Why the Skyrim boycott is a waste of time and missing enjoyment.

[stiver]

You're right! Don't boycott the company that is doing something wrong.

Don't have morals. Don't stand up for something you believe in. Just keep living your life, and Ignore the world around you so you can play a stupid game slightly sooner than if you actually had a backbone and stood up to what you believe in.

 

[Treblaine]

If we refuse to give them money for their (broken) products, they will try and improve things for us...

If only that was how corporations operated. 95% of them, when faced with declining profits, will just cut corners even more aggressively. I think you can look back at the number of corporations who said "We're losing money, we'd better put out a better product!" on the fingers of one badly maimed hand.

And the 5% who don't, like IBM and Nintendo, they SURVIVE and THRIVE.

The 95% who cut corners do so out of delusion or mainly to buy them time to stitch their golden parachute. Unless they are lucky the company ends up crippled, broken up or bankrupt.

 

[Treblaine]

there's a skyrim boycott? huh, imagine that.

now i am informed about this!

^why this thread is stupid.

That's the OP's straw-man argument, there is no major boycott. Even Notch is opposing a boycott and WILL be buying Skyrim.

The thing is it's an effective ad hominem attack to make out those who oppose the Zenimax lawsuit as feckless hypocrites, rather than addressing the actual weight or the argument itself.

well, that too. but my point was, if you oppose an action of any kind, don't give it more publicity. don't reinforce the bad behavior with attention.

I don't think Zenimax's lawyers are benefiting from all this negative publicity.

To spite all the contrarian "intellectual property laws = morality" arguments, this is benefiting Zenimax's competition more than it is serving their cause.

 

[Jimbo1212]

It's not dodgy or stupid. How can you be so arrogant to simply repeat your assertion without further expansion or explanation? Are you so pomp's to think that I should just naturally accept your idea simply because it is your opinion. Do NOT confuse liberal ideas that people have the right to share their ideas with the oppressive idea of forced acceptance of opinion of others.

Scrolls are inherently a part of the mythos of the swords and sorcery genre, that pre-dates TES by decades, even pre-dates even Tolkien.

They are not using "part of the name" unreasonably. Call of Juarez uses "part of the name" of Call of Duty, but even Activision aren't low enough to sue over something like that! Probably because such a claim is UTTERLY TRIVIAL and the CoJ developers have the clout to have it kicked out of court.

And as much money as Notch has earned, it is not as much as Zenimax, he could very easily spend a quarter of all his revenue fighting an international legal dispute at massive cost.

"No investor would let Zenimax get away with not suing him."

You KNOW full damn well that that utterly flies in the face of facts. Look across the game shelves, look at how many titles use words from other titles. Here, a compendium:

Metal GEAR Solid and GEARS of War or vs "Guilty GEAR"

Condemned Criminal ORIGINS and
Dragon Age ORIGINS?

Mass EFFECT and
Fear EFFECT?

CALL OF Duty
CALL OF Cthullu: Dark Corners of The Earth
CALL OF Juarez

Infinite Space
Dead Space
Dead Rising
Advent Rising

COD: BLACK Ops
BLACK (2006 game)

MOTORstorm
Forza MOTORsport

Fallout New VEGAS
Rainbow Six VEGAS

RED faction
RED dead redemption

"God OF WAR" vs "Gears OF WAR" vs "men OF WAR"

"DEAD rising" vs "DEAD island" vs "Dawn of the DEAD" vs "Left 4 DEAD" (all zombie games with "dead" in the title) plus

"Team FORTRESS 2" vs "Dwarf FORTRESS"

"Hitman: Silent ASSASSIN" vs "ASSASSIN's Creed"

Zenimax's central argument - that there is the possibility of brand confusion - is 100% bullshit. It should be obvious from first glance - and is undeniable with through examination - that all of the promotional material of TES 5 has called it "SKYRIM!" The media pundits have constantly called it just "Skyrim" and if they ever mention the word "scrolls" then is in the whole name "The Elder Scrolls V: SKYRIM".

