Why wasn't Bioshock our Watchman?

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tlozoot

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Binerexis said:
Chibz said:
It wasn't "Our Watchmen" because it was an overwhelmingly mediocre game with a mildly intriguing setting. The only thing that stood out to me was how underwhelming it was.
Yep, I have to agree; Bioshock really wasn't anything new or interesting to shout and scream about. System Shock, anyone?
Unique setting
Deconstruction of linear narrative
Intertwined critique of objectivist philosophy
Atmosphere thick enough to spread on my morning toast
Narrative told through interaction and participation.

From a purely playable perspective it was simply a coherent and functional shooter, but the above points are more than enough to make Bioshock a very, very good game.
 

CrashBang

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Superior Mind said:
Watchmen was an experiment by Alan Moore who wanted to prove that comics as an artform could achieve what other mediums could not. It wasn't solely to gain respect for comics or anything, if it was he probably wouldn't have chosen a superhero story. Even though Zack Snyder made a passable film version Moore did prove his point... because it's not a hard point to proove. Moore's got a massive ego and like many artists thinks his chosen medium is superior to all others. Games have been proving that they can achieve what no other medium can since pong - it's interactive media.

As to why BioShock isn't considered some great thing that finally exonerates gaming... well because although it was artistically stylish and had a fairly solid narrative it wasn't unparalleled by any means. The twists were well done but not particularly brilliant, the gameplay was pretty samey and despite some memorable sequences it also made a number of poor choices, draggging out the game in the final sequence making many gamers, myself included, just wanting to get to the bloody finish - which was pretty unsatisfying to be honest.
This may be the single greatest post I've ever read on The Escapist. Thank you, you said what I was going to say but in better words than I could. Don't get me wrong, Bioshock is one of my favourite games of this generation because it is beautiful, has interesting gameplay elements, top-notch voice acting, an intriguing setting and storytelling mechanics and I enjoyed it from start to finish (although the good and bad end sequences were both hugely disappointing)
It is certainly not the Watchmen of the videogame world, not in the sense of it's artistic integrity nor it's critical success
Damn, I really fancy reading Watchmen now
 

4173

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Because it's so much easier to start reading comics book. They certainly aren't the same as books, but a person can transfer many of the skills learned from reading books.

Video games (especially something like Bioshock) demand much more as far as physical interfacing (flipping a page is easier than using a controller). A person can take as long as they like to read each panel, but games have a time limit.

In short, once you've convinced a newbie to try either comics or video games, they are more likely to be able to finish the comic. They may not get the full experience of a comic book fan, but they won't be bogged down by minutia either. If someone told me I needed to learn a new language in order to try reading comics (no guarantee I would even like them), I would politely refuse.


Maybe not even politely.
 

JUMBO PALACE

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gigastrike said:
I think that this could be proven by saying that Watchmen only became popular after it was turned into a movie (a more accepted form of media).
I don't think he's talking about the movie. I was laboring under the impression that the OP was referring to the comic book Watchmen finally opening the eyes of the public to the strengths and merits of comics.

As for Bioshock, while it might have been artistically brilliant, and a much needed breadth of fresh air, it wasn't accessible to the majority of people who still need to be convinced that games are art. For one, it's rated M, which immediately limits the market, and it's a completely modern and complex game, which makes it too difficult for the skeptics and older folks to pick it up and play it. It was critically and publicly lauded within the gaming community, but it never broke out of it.
 

mitchell271

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Necromancer Jim said:
A more important question: How does it fucking matter to us whether or not people see gaming as an art form?
because if it isn't soon, the Supreme Court of America will censor the hell out of games an turn them into glorified children's toys and then everyone who has ever touched a game will be ridiculed
 

DudeistBelieve

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Freechoice said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
yoshiru said:
Hahahaha. Bioshock isn't our watchmen because comics had been around a whole lot longer than video games.

And also because you can read watchmen in what, less than a day? Whereas video games consume a whole lot of your time that you could spend doing something more fun. Bioshock was incredibly interesting but it didn't teach me anything important,
It exposed me to Objectivism and Ayn Rand. I probably wouldn't of gone ahead and learned about those two things otherwise.
And you would have been the better person for it.

Bioshock, what have you done?
Yeah clearly there is nothing an English major can learn from reading her fiction... Oh Wait <.<

*Rolls Eyes* Ayn Rand doesn't say you shouldn't be selfless, but that you should only be selfless if thats the option thats going to make you truly happy. That's how a Randian Utopia would work anyway.
 

Freechoice

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SaneAmongInsane said:
Freechoice said:
SaneAmongInsane said:
yoshiru said:
Hahahaha. Bioshock isn't our watchmen because comics had been around a whole lot longer than video games.

