Why the Dragon Age 2 hate is GOOD

[Murmillos]

From what I understand, he didn't mean that, to put it in terms of Dragon Age, only people who loved Dragon Age 1 should have had input on Dragon Age 2. I believe he's referring to what amounts to a Black Ops player complaining about Assassin's Creed because it's not modern and isn't an fps, or whatever--essentially someone who had no serious interest in the original because it wasn't to his tastes, but would play the next game in the series if it were homogenized to whatever extent. Expanding your audience that way sounds nice on paper, but by doing this, you also turn your back on the people who actually cared about and enjoyed the first game as it was, even if it wasn't perfect. Improvements are one thing (see AC2 versus AC1), but improving it in such a way that the game takes a different direction (DA2 compared to DA:O) is something altogether different, and I think that's what Saelune was getting at.

And this is the problem. Too many times developers only look at the people who didn't like the first game and basically taking their input as the sole reason for the changes that make it into the sequel, in a way, assuming that everybody who liked the first one will like the sequel regardless of the change and everybody who didn't like the first one will like the sequel due to the changes, meaning more money. But they don't realize that they are shooting themselves in the foot over the short term growth while loosing the focus of the long term fan base. This is how game developers fall - trying to please everybody soon means you are pleasing nobody. While people who didn't like the game do have a say on future changes, it strongly appears at time what they have to say has too much weight on the changes.

I understand games are expensive and a bigger market is required to support current and future budgets - but is selling the soul of a game just to garner a few extra sales worth it?

While I don't mind revisiting locations in games (perhaps months or years later in game timeline) - a bit of necessary evil in big complex RPG's, I find that its 100% inexcusable that all caves share the same map - from the The Wounded Coast to Sundermount. Generic dungeons share all the same map; except for the visible doorways that don't open between dungeons A B C & D ... *sigh* Its like the DA2 team decided the best idea they could copy from from ME1 was the universal map lay out of all the underground outposts.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

the real fans like how it was.

What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?

Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.

I am a "real fan" who enjoyed Dragon Origins thoroughly, making over a half dozen characters and playing through all of the DLC. However, I don't have many complaints about Dragon Age 2. I was happy with most of the changes once I got used to them. The combat needed to be pumped up a bit, the companions have subtle differences depending on how you do things, your character has different actions based on how often you use certain forms of dialogue. Hell, I've had cut scenes change because of little things I did before.

Yes, it would be nice to put gear on your companions, however, you can instead keep the profit from selling the excess gear. The game isn't half as bad as all the bitching I keep hearing and I'm a "real fan," a pretentious term if I ever heard one...

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

From what I understand, he didn't mean that, to put it in terms of Dragon Age, only people who loved Dragon Age 1 should have had input on Dragon Age 2. I believe he's referring to what amounts to a Black Ops player complaining about Assassin's Creed because it's not modern and isn't an fps, or whatever--essentially someone who had no serious interest in the original because it wasn't to his tastes, but would play the next game in the series if it were homogenized to whatever extent. Expanding your audience that way sounds nice on paper, but by doing this, you also turn your back on the people who actually cared about and enjoyed the first game as it was, even if it wasn't perfect. Improvements are one thing (see AC2 versus AC1), but improving it in such a way that the game takes a different direction (DA2 compared to DA:O) is something altogether different, and I think that's what Saelune was getting at.

And this is the problem. Too many times developers only look at the people who didn't like the first game and basically taking their input as the sole reason for the changes that make it into the sequel, in a way, assuming that everybody who liked the first one will like the sequel regardless of the change and everybody who didn't like the first one will like the sequel due to the changes, meaning more money. But they don't realize that they are shooting themselves in the foot over the short term growth while loosing the focus of the long term fan base. This is how game developers fall - trying to please everybody soon means you are pleasing nobody. While people who didn't like the game do have a say on future changes, it strongly appears at time what they have to say has too much weight on the changes.

I understand games are expensive and a bigger market is required to support current and future budgets - but is selling the soul of a game just to garner a few extra sales worth it?

While I don't mind revisiting locations in games (perhaps months or years later in game timeline) - a bit of necessary evil in big complex RPG's, I find that its 100% inexcusable that all caves share the same map - from the The Wounded Coast to Sundermount. Generic dungeons share all the same map; except for the visible doorways that don't open between dungeons A B C & D ... *sigh* Its like the DA2 team decided the best idea they could copy from from ME1 was the universal map lay out of all the underground outposts.

