I read long ago that Nintendo wanted to stay with the NES much longer but competition from Sega made that impossible.Ezekiel said:
Why the Nintendo Switch will Fail (and fail hard)
- Thread starter Saelune
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Well here we go.
First off I want to say that I applaud Nintendo. The Switch is a fucking fantastic idea. The ability to pick up and take a console with me is something I've always wanted. Especially every since I got a laptop with an Nvidia GTX 1070 GPU in it that basically plays every game ever on ultra with perfect 75+ fps and comes with a foldable protective cover and a custom case to prevent it from getting dinged or damaged as I travel out. Man it sure would be cool if I could have powerful console gaming on the go.....hmmm...
Sadly here is the deal. The Switch is a fantastic CONCEPT, but nothing more. What it ends up being is a shitty console AND a shitty portable system. There is a big difference between console games and portable games and that is, the ease of start and stop. The 3DS is a fantastically designed system because it's biggest feature is the ability to close the lid and essentially freeze the game right where you left off. Not to mention many portable games are designed to be enjoyed in small sections, where you aren't taken out of the game by constantly having to start and stop while on the go.
Can you imagine getting anywhere in SKyrim if you only get to play for 15 minute chunks at a time? What quest was I doing? Which way was I going? Where did this fucking arrow in my knee come from?
Console games are designed for longer play sessions, which means popping the console around with you disrupts the experience, if it doesn't outright ruin it.
Then there are the obvious technically limitations of this system. The first one being battery life. My gaming laptop can give me a whooping 2.5 hours of playing a serious game on ultra settings. My fucking phone can't handle Pokemon Go for more than an hour or so before the battery starts crying. This thing is basically a tablet, trying to run full console powered games at 720p. Unless they've managed to invent a brand new space-age battery...this thing isn't going to last long on the go. And frankly if the battery power is shit, then it completely defeats the purpose and appeal of being able to take your console around with you.
On did I say 720p? Yeah possibly. Except the games clearly run like shit when it isn't attached to it's console dock (which is rumored to provide the unit more power). Go watch the reveal trailer and pay careful attention to the GAMES. Notice something odd, yeah, that Zelda game is running at sub 30 fps when in handheld mode. Nintendo didn't even bother to photoshop in the game running properly. They aren't even trying to lie about it. It is clear that not only will the battery life suck, but you are going to get a dramatically sub-par playing experience when you take this thing outside.
So not only does it loose the convience of the 3DS, but it is also going to play the games terribly.
Now I know what you guys are saying. "Oh not everyone will notice the frame drops." Nintendo has marketed to the casual market for a long time, and the casual player normally wouldn't notice slight frame dropping. Normally. Except.....If they play the exact same game, and the exact same game gets noticeably worse when you go portable with it....then everyone will notice. You go from a buttery smooth experience on the TV to a stuttery shit show on the handheld, and everyone will notice because they will feel and see the difference based on what they've just been playing.
SO yeah, the Switch is looking very very mediocre in my eyes. A fucking amazing idea, that we simply don't have the technology to pull off this easily yet. Sorry Nintendo.
First off I want to say that I applaud Nintendo. The Switch is a fucking fantastic idea. The ability to pick up and take a console with me is something I've always wanted. Especially every since I got a laptop with an Nvidia GTX 1070 GPU in it that basically plays every game ever on ultra with perfect 75+ fps and comes with a foldable protective cover and a custom case to prevent it from getting dinged or damaged as I travel out. Man it sure would be cool if I could have powerful console gaming on the go.....hmmm...
Sadly here is the deal. The Switch is a fantastic CONCEPT, but nothing more. What it ends up being is a shitty console AND a shitty portable system. There is a big difference between console games and portable games and that is, the ease of start and stop. The 3DS is a fantastically designed system because it's biggest feature is the ability to close the lid and essentially freeze the game right where you left off. Not to mention many portable games are designed to be enjoyed in small sections, where you aren't taken out of the game by constantly having to start and stop while on the go.
Can you imagine getting anywhere in SKyrim if you only get to play for 15 minute chunks at a time? What quest was I doing? Which way was I going? Where did this fucking arrow in my knee come from?
Console games are designed for longer play sessions, which means popping the console around with you disrupts the experience, if it doesn't outright ruin it.