And as the case of "EDGE" vs " Tim Langdell of EDGE Games" has established you cannot trademark a single commonly used English word. It is not right, and it is NOT LEGAL. And Zenimax's trademark isn't even of a single word, but of a collection of THREE words:

The
Elder
Scrolls

That is the limit of their trademark. Notch has NOT infringed on ANYTHING!!!!

You totally missed the point and your examples show this.

Firstly, many games sharing names are not of the same genre so why would the devs care? They simply would not.
Also, many games share very common words for that genre eg Motor in a car game - nothing original and makes sense.
Or, the games are of common phrases eg. God of War, Gears of War etc. The games are all based on well known titles/names/phrases.

However, scrolls in an rpg title?
Why?
What a random word to choose. It is specific enough to warrant investigation because WHY out of EVERY word in the world has he chosen "scrolls" as well for a rpg game? There is also a genuine case for brand confusion - two rpgs with "scroll" in the title. Anyone who was not sure would easily get confused.

You're right! Don't boycott the company that is doing something wrong.

Don't have morals. Don't stand up for something you believe in. Just keep living your life, and Ignore the world around you so you can play a stupid game slightly sooner than if you actually had a backbone and stood up to what you believe in.

You are aware that someone could argue to boycott MineCraft and all of Notchs games on the idea of not being original? You could say that MC is a ripped engine and a copied concept, and that Scrolls is a blatant rip of one of the largest rpgs franchises.
I just think too many people are jumping on the MC fanwagon because they feel some weird need to support some overweight guy who has charged people for a beta.

 

[Treblaine]

You totally missed the point and your examples show this.

Firstly, many games sharing names are not of the same genre so why would the devs care? They simply would not.
Also, many games share very common words for that genre eg Motor in a car game - nothing original and makes sense.
Or, the games are of common phrases eg. God of War, Gears of War etc. The games are all based on well known titles/names/phrases.

However, scrolls in an rpg title?
Why?
What a random word to choose. It is specific enough to warrant investigation because WHY out of EVERY word in the world has he chosen "scrolls" as well for a rpg game? There is also a genuine case for brand confusion - two rpgs with "scroll" in the title. Anyone who was not sure would easily get confused.

Scrolls is NOT an RPG, it is chiefly a card game where a main element is - quite literally - scrolls. And scrolls are already an established trope of the fantasy genre, while something like the word "skyrim" is not, it is very unique and distinct.

"Anyone who was not sure would easily get confused."

People don't buy games who are "not sure". You might blow $3 on a KFC rip off, but not $60 on a major game! Who is honestly that dumb and has money to spend, really?

 

[Broken Blade]

In my case, the boycott is a waste of time because I was never going to play Skyrim anyway. So, no loss to me.

 

[Jimbo1212]

You totally missed the point and your examples show this.

Firstly, many games sharing names are not of the same genre so why would the devs care? They simply would not.
Also, many games share very common words for that genre eg Motor in a car game - nothing original and makes sense.
Or, the games are of common phrases eg. God of War, Gears of War etc. The games are all based on well known titles/names/phrases.

However, scrolls in an rpg title?
Why?
What a random word to choose. It is specific enough to warrant investigation because WHY out of EVERY word in the world has he chosen "scrolls" as well for a rpg game? There is also a genuine case for brand confusion - two rpgs with "scroll" in the title. Anyone who was not sure would easily get confused.

Scrolls is NOT an RPG, it is chiefly a card game where a main element is - quite literally - scrolls. And scrolls are already an established trope of the fantasy genre, while something like the word "skyrim" is not, it is very unique and distinct.

"Anyone who was not sure would easily get confused."

People don't buy games who are "not sure". You might blow $3 on a KFC rip off, but not $60 on a major game! Who is honestly that dumb and has money to spend, really?