The Map argument is one of the few points I'll actually back in this series of hate. I was very disappointed to explore the same cave over and over again.

 

[mireko]

While I don't mind revisiting locations in games (perhaps months or years later in game timeline) - a bit of necessary evil in big complex RPG's, I find that its 100% inexcusable that all caves share the same map - from the The Wounded Coast to Sundermount. Generic dungeons share all the same map; except for the visible doorways that don't open between dungeons A B C & D ... *sigh* Its like the DA2 team decided the best idea they could copy from from ME1 was the universal map lay out of all the underground outposts.

Hey, that's the reason I didn't like Oblivion!

[sub]Something very ominous about that..[/sub]

 

[Saelune]

the real fans like how it was.

What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?

Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.

I am a "real fan" who enjoyed Dragon Origins thoroughly, making over a half dozen characters and playing through all of the DLC. However, I don't have many complaints about Dragon Age 2. I was happy with most of the changes once I got used to them. The combat needed to be pumped up a bit, the companions have subtle differences depending on how you do things, your character has different actions based on how often you use certain forms of dialogue. Hell, I've had cut scenes change because of little things I did before.

Yes, it would be nice to put gear on your companions, however, you can instead keep the profit from selling the excess gear. The game isn't half as bad as all the bitching I keep hearing and I'm a "real fan," a pretentious term if I ever heard one...

Yeah yeah, I use one word and Im pretentious, Cause no one is ever fake. No one ever says they like something when they dont. I am not making any difference between two people who liked a game to different degrees while still liking it. I am saying a real fan is someone who liked it, despite some flaws they may find, compaired to someone who just does not like the game at all, but still feels the game should change for them. I hate sport games, because its about sports and its boring to me. Id rather be killing ogres and getting treasure. Instead of saying Madden should add more ogres, I just go play something with ogres. (Though...there is a football game with a fantasy setting I just remebered as I type this)

 

[mr.mystery]

Wow you couldnt have said it any better. Dragon age two sucked! and I agree with you that it was rushed I hated that I was forced to play some homeless bearded guy. I mean LOOK at him he looks like a hobo!

 

[Necrofudge]

I wouldn't think changing a game to invite a new fan-base is completely bad if done right. Still, that only works if they're throwing in some major alteration that draws in people who've never even heard of the previous games, but still appeals to the hardcore fans that liked the old stuff. (fallout?)

I understand that we should complain or else we won't get good quality games from the industry, but it is a BUSINESS that you're complaining to. They would only listen if the suggestion would bring them greater profit. The lamenting cries of hundreds of thousands of neck-beards, bitching about how much they hate the changes and who will probably buy the game anyway, have little influence on the industries' decisions.

The rest of it I agree with.

[sup](Off topic: anyone else read the entirety of OP's post in the professor's voice?)[/sup]

Hey, that's the reason I didn't like Oblivion!

I don't think all of the dungeons in oblivion were exactly the same (minor variations and whatnot). Then again, I could be wrong. Haven't played it in forever.

 

[WonderWillard]

Eh... I agree that the game might have been a bit rushed (if anything because of the reused dungeon maps/layouts) but I don't think that the entire game suffered because of it. As I'm sure any video game enthusiast out there (trying to drop the word gamer from my vocabulary after that extra punctuation article lol) has seen, a lot of people hate it. But there is also a lot of people who love it. It's not so much a sequel as another game in the Dragon Age universe with nods to its predecessor. I wish that Bioware hadn't simply gone with "Dragon Age 2," and instead did "Dragon Age: Kirkwall" or "Champion" etc. Bioware just made a lot of drastic changes from DA:O, which had this polarizing effect. You can either make endless comparisons to Origins, and proclaim that it is too different to be any good, or you can view the game on its own, and make your decision based on what it has to offer.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

the real fans like how it was.

What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?

Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.

I am a "real fan" who enjoyed Dragon Origins thoroughly, making over a half dozen characters and playing through all of the DLC. However, I don't have many complaints about Dragon Age 2. I was happy with most of the changes once I got used to them. The combat needed to be pumped up a bit, the companions have subtle differences depending on how you do things, your character has different actions based on how often you use certain forms of dialogue. Hell, I've had cut scenes change because of little things I did before.

