of that... games change. Just because the original was one way does not necessarily mean the upteen one has to be the same. Isn't that why people hat Zelda because it doesn't change? There needs to be a chance to experiment and fail or a game series is doomed to remake the same game forever.

In addition, although I'm against rushing I also know that its hard to nail down a certain length that a game will be developed in. So many factors influence how long a game takes to be "finished." Even then, games are never finished... ever. There is always more tweaking and improvements that can be made. Its always a matter of figuring out a point where its not done but its close enough or its not done but we got to ship it. Publishers and developers don't have some exact formula. They can take a stab at it and they know when its going to be a rush job but this field also requires careful evaluation. Also keep in mind that not everyone is Valve and can delay their game indefinitely people got to eat and that means releasing games on a regular schedule wither they are fully done or not. I am against clear rush job though.

 

[Mushroom 118i]

EDIT: Deleted own post. Going to make own topic as its kind of a tangent from this one.

 

[Madkipz]

the 10 Steps taken by haters to hate game.
(1) Play the demo
(2) post that the demo is sucks.
(3) get told that the demo is not indicative of how the game will play out.
(4) Preorder the game
(5) Play the game from start to finish multiple times.
(6) Point out multiple of layered flaws of the game, call it worse than dynasty warriors.
(7) Get told off by blind ea fanboys that you probably did not even play the game, that its a 10/10, its epic, has choice, not linear at all and the biggest immersive experience since Mass effect 2.
(8) Replay the game twice more just to be sure.
(9) By this time any hater of the game has played it trough 6 times on multiple difficulties, providing pages upon pages of hateposts a day.
(10) EA doesnt care because even the haters brought the game and will probably buy DA3 aswell.

 

[kailash]

I had a longer post, but I realized I only had one point in the end; fuck the publishers for buying up devs and making them robots spitting out clones and "safe" games instead of using their creativity. Oh and god forbid they let a game or two have a nisched fanbase anymore, jeez.

 

[kingcom]

Bethesda: "Woah, did you see what happened to Bioware when they tried to release a crappy dumbed down rushed console sequel when the original was a deep classic PC RPG?? Let's make sure we don't do the same for Skyrim."

Obsidian Oblivion and DA:O = Deep classic PC RPGs?

Historical revisionism is alive and well, it seems.

Deeper than current RPGs and definitely a throwback to Baldurs gate.

Comparison on shallow games does not make it deep.

Also, claimed to be a throwback to BG but I would disagree on many levels.

 

[voetballeeuw]

I enjoyed DA:O and DA2. I realize that DA2 was rushed, and creates an illusion of choice in many instances, but it gave me the chance to be part of Thedas's lore. The characters interested me, and the story was epic. I read every codex entry I could find, and explored every crevice. I can overlook the copy paste dungeons and other flaws, for these reasons. And hell, if that makes me a consoletard who's ruining the RPG genre then so be it. And for more relevance, I agree that criticism is definitely necessary--as long as it makes valid point. I saw a thread earlier today where the OP complained that DA2 didn't have misses.

 

[Zanaxal]

Well people still bought Dragon Age 1 even though the gameplay was boring.

Most people who played elder scrolls III (Not a kid at oblivion release) enjoyed that alot more then oblivion so i doubt rpg's are going to be getting better anytime soon.

They just seem to be getting more mainstream and dumbed down (which means simplified combat, stats system, inventory etc.) and then copy pasted a couple times to add length.

I would just wish for once i could play with a my own party setup and not having to add a bunch of unlikeable characters.

It's kind of good they failed, hopefully witcher 2 can get game of the year now and get the creds it finally deserved. Stands as a shining jewel in a ocean of low-mediocrity of copypaste rpgs.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

I'm playing DA2. I'm enjoying it. I prefer DA1. Those are my "biases".

The DA2 superfans need to decide something, though. Is the DA2 hate isolated, typical internet nonsense? Or is it obnoxiously prevalent and widespread?

Because it can't fucking be both.

Also, the game can't be viewed as a sales success at this point. They had a boatload of presales, helped by preorder specials. They had the goodwill created by the well-received original (something like 3.2 million total sales and counting for DA1). Yet DA2 is only a few thousand units ahead of where its predecessor was at this time. I doubt it has the same legs as DA1, which was an entirely new IP (and those typically take a while to gather steam).

I think there's a very good chance the negative word-of-mouth, message board assaults, and user-review bombings have impacted the sales of DA2. And if that's the case, I think it could be a very good thing for DA3.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

To draw in people who are too impatient to equip gear to every member of your party, they just make it so you can't, a la Mass Effect 2. I'd hate to see things like this continue as a trend.

I think they did that so your allies would keep their intended character designs, which I kind of prefer being as most of the armor and helmets in Origins looked lame anyways.

To be honest the only thing I preferred about Origins was that it was this big epic adventure and 2 basically took place in the same city for pretty much the whole game. The reusing location thing was fairly dodgy as well.

 

[Elamdri]

the real fans like how it was.

What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?

Real fun is nothing more than a camouflaged ego boost. Games simply make the pathetic feel better since they are probably in real life too. The entire design is based on creating a fake feeling of superiority where there i none... Its fake and pathetic but i guess common humans like it since they cant feel better about themselves without any non-buyable way... And thats where 90-95% of humanity is in, making this type of design almost needed in EVERY game...

Another kind of fun could be the excitement, adrenaline. In game where there is high speed and lethality, that is fun.

One rare form of fun is when you actually love the game design itself, and love the game even when you lose. This is very rare since 95% of humanity is therefore gets annoyed when they lose and dont feel so "good", but of course they can always blame luck and other things for their pathetic skill

I said "fan" not "fun"...