Then there are the obvious technically limitations of this system. The first one being battery life. My gaming laptop can give me a whooping 2.5 hours of playing a serious game on ultra settings. My fucking phone can't handle Pokemon Go for more than an hour or so before the battery starts crying. This thing is basically a tablet, trying to run full console powered games at 720p. Unless they've managed to invent a brand new space-age battery...this thing isn't going to last long on the go. And frankly if the battery power is shit, then it completely defeats the purpose and appeal of being able to take your console around with you.
On did I say 720p? Yeah possibly. Except the games clearly run like shit when it isn't attached to it's console dock (which is rumored to provide the unit more power). Go watch the reveal trailer and pay careful attention to the GAMES. Notice something odd, yeah, that Zelda game is running at sub 30 fps when in handheld mode. Nintendo didn't even bother to photoshop in the game running properly. They aren't even trying to lie about it. It is clear that not only will the battery life suck, but you are going to get a dramatically sub-par playing experience when you take this thing outside.
So not only does it loose the convience of the 3DS, but it is also going to play the games terribly.
Now I know what you guys are saying. "Oh not everyone will notice the frame drops." Nintendo has marketed to the casual market for a long time, and the casual player normally wouldn't notice slight frame dropping. Normally. Except.....If they play the exact same game, and the exact same game gets noticeably worse when you go portable with it....then everyone will notice. You go from a buttery smooth experience on the TV to a stuttery shit show on the handheld, and everyone will notice because they will feel and see the difference based on what they've just been playing.
SO yeah, the Switch is looking very very mediocre in my eyes. A fucking amazing idea, that we simply don't have the technology to pull off this easily yet. Sorry Nintendo.
Additionally, the PSVita may not have done well in the west but the Japanese game market tells a much different story. Allegedly it consistently ranks in the top-3 list when it comes to monthly console sales. The Switch might not do too well in the US but we know Square is making a Dragon Quest on it and we've seen that Splatoon is planed for it so it should do just fine in its home territory if nowhere else.Saelune said:
Personally, I can't wait to pick up the Switch. I got the Wii U on day one and I still like playing with it but The Switch has to break the pattern the Wii U and 3DS started (ie: awful year 1). The amount of support it seems to be getting is absolutely promising but EA cut ties with Nintendo before the Wii U was on the shelves for 90 days. Ubisoft did more or less the same thing and Nintendo can't really take that kind of hit again if they want to be successful in the west.
Most of my statements have nothing to do with specs. My biggest statement is more about the nature of console gaming versus mobile gaming. They don't equate to each other very well.CaitSeith said:
As far as the actually spec stuff. Laura Dale has been reporting sourced information on her twitter and the letsplayvideogames.com website where her information is saying things like 2.5 hour battery-life, 720p downrezzed gaming on the handheld. Nvidia has also confirmed that the console has a Tegra Gpu in it.
Even if it is all just speculation. I don't trust a 300-400 dollar piece of hardware to be all that impressive in what it is trying to do.
People are spending more time on public transportation and working longer hours. The NS could work on that basis alone. Providing an upscaled game at home, and a rather downscaled portable experience on those hour long commutes by bus or train. The primary problem may be the lack of a proper launch-early support cycle. Remastered Skyrim? Okay ... Breath of the Wild? Kind of like the whole Twilight Princess GC/Wii dual release. Splatoon? Okay. The trailer didn't show anything I can't get on the WiiU, and they have about 6 months left. Sure, if they did a Xenoblade Chronicles X remastered I may buy it because I love that game, I want to support that game more, and it would be a brilliant, longevity heavy console release that would be the perfect way to unwind on a train or plane trip.
We really do need a new, dedicated Zelda game ... but the likelihood of that within a year of the console released is between none and buckleys ...
But the console specs themselves are solid. They can be competitive with current consoles, and Nintendo is perhaps the last console maker who actually wants to make dedicated gaming console experiences. The fad of a console being a toned down PC with a few exclusives really isn't going to gel well with people the further we go from here.
The NS makes sense. It's a sensible option for consoles to go in. As it helps to create a niche which all gamers want to see properly fulfilled.
The NS caters to audiences which other consoles do not, and neither do PCs. Cheap gaming on the fly with comparative power. There is benefits to this niche Ninty are going with. People who won't have the money to fork out $2000 on a gaming laptop, nor a gaming PC, but want portable current gen games that transcend the necessity of being relocated solely to one environment.
I am cautiously optimistic. But the apparent lack of games might be something that turns off a lot of would-be early adopters.