Yes, it would be nice to put gear on your companions, however, you can instead keep the profit from selling the excess gear. The game isn't half as bad as all the bitching I keep hearing and I'm a "real fan," a pretentious term if I ever heard one...

Yeah yeah, I use one word and Im pretentious, Cause no one is ever fake. No one ever says they like something when they dont. I am not making any difference between two people who liked a game to different degrees while still liking it. I am saying a real fan is someone who liked it, despite some flaws they may find, compaired to someone who just does not like the game at all, but still feels the game should change for them. I hate sport games, because its about sports and its boring to me. Id rather be killing ogres and getting treasure. Instead of saying Madden should add more ogres, I just go play something with ogres. (Though...there is a football game with a fantasy setting I just remebered as I type this)

The use of the phrase is pretentious as it assumes a One True Scotsman Fallacy, ie, if I don't agree with you, I am not a true fan. I liked Origins despite its flaw and enjoyed 2 despite its flaws. Making an insinuation that I am lying to myself is pretentious. Saying that I am not a real fan because I don't agree with you is pretentious.

Also, Ogres and Football have nothing to do with this argument, that is a strawman fallacy.

Simply put, if they like the game, they are a fan. If they do not, they aren't. No "real" needed. I liked a number of the changes, specializations actually feel like you are doing something more than four new skills. I like the changes in combat though I will be a putz and say that I miss cheating in battles like you could in Origins, IE casting spells into rooms before you open the door. I like how my family's appearance changed based on how I shaped my Hawke.

My only real complaint is the map repetition and the fact that I have 120 hours spread over three characters in post game and no new DLC to run them through. I enjoyed both games and I am a "real" fan. I don't feel they changed anything for nonfans, they made a lot of improvements in character interaction and streamlining. Sure, I would like to tailor my companions but fuck it, I am okay with selling all excess armor too.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

I wouldn't think changing a game to invite a new fan-base is completely bad if done right. Still, that only works if they're throwing in some major alteration that draws in people who've never even heard of the previous games, but still appeals to the hardcore fans that liked the old stuff. (fallout?)

I understand that we should complain or else we won't get good quality games from the industry, but it is a BUSINESS that you're complaining to. They would only listen if the suggestion would bring them greater profit. The lamenting cries of hundreds of thousands of neck-beards, bitching about how much they hate the changes and who will probably buy the game anyway, have little influence on the industries' decisions.

The rest of it I agree with.

[sup](Off topic: anyone else read the entirety of OP's post in the professor's voice?)[/sup]

Hey, that's the reason I didn't like Oblivion!

I don't think all of the dungeons in oblivion were exactly the same (minor variations and whatnot). Then again, I could be wrong. Haven't played it in forever.

They really weren't. A number of them shared similar architectural design because they were built by the same race but the maps were wildly different in a number of them.

 

[Saelune]

the real fans like how it was.

What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?

Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.

I am a "real fan" who enjoyed Dragon Origins thoroughly, making over a half dozen characters and playing through all of the DLC. However, I don't have many complaints about Dragon Age 2. I was happy with most of the changes once I got used to them. The combat needed to be pumped up a bit, the companions have subtle differences depending on how you do things, your character has different actions based on how often you use certain forms of dialogue. Hell, I've had cut scenes change because of little things I did before.

Yes, it would be nice to put gear on your companions, however, you can instead keep the profit from selling the excess gear. The game isn't half as bad as all the bitching I keep hearing and I'm a "real fan," a pretentious term if I ever heard one...

Yeah yeah, I use one word and Im pretentious, Cause no one is ever fake. No one ever says they like something when they dont. I am not making any difference between two people who liked a game to different degrees while still liking it. I am saying a real fan is someone who liked it, despite some flaws they may find, compaired to someone who just does not like the game at all, but still feels the game should change for them. I hate sport games, because its about sports and its boring to me. Id rather be killing ogres and getting treasure. Instead of saying Madden should add more ogres, I just go play something with ogres. (Though...there is a football game with a fantasy setting I just remebered as I type this)

The use of the phrase is pretentious as it assumes a One True Scotsman Fallacy, ie, if I don't agree with you, I am not a true fan. I liked Origins despite its flaw and enjoyed 2 despite its flaws. Making an insinuation that I am lying to myself is pretentious. Saying that I am not a real fan because I don't agree with you is pretentious.