What do you mean by "chiefly a card game"? Is it a card game or a computer game?
And again, scrolls do not have to be in fantasy, nor in the title. It is not as fundamental as car engines in a car racing game.
Also, do you have research to back up your last comment? With how the gaming market is developing, devs want to push this new gamer to make their first $60 buy and as seen recently with people buying broken games (due to pre-orders), many people are stupid enough to blow $60 on something they have no idea about.

 

[Treblaine]

Please stop calling my clever observations stupid. It makes you look stupid.

"he never told the whole truth about the application."

He did not withhold any critical detail.

And whose fault is THAT? That Zenimax isn't giving their side? Notch can't force them to tell their side, why would Notch tell a blatant lie that:
-he offered to drop the trademark claim, and
-zenimax refused that offer

That's bold faced, Zenimax could easilly call him out on that and I thing the reason they haven't is because Notch is telling the truth. It's easy to accuse people of lies without any reason for suspicion. Frankly your approach "we only know what notch tells us, he could be manipulating us" is the thought process of a conspiracy theorists.

Again, your observations were not clever. They had nothing to do with this case. But I won't give you any more minute to try and explain the problem

Zenimax wanted to protect their franchise after Mojang tried to register the trademark "Scrolls". If you would take 2 minutes to inform yourself about the wide application of this trademark you would understand this. What got we from Notch? "Durr, Bethesda send a letter regarding our game!!111". So people who don't want to inform themselfes start to blurr out it is because of confusion "Scrolls" and "The Elder Scrolls".

But it was not about this. So he stayed on his idiotic way to mislead his fans into believing this was a "black and white" case. Yes, I am accusing this guy from holding valueable informations back to create this BS.

I am also pretty sure he holds more informations back. To be precise: Every information which could show that Bethesda is not the only dick in this. Like he did the entire time.

And I may conclude: Your comparisons are still pretty stupid. Even if it had something to do with it. All your examples share a word but not all of those words alone is a trademark.

Especially since none of those went public if they were any lawsuits according the name (CoD and Black).

What part of "Mojang offered to drop the trademark claim" to you not understand? Or do you simply refuse to acknowledge it?

He withheld nothing. Show us what he had withheld (that was later revealed) that is so critical?

You can't call him a liar simply because he has a different conclusion from you. It is quite reasonable to conclude this is as simple as Notch claims it is, we can only work with the facts and principals available to us.

You can't assume there is evidence that Zenimax is acting honourably just because Notch might be covering it up, even though Zenimax could release any favourable detail at any time they like.

You haven't even come close to explaining how my comparisons are stupid. You also contradict yourself:

All your examples share a word but not all of those words alone is a trademark.

So you agree with Notch now? He says that the word "scrolls" alone is not covered by trademark as he'd reasonably conclude considering games like "Black" (FPS game from 2006) and Black Ops (FPS games from 2010) went without lawsuit. You can't have a secret lawsuit, not a discrete one between major publishers without the press finding out.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

You mean besides the fact that you'll never EVER get enough gamers to actually put their money where their mouth is to make a significant impact? Most talk a good game, but when push comes to shove, don't have the will power to resist buying the game they're supposed to be boycotting. Case in point: Modern Warfare 2 boycott.

 

[mike1921]

I have a question, why the fuck is this? I hear this constantly and it's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. The patent owner should be able to let anyone they want slide for infringements of THEIR intellectual property. Why is it not a patent owner's right to let crimes that supposedly are against them slide?

What patent are we talking about? What technology was apparently patented? We're discussing copyright.
Unlike patent filing, copyright is free; any picture, story or artistic work you complete is protected by copyright law automatically. This encompassing protection has its draw backs; if you don't protect what's yours, you forfeit the right to claim it as your own.

It's bullshit that would apply to copyright where what is theft of what's yours is almost always in the grey if not black area.

If Zenimax wave their hand and decide not to pursue this case, they forfeit their claim to not only this case, but any case involving the word 'Scrolls' in the future - this can and will have drastic repercussions from unscrupulous companies who make those annoying Banner games like "World of LordCraft".