We really do need a new, dedicated Zelda game ... but the likelihood of that within a year of the console released is between none and buckleys ...
But the console specs themselves are solid. They can be competitive with current consoles, and Nintendo is perhaps the last console maker who actually wants to make dedicated gaming console experiences. The fad of a console being a toned down PC with a few exclusives really isn't going to gel well with people the further we go from here.
The NS makes sense. It's a sensible option for consoles to go in. As it helps to create a niche which all gamers want to see properly fulfilled.
The NS caters to audiences which other consoles do not, and neither do PCs. Cheap gaming on the fly with comparative power. There is benefits to this niche Ninty are going with. People who won't have the money to fork out $2000 on a gaming laptop, nor a gaming PC, but want portable current gen games that transcend the necessity of being relocated solely to one environment.
I am cautiously optimistic. But the apparent lack of games might be something that turns off a lot of would-be early adopters.
I donb't get this argument, personally. You can buy a rechargeable portable battery for $30. My last job I made extensive use of portable USB battery rechargers.CritialGaming said:
Nintendo could cheaply release their own that you can just slip into your luggage. Top up a battery on the fly. People complain how their mobiles keep dying, and it's like; "You know ... USB battery recharger ... costs next to nothing ... never have to worry again." Basically the only requirements necessary for one is owning pockets or walking with a bag. Which you're at least going to have one or the other if you walking around with your NS (or your laptop).
If it has the games then what does it matter?votemarvel said:
The main reason the WII U failed is because Nintendo did an abysmal job pushing it early. They didn't want to deter third party games by making them compete with Mario and such. Main problem was that most launch third part launch title games are either ports of existing games or rushed messes. So that wasn't going to get people to buy and then it was a long time before main Nintendo titles came out so no one wanted to buy it early and then it got that reputation, which deterred third party support and then we get the cycle. Also shit marketing.
Assuming they actually put games out themselves to encourage early adoption and then go from there, this should do better.
Most people critical of Nintendo forget Japan exists. I bet there are people in Japan who say everything bad about Xbox that people here say about Nintendo.Shoggoth2588 said:
If Nintendo wants better love here though, they need to put more into their "Western IPs", like Metroid and Starfox, which are neglected cause the US loves them more than Japan does.
Nintendo acknowledged their mistake with the Wii U by saying they didn't communicate properly regarding it. Thing is, they are making the same mistake with Switch. Yeah they released a nice trailer showing what it can do. Here's what it can do; Play games. Big revelation I know.
What they need to tell people is what games have been confirmed (even if it's just launch titles), and maybe system specifications. Lots of people, alright me, love that kind of technical stuff. But it's mostly what games will be available at launch, and if they are aiming for a more adult gaming environment, make games beyond Zelda and Mario related. I know that the trailer showed some random dude playing Skyrim, but both Bethesda and Nintendo have both all but denied the game on Switch. Even if it will have Skyrim, it will at launch be a 4 or 5 year old game by then.
Nintendo needs to tell people what they want to hear, not what they think they want to hear. That was the mistake with the Wii u, and thus far, it looks like they are making the same mistake twice. This is why I think it will fail.
What they need to tell people is what games have been confirmed (even if it's just launch titles), and maybe system specifications. Lots of people, alright me, love that kind of technical stuff. But it's mostly what games will be available at launch, and if they are aiming for a more adult gaming environment, make games beyond Zelda and Mario related. I know that the trailer showed some random dude playing Skyrim, but both Bethesda and Nintendo have both all but denied the game on Switch. Even if it will have Skyrim, it will at launch be a 4 or 5 year old game by then.
Nintendo needs to tell people what they want to hear, not what they think they want to hear. That was the mistake with the Wii u, and thus far, it looks like they are making the same mistake twice. This is why I think it will fail.
"Portable gaming is dead"
*Looks up from 3DS* Hm? You say something? I couldn't hear you over the sound of Shin Megami Tensei.
*Looks up from 3DS* Hm? You say something? I couldn't hear you over the sound of Shin Megami Tensei.
God damn you're right. Honestly, I find it hard to believe MS would be that stupid, but hey, here we are. I also don't keep up to date on MS's press conferences, I just browse the internet and watch TV, where the majority of it has been Xbone S and PS4 Pro.votemarvel said:
That said, the Scorpio is, again, a pretty stupid idea.