Also, Ogres and Football have nothing to do with this argument, that is a strawman fallacy.

Simply put, if they like the game, they are a fan. If they do not, they aren't. No "real" needed. I liked a number of the changes, specializations actually feel like you are doing something more than four new skills. I like the changes in combat though I will be a putz and say that I miss cheating in battles like you could in Origins, IE casting spells into rooms before you open the door. I like how my family's appearance changed based on how I shaped my Hawke.

My only real complaint is the map repetition and the fact that I have 120 hours spread over three characters in post game and no new DLC to run them through. I enjoyed both games and I am a "real" fan. I don't feel they changed anything for nonfans, they made a lot of improvements in character interaction and streamlining. Sure, I would like to tailor my companions but fuck it, I am okay with selling all excess armor too.

So stuck everyone is on that one word. Dont like it, remove it. Then re-read it. Thats my point. The real put in was not something I intentionally put to make a specific "pretentious" point. I typed one extra word in a poor way and now everyone is missing my point. I agree, if you like the game you are a fan, if not, then not. But guess what, sometimes people say they are something they are not. But fine, focus on one badly placed word if you want.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

the real fans like how it was.

What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?

Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.

I am a "real fan" who enjoyed Dragon Origins thoroughly, making over a half dozen characters and playing through all of the DLC. However, I don't have many complaints about Dragon Age 2. I was happy with most of the changes once I got used to them. The combat needed to be pumped up a bit, the companions have subtle differences depending on how you do things, your character has different actions based on how often you use certain forms of dialogue. Hell, I've had cut scenes change because of little things I did before.

Yes, it would be nice to put gear on your companions, however, you can instead keep the profit from selling the excess gear. The game isn't half as bad as all the bitching I keep hearing and I'm a "real fan," a pretentious term if I ever heard one...

Yeah yeah, I use one word and Im pretentious, Cause no one is ever fake. No one ever says they like something when they dont. I am not making any difference between two people who liked a game to different degrees while still liking it. I am saying a real fan is someone who liked it, despite some flaws they may find, compaired to someone who just does not like the game at all, but still feels the game should change for them. I hate sport games, because its about sports and its boring to me. Id rather be killing ogres and getting treasure. Instead of saying Madden should add more ogres, I just go play something with ogres. (Though...there is a football game with a fantasy setting I just remebered as I type this)

The use of the phrase is pretentious as it assumes a One True Scotsman Fallacy, ie, if I don't agree with you, I am not a true fan. I liked Origins despite its flaw and enjoyed 2 despite its flaws. Making an insinuation that I am lying to myself is pretentious. Saying that I am not a real fan because I don't agree with you is pretentious.

Also, Ogres and Football have nothing to do with this argument, that is a strawman fallacy.

Simply put, if they like the game, they are a fan. If they do not, they aren't. No "real" needed. I liked a number of the changes, specializations actually feel like you are doing something more than four new skills. I like the changes in combat though I will be a putz and say that I miss cheating in battles like you could in Origins, IE casting spells into rooms before you open the door. I like how my family's appearance changed based on how I shaped my Hawke.

My only real complaint is the map repetition and the fact that I have 120 hours spread over three characters in post game and no new DLC to run them through. I enjoyed both games and I am a "real" fan. I don't feel they changed anything for nonfans, they made a lot of improvements in character interaction and streamlining. Sure, I would like to tailor my companions but fuck it, I am okay with selling all excess armor too.

So stuck everyone is on that one word. Dont like it, remove it. Then re-read it. Thats my point. The real put in was not something I intentionally put to make a specific "pretentious" point. I typed one extra word in a poor way and now everyone is missing my point. I agree, if you like the game you are a fan, if not, then not. But guess what, sometimes people say they are something they are not. But fine, focus on one badly placed word if you want.

The problem with your point is that you're accusing those who like the changes of lying because they don't share your view. Hell, most of what I can get out of your post is you are pissed that they changed the game because of... People self deluding themselves into thinking they like a game but want it changed into another game. You make it sound like a conspiracy, dude.