Which is why it's bullshit that your copyrights aren't yours that you can protect from whoever they want. If a wallet's my property and someone steals $5 from it but I know them so I don't call the cops I am not forfeiting my right to my wallet nor am I forfeiting my right for any other $5 bill or even the same one if I get it back. If blizzard wants to sue world of lordcraft and not world of lorecraft that should be their decision. Maybe there should be something like a patent for intellectual property to state "this is not public domain and we are going out of our way to say this" instead of having a legal system where absolutely fucking retarded lawsuits about nothing that a single person is worried about are almost mandatory.

The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim and just Scrolls are as similar as the name would be to a game just called "The".

You're showing your cards here. 'The Elder Scrolls' is a three word copyrighed term referring a series of specific video games of the RPG Genre. Notch is making an RPG called 'Scrolls'. If his game were a Cell Shaded FPS, the case would have no merit. Context: it's everything.

Dude, the word they're using is relevant too. Notice all strategy games with the word "empire" in them? Think of scrolls, what connects in your mind besides egypt? Magic, and in what videogame genre do you always find magic almost without fail? RPGs. I say scrolls is a generic enough word close enough to RPGs where you should need at least a similar naming structure

I hear EA is making another game - you better run along and get that boycott bandwagon rolling. Who cares what it's about - the world must know of your outrage!
*rolls eyes*

The only publisher that I mad a conscious decision to not buy from is ubisoft and even then I wouldn't have made any decision like that if they had any games that I want anywhere near as much as elder scrolls

I care what anything I'm outraged over is about. The idea that in a court of law a suit over this shit is actually something that happens and doesn't get laughed at

 

[Treblaine]

So he did not only give out those information which would let someone believe that Bethesda has no reason to go against them? He explained that they try to trademark "Scrolls" and he also listed all the applications for this trademark? Yes, this were quite vital information to understand why Bethesda started this whole thing.

That makes no sense.

Those are all things that happened AFTER Zenimax threatened to sue. It doesn't justify Zenimax suing.

And shut up with this "Mojang offered to drop the trademark". It is getting old after 11 pages. Again, we only get one side to hear and this side did they best to let them look like the "little guy who is picked on without any reason". There was a reason, a big one.

it's not "one side of the story" it is a FACT! It is one that is objective and irrelevant, the "different sides" only reveal different facts.

If Zenimax has some facts of the matter to give that will defend themselves then why have they not made them public? Possibly because they have nothing good to say about themselves and Notch has been right on every point.

I say he is a liar because he withheld all the facts that were needed to understand why this case started. Based on that I don't believe that he is telling the whole story why Bethesda is going to court after they offered to dropt the trademark and rename the game ("rename").

Little Edit: I'm in germany and its late, going to sleep and we can continue to argue sometimes later.

Only Zenimax know WHY they are resorting to this, did you ever stop to consider that THE ZENIMAX LEGAL TEAM HAVE NOT EXPLAINED THEIR ENTIRE STRATEGY TO THEIR OPPOSITION!!!!?!? Maybe Notch genuinely has no clue why Zenimax would file such an outrageously frivolous claim.

You accuse him of being a liar for not disclosing something which you have NO REASON TO ASSUME HE WOULD KNOW! Why should Notch have to explain the motives of Zenimax? They are the instigators of this lawsuit!

I have an idea: These lawyers are hard nuts who never take less than everything they possibly can, they WILL be unreasonable if the law allows it. And it is in their favour to drag Mojang through the courts costing their (perceived) competition a lot of money and delaying production of their game.

 

[Vetinarii]

Yes. I realized which part of the post you were answering to now, nice lack of editing. Anyway, I answered above.

As did I, either way stop being so rude, I know you think it makes you look awesome or smart or a bad ass or whatever your aiming for but honestly It just makes you look juvenile.

Just so you know, I am not boycotting Skyrim but I still respect those that are because I respect people who take a stand against an increasingly greedy and abusive industry. I don't respect people who try to guilt trip others into buying something.