For one, they've restricted it to games also needing to run on the Xbone original. You can say you expect a year until an exclusive, but I kind of doubt that because...
They're pushing 4K resolution. That's over 4 times as many pixels to push out as HD resolution, and current gen consoles rarely even achieve that, with many coming in at either 720p, or 900p, rather than full 1080p. Yes, even on the Xbone and PS4. This is going to take up a pretty big portion of the new graphical processing power they're adding to it.
Additionally, they're cannibalising their own sales. Why buy a One S if you will just have to buy a Scorpio a year later anyway? Especially when it offers so little.
Outside that, MS are putting themselves in a pretty poor position with third party developers for this. They now have 3 versions of the Xbox One for Developers to develop for, the games must be compatible with ALL versions of the Xbox One, and the Scorpio, assuming it has a bunch more power that can actually be used, stands on its own as a solitary thing. Again, look at PC gaming; More power, but its only one of 4 platforms, so it doesn't get the attention and love it deserves a lot of the time, especially from 'AAA' developers.
If you were a dev, which would you develop primarily for:
This gen: Xbox One, PS4, potentially Switch, and the PS4 Pro/Xbone S
Next gen: Scorpio
Primary development is going to go to this gen, as it has the largest user base, across 3 consoles. You'll then just have the game render at 4K for the Scorpio, and enable HDR for the One S and PS4 Pro, and you're done. Much like with PC, devs develop for consoles first, then enable a few different graphical settings and call it a day.
Basically, if Microsoft are doing as you say, and releasing the Scorpio as a true next gen console... They've made a bad move. Too early, they're releasing too many other products at the same time, and their competitors aren't following - meaning they've got the industry at large working against them. MAYBE it'll sell well enough to be worth it, but less than 4 years after the previous generation of consoles... I don't see consumers just jumping onto it either, especially seeing as consoles have always been the, quote-unquote, "Cheaper" option for people, not having to upgrade every couple of years, as one of their main appeals. Especially when MS has said it'll come with premium pricing.
More likely, the Scorpio is just yet another Xbox One, this time with enough power to render in 4K natively, and to run VR properly, and that's all it'll do differently. It'll be targeted as a niche product for the few consumers who actually have these luxuries, and games will be made to run on the Xbox One in order to ensure enough sales for those games to justify their production costs.
Its still a stupid move, but at least not one that pits the rest of the industry against you for now.
Honestly at this rate I'm starting to not see consoles lasting a lot longer in general. This is getting more and more PC-esque, and that's something console gamers have always said they play console to avoid. As the two start to meet more and more in the middle, I'm seeing more and more people jumping ship. Consoles need to start playing to their strengths again, rather than just imitating PCs and doing a pretty shit job of it.
Yeah sure you could probably do that, assuming the Switch doesn't have some weirdo connector port. But keep in mind that the casual console market (whom Nintendo has basically been marketed towards since forever) wont know to do that. You have to remember "ease of use" when looking at a console system. Ps4 and Xbox have already failed in this aspect and Xbox has promised to fix that shit with their next console.Addendum_Forthcoming said:
Despite the reveal trailer being geared towards "gamers", there are countless parents out there who are just going to buy their kids another Nintendo system. They wont know about battery life, external batteries, extra gadgets or controller add-ons. I'm trying to look at things in two ways here.
Like I said, the Switch is a kick ass idea. But I don't see how it can hold up to any practical use.
Oh here is another question, do the controllers charge by being attached to the tablet? If so, how will that hurt the battery life of the tablet while you are on the go?
I wouldn't worry too much about the Scorpio being anything amazing. For all the hype of 4K gaming, I highly doubt that they will be able to do it in a console. Chances are they will use rendering tricks to upscale the display to 4K, but wont actually be 4k. Look at it this way, current consoles cannot run 1080p games at 60fps. Or at least very very few titles. Because the systems just aren't powerful enough. But to make matters even more shady, high end top of the line 5000 dollar gaming PC's CANNOT run games at a full 4K resolution with steady fps. This is not only because the hardware isn't quite there yet, but also because the engines running the games can't handle that shit yet. I have a GTX 1070 and Civ 6 chugs from time to time, not because of my gpu, but because of the game itself.Joccaren said:
If 5000 dollar machines in 2016 can't keep up true 4K gaming, Microsoft is feeding us bullshit that a 400-500 dollar console will handle 4k? Get the fuck out of here with that nonsense. It aint gonna happen.