 

[CleverCover]

I have to agree that it was streamlined, and that some things were changed for the worse. My main gripe is the inventory system. To draw in people who are too impatient to equip gear to every member of your party, they just make it so you can't, a la Mass Effect 2. I'd hate to see things like this continue as a trend.

Oh MY FREAKING God thissssss. I hated that in ME2 as well. Your boobs, Jack, shouldn't be able to repel missles. >.>

I'm pretty freaking sure Bioware that this armor I found would do a hell of a lot more in the damage reduction department than having to run around looking in chests for the "oh look a new single part of your costume and I hope it makes a difference 'cuz I sure as hell can't tell". Not like it makes a difference. All I need is to up health and Carver fights Rock monsters just as well even without a single upgrade.

And I dislike having to go to the person's homebase to give a person a gift. If he's in my freaking party, I should be able to hand over a freaking necklace without going through a loading screen. It's like they took away the simple stuff from Origins when scouting for the bad. Simple isn't bad.

'breathes through nose' >.>

 

[Indecipherable]

He/she/it just wants their opinion to be that of 'a real fan' and then use this definition to dismiss any other opininos. They aren't real fans.

 

[Saelune]

the real fans like how it was.

What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?

Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.

I am a "real fan" who enjoyed Dragon Origins thoroughly, making over a half dozen characters and playing through all of the DLC. However, I don't have many complaints about Dragon Age 2. I was happy with most of the changes once I got used to them. The combat needed to be pumped up a bit, the companions have subtle differences depending on how you do things, your character has different actions based on how often you use certain forms of dialogue. Hell, I've had cut scenes change because of little things I did before.

Yes, it would be nice to put gear on your companions, however, you can instead keep the profit from selling the excess gear. The game isn't half as bad as all the bitching I keep hearing and I'm a "real fan," a pretentious term if I ever heard one...

Yeah yeah, I use one word and Im pretentious, Cause no one is ever fake. No one ever says they like something when they dont. I am not making any difference between two people who liked a game to different degrees while still liking it. I am saying a real fan is someone who liked it, despite some flaws they may find, compaired to someone who just does not like the game at all, but still feels the game should change for them. I hate sport games, because its about sports and its boring to me. Id rather be killing ogres and getting treasure. Instead of saying Madden should add more ogres, I just go play something with ogres. (Though...there is a football game with a fantasy setting I just remebered as I type this)

The use of the phrase is pretentious as it assumes a One True Scotsman Fallacy, ie, if I don't agree with you, I am not a true fan. I liked Origins despite its flaw and enjoyed 2 despite its flaws. Making an insinuation that I am lying to myself is pretentious. Saying that I am not a real fan because I don't agree with you is pretentious.

Also, Ogres and Football have nothing to do with this argument, that is a strawman fallacy.

Simply put, if they like the game, they are a fan. If they do not, they aren't. No "real" needed. I liked a number of the changes, specializations actually feel like you are doing something more than four new skills. I like the changes in combat though I will be a putz and say that I miss cheating in battles like you could in Origins, IE casting spells into rooms before you open the door. I like how my family's appearance changed based on how I shaped my Hawke.

My only real complaint is the map repetition and the fact that I have 120 hours spread over three characters in post game and no new DLC to run them through. I enjoyed both games and I am a "real" fan. I don't feel they changed anything for nonfans, they made a lot of improvements in character interaction and streamlining. Sure, I would like to tailor my companions but fuck it, I am okay with selling all excess armor too.

So stuck everyone is on that one word. Dont like it, remove it. Then re-read it. Thats my point. The real put in was not something I intentionally put to make a specific "pretentious" point. I typed one extra word in a poor way and now everyone is missing my point. I agree, if you like the game you are a fan, if not, then not. But guess what, sometimes people say they are something they are not. But fine, focus on one badly placed word if you want.

The problem with your point is that you're accusing those who like the changes of lying because they don't share your view. Hell, most of what I can get out of your post is you are pissed that they changed the game because of... People self deluding themselves into thinking they like a game but want it changed into another game. You make it sound like a conspiracy, dude.

Im saying if you dont like the game from the start, then your view matters atleast less than those of people who do like the game. And dont call me dude.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

the real fans like how it was.

What is a "real fan"

Is that opposed to say, an imaginary fan, that only lives in the dreams of developers?