You know that Notch has tried to copyright the name Scrolls making it illegal for Elder Scrolls to exist any more right? Notch is the one being the arsehole if anyone is (and I don't think he is).

Everyone should probably read this: http://kotaku.com/5846111/mojang-v-bethesda-or-i-hate-it-when-mommy-and-daddy-fight

 

[Dr. wonderful]

You mean besides the fact that you'll never EVER get enough gamers to actually put their money where their mouth is to make a significant impact? Most talk a good game, but when push comes to shove, don't have the will power to resist buying the game they're supposed to be boycotting. Case in point: Modern Warfare 2 boycott.

The Dragon have spoken well.

ALL HAIL THE DRAGON LORD

 

[Kushan101]

I've never heard of Mojang or Notch, nor do I have any intention of finding out. Can't he just change the name from "scrolls" to something else? is this that huge a deal? if "Left for Dead" was changed to "Dead to Rights" it would still be the same game and, ultimately, nobody would give a shit. Call it "Papyrus" or something.

Ok, that name comparison was kinda too clever to have come from me, I can only think I've heard it somewhere before...

I will be buying Skyrim, the special edition exceptionally expensive one at that

 

[Zeh Don]

Copyright does not automatically give you the total right to any commercial usage of those words within the English language..If you can't see the difference between your own hyperbolic examples and simply the word "Scrolls", then I worry for you(you must be educated in law).

...Names, titles, short phrases and colours are not generally considered unique or substantial enough to be covered, but a creation, such as a logo, that combines these elements may be.
In short, work that expresses an idea may be protected, but not the idea behind it."

Congratulations on failing to grasp the concepts at play and quoting out-of-context components. Zenimax aren't arguing Copyright over the word 'Scrolls', they're arguing that the name 'Scolls' can and will be confused their their copyright 'The Elder Scrolls' because they're both PC RPGs of a similar nature.
While I'm sitting in the corner, perhap you can take the time to re-read my post and highlight the part where I wrote "Context: it's everything".

So explain Metal Gear Solid and Gears of War?

Condemned Criminal Origins and
Dragon Age Origins?

Mass Effect and
Fear Effect?

Call of Duty
Call of Cthullu: Dark Corners of The Earth
Call of Juarez
Infinite Space
Dead Space
Dead Rising
Advent Rising

COD: Black Ops
BLACK (2006 game)

MOTORstorm
Forza MOTORsport

Fallout New Vegas
Rainbow Six Vegas

RED faction
RED dead redemption

Are you mentally handicapped? This isn't being mean, or even attemping to be funny, this is a serious question. Are you mentally handicapped?
The idea at play here is that a PC RPG called "Scrolls" can be confused with a PC RPG called "The Elder Scrolls" due to the similiar name/nature/genre of the games.
Anyone confusing 'Metal Gear Solid' for 'Gears of War' should be wearing a padded helmet when they go for a walk.

What nonsense. Those clearly mean the exact same thing. Scrolls is clearly distinct. Or at least as distinct as Rage is from all the other games with "rage" in their title.

Clearly not, since it's going to court. As I said, it's all about context. As you can't understand that, refrain from posting.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

You mean besides the fact that you'll never EVER get enough gamers to actually put their money where their mouth is to make a significant impact? Most talk a good game, but when push comes to shove, don't have the will power to resist buying the game they're supposed to be boycotting. Case in point: Modern Warfare 2 boycott.

The Dragon have spoken well.

ALL HAIL THE DRAGON LORD

Yes, bow before me puny mortals!!

...

Anyway now that I've had my fun, I'd like to say that I think lawsuits like these are derived by the legal departments of these companies for the sole purpose of justifying their existence. I bet they pick their targets by throwing darts at a wall and contrive a reason for it later.

 

[stefman]

i fully agree. who cares if they want the scrolls name to themselves? why are people getting involved? the outcome wont really change the way business works so just stop freaking out over it and buy skyrim new to support a great dev and a great series.