Well, they don't need to run at 60FPS on consoles, 30FPS is seen as pretty standard there so already that's half the processing power required - making it far more doable. The Scorpio is also supposedly "6 Times as powerful as the Xbone" or something like that. Calling exaggeration and bullshit there, but I would accept that its substantially more powerful, but from what they've said it'll all be dedicated to pushing 4K gaming - which isn't the best use of that power, but hey, you do you MS.CritialGaming said:
As for PC gaming not managing it... my 4K display would beg to differ. Naturally, yes, it depends on the game. Civ has always been pretty poorly optimised in my experience. I remember 5 running like an absolute ***** when I first got it at 1080p, despite having just upgraded all my hardware, so not sure its the best example of the game. Stellaris for me has been completely fine, as have several games from a good 8 years back, Cities XL, Offworld Trading Company, Factario, Pillars of Eternity, Shogun II Total War, Attila Total War, Deus Ex: HR and honestly most games I've played - and this is with an additional 1080p screen rendering my internet off to the side. It does really depend on the game though, and there are definitely some that chug along rather than run smoothly. I'm also on a 4Gb 970 GTX. From some reading online, 1000 series cards have actually been suffering some worse performance than 900 series recently, thanks to drivers being newer and thus less... polished? than the 900 series, though that was a couple months ago and I'd hope its improved a bit since then. Probably also the case with Civ TBH, needs the next run of drivers for optimal performance.
But yeah, the Scorpio ain't going to be some amazing, new, revolutionary thing. Its the wrong time and market for it, and I don't think the industry would be too keen to pick up another platform, and waste development money on a fragmented userbase because of it.
But here's the thing. Comparing a PC Gaming rig to a console is nowhere close to a one-to-one thing. A PC rig costs thousands of dollars. A console costs a few hundred. And I just don't see them being able to put that kind of power into a console system unless they are willing to take incredible losses in revenue on a gamble like that. Extremely unlikely.Joccaren said:
008Zulu said:
they did that with Wii U and guess what happened? Nintendo had issues and had to delay titles like Pikmin 3 and 3rd Parties delayed or even flat out cancelled their games as well.
and what was the result of all that? that's right. the public was massively pissed off With Nintendo and all the usual doom and gloom bullshit started and people refused to to buy a Wii U because for the first 8 or 9 months or so of it's life. there was literally one title worth buying, New Super Mario Bros U. and that was it. people were already confused enough about whether the Wii U was actually a new console or not, and New Super Bros U being the only thing on it only confused people further because they just thought it was simply a HD version of their previous NSMB game on Wii.
in other words, simply telling us what exactly the console is and what it does now, and THEN telling us about the launch games much closer to launch is much MUCH safer than announcing a bunch of launch titles early and then potentially pissing everyone off if things don't end up working out as expected with those titles.
Somewhat debatable there, but yeah.CritialGaming said:
If I were to build my rig new now, I wouldn't be spending much over $1000 for a set of parts that would run things as well as I do now at 4K. If I just wanted to run things at console quality 4K, I'd be a reasonable amount under.
Consoles in theory are also able to get more juice out of their hardware without the bulky OS and bloatware holding things down. God knows I'm running at 8Gb out of 12 in RAM when just idling on my PC these days, so I don't find that too hard to believe. A console can be less powerful than my PC and run 4K fine, and my PC ain't that expensive.
There is also to consider that MS has stated it'll be going with a premium pricing strategy for it. That's likely to, IMO, mean ~$600 for the console. While still under what I'd expect, its not outlandishly out of range, especially seeing as the Xbone is ~$400 and all its likely to be receiving is a bit of extra RAM [Dirt cheap] and a new graphics card. If they wisely choose their graphics card to be a cheap one with lots of VRAM and a good bus size, they can skimp out on Ultra-level graphics, and instead opt for better textures and higher resolutions without the expensive hardware needed for all the shader boosts too.
Basically, I'm not expecting a 4K Scorpio game to look near as good as a 4K PC game, it'll just render it natively in 4K without all the full bells and whistles, and MS is going to be pricing it higher than their other offerings, so I'm not seeing it as utterly impossible. I just think it'll be a disappointment for all involved who are expecting miracles out of a few hundred dollar box. Its not going to be a PC quality experience on a console, its going to be a little gimmick that sounds impressive but doesn't really change much. They can feasibly pull off that gimmick, but expecting much beyond that is wishful thinking.