Well, a real fan. Someone who actually LIKES it. If you dont like a game, then you are not a real fan. Maybe you play it for some reason, friends most likely, but you dont really like it. Im not talking about liking to the point of fanboy/girl, but that you like the game and would just want it to be better so you can like it more. I find when people suggest how to change a game they dont like to one they do, it would make more sense to play SOMETHING ELSE. Dont change the game I like as it was to some different game you probably wont even play just because you dont know when you dont like a style or genre. I dont like country music. I dont say how they could make it better, I just listen to something else.

I am a "real fan" who enjoyed Dragon Origins thoroughly, making over a half dozen characters and playing through all of the DLC. However, I don't have many complaints about Dragon Age 2. I was happy with most of the changes once I got used to them. The combat needed to be pumped up a bit, the companions have subtle differences depending on how you do things, your character has different actions based on how often you use certain forms of dialogue. Hell, I've had cut scenes change because of little things I did before.

Yes, it would be nice to put gear on your companions, however, you can instead keep the profit from selling the excess gear. The game isn't half as bad as all the bitching I keep hearing and I'm a "real fan," a pretentious term if I ever heard one...

Yeah yeah, I use one word and Im pretentious, Cause no one is ever fake. No one ever says they like something when they dont. I am not making any difference between two people who liked a game to different degrees while still liking it. I am saying a real fan is someone who liked it, despite some flaws they may find, compaired to someone who just does not like the game at all, but still feels the game should change for them. I hate sport games, because its about sports and its boring to me. Id rather be killing ogres and getting treasure. Instead of saying Madden should add more ogres, I just go play something with ogres. (Though...there is a football game with a fantasy setting I just remebered as I type this)

The use of the phrase is pretentious as it assumes a One True Scotsman Fallacy, ie, if I don't agree with you, I am not a true fan. I liked Origins despite its flaw and enjoyed 2 despite its flaws. Making an insinuation that I am lying to myself is pretentious. Saying that I am not a real fan because I don't agree with you is pretentious.

Also, Ogres and Football have nothing to do with this argument, that is a strawman fallacy.

Simply put, if they like the game, they are a fan. If they do not, they aren't. No "real" needed. I liked a number of the changes, specializations actually feel like you are doing something more than four new skills. I like the changes in combat though I will be a putz and say that I miss cheating in battles like you could in Origins, IE casting spells into rooms before you open the door. I like how my family's appearance changed based on how I shaped my Hawke.

My only real complaint is the map repetition and the fact that I have 120 hours spread over three characters in post game and no new DLC to run them through. I enjoyed both games and I am a "real" fan. I don't feel they changed anything for nonfans, they made a lot of improvements in character interaction and streamlining. Sure, I would like to tailor my companions but fuck it, I am okay with selling all excess armor too.

So stuck everyone is on that one word. Dont like it, remove it. Then re-read it. Thats my point. The real put in was not something I intentionally put to make a specific "pretentious" point. I typed one extra word in a poor way and now everyone is missing my point. I agree, if you like the game you are a fan, if not, then not. But guess what, sometimes people say they are something they are not. But fine, focus on one badly placed word if you want.

The problem with your point is that you're accusing those who like the changes of lying because they don't share your view. Hell, most of what I can get out of your post is you are pissed that they changed the game because of... People self deluding themselves into thinking they like a game but want it changed into another game. You make it sound like a conspiracy, dude.

Im saying if you dont like the game from the start, then your view matters atleast less than those of people who do like the game. And dont call me dude.

So basically you are making a non-point. Good to know, later slick.

 

[Saelune]

Alright. Im done. You all want to get so stuck up on one stupid word I did not even mean, fine. I apparently am just a stuck up pretentious "it" that hates all who disagree. After the, what, 4th person who cant get beyond the word "real" I find I can no longer deal with arguing with any of you. Its one thing to disagree with me, but another to force a point in my argument thats not even there.

 

[Indecipherable]

Alright. Im done. You all want to get so stuck up on one stupid word I did not even mean, fine. I apparently am just a stuck up pretentious "it" that hates all who disagree. After the, what, 4th person who cant get beyond the word "real" I find I can no longer deal with arguing with any of you. Its one thing to disagree with me, but another to force a point in my argument thats not even there.

You seem to think that because you played the first game then it should entitle your opinion to be of greater weight and you should be catered to in future releases. That is why people are accusing you of being pretentious.