And also because you can read watchmen in what, less than a day? Whereas video games consume a whole lot of your time that you could spend doing something more fun. Bioshock was incredibly interesting but it didn't teach me anything important,
It exposed me to Objectivism and Ayn Rand. I probably wouldn't of gone ahead and learned about those two things otherwise.
And you would have been the better person for it.

Bioshock, what have you done?
Yeah clearly there is nothing an English major can learn from reading her fiction... Oh Wait <.<

*Rolls Eyes* Ayn Rand doesn't say you shouldn't be selfless, but that you should only be selfless if thats the option thats going to make you truly happy. That's how a Randian Utopia would work anyway.
Dude, Rapture was a mess even before Jack arrived.
 

Binerexis

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tlozoot said:
Binerexis said:
Chibz said:
It wasn't "Our Watchmen" because it was an overwhelmingly mediocre game with a mildly intriguing setting. The only thing that stood out to me was how underwhelming it was.
Yep, I have to agree; Bioshock really wasn't anything new or interesting to shout and scream about. System Shock, anyone?
Unique setting
Deconstruction of linear narrative
Intertwined critique of objectivist philosophy
Atmosphere thick enough to spread on my morning toast
Narrative told through interaction and participation.

From a purely playable perspective it was simply a coherent and functional shooter, but the above points are more than enough to make Bioshock a very, very good game.
I'll give you that not many games happen in a failed utopia under the sea, Bioshock certainly has that. It doesn't, however, make it a good game; it's just set somewhere out of the norm.

Deconstruction of linear narrative? Really? All that game involved was constantly going from A to B via C and it never really tried to disguise that fact. Ooops, the roof collapsed. Uh oh, looks like you need a certain plasmid to get through here. The way it was pulling that off made me very aware that it was a game if that makes any sense.

I personally found the atmosphere to be lacklustre. I didn't really feel as if I was there or as if Rapture was a real place whereas the atmosphere in other games and a number of films have been able to accomplish that quite well. I'll give you that it was a little creepy but that was mostly due to things randomly jumping out at me which I hate.

A narrative told through interaction and participation is something that happens in EVERY game. If I were to stop interacting or participating in, let's say, Mass Effect then the story would narrative would stop. Why? Because I've turned the game off. Like I said before, the narrative in Bioshock felt very scripted and made me very aware that I was in a game. It was a game that was playable but it's nowhere near this godly game status that people keep saying it is.
 

tlozoot

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Binerexis said:
Deconstruction of linear narrative? Really? All that game involved was constantly going from A to B via C and it never really tried to disguise that fact. Ooops, the roof collapsed. Uh oh, looks like you need a certain plasmid to get through here. The way it was pulling that off made me very aware that it was a game if that makes any sense.
I'm not referring to how your circumvent the obstacles in the game, I mean how the game makes asks you to reflect on the linear nature of gameplay through its story.

Usually in a game you are told that you have freedom. Freedom to move around, freedom to pick a direction, freedom to do what you want in the game world. Allegedly. A well designed game (well...a well designed linear game anyway) doesn't actually give you freedom though - it simply gives you the well-crafted illusion of freedom. You are still being subjected to whatever the designer wants. You're still just a lab-rat running a maze. Most games don't draw attention to the illusion though. Bioshock does. You think you're free to move around Rapture and help Atlus, but you find out in the story that you weren't free at all. You had the illusion of freedom, but in reality Jack (and by extension, the player) were being subconsciously directed. Jack by Atlas, and the player by the designer.

That shit is meta.


Binerexis said:
I personally found the atmosphere to be lacklustre. I didn't really feel as if I was there or as if Rapture was a real place whereas the atmosphere in other games and a number of films have been able to accomplish that quite well. I'll give you that it was a little creepy but that was mostly due to things randomly jumping out at me which I hate.
Then I guess this is mostly subjective then. The art-deco art style, period music and enviromental sounds all made it feel very atmospheric to me. I didn't find it scary though, bar one or two instances in the Medical Pavillion, but I did find it atmospheric.


Binerexis said:
A narrative told through interaction and participation is something that happens in EVERY game. If I were to stop interacting or participating in, let's say, Mass Effect then the story would narrative would stop. Why? Because I've turned the game off. Like I said before, the narrative in Bioshock felt very scripted and made me very aware that I was in a game. It was a game that was playable but it's nowhere near this godly game status that people keep saying it is.
Wrong. Many games simply force-feed you a cut-scene after every level, which is about as passive as watching a film. Bioshock thinks very careful before it wrests control away from the player, and when it does, it makes sense within the story, such as your eventual encounter with Andrew Ryan. Try not to think too literal about my point. Yes, if you stopped playing a game, then you would never get to the end of the story. However, in Bioshock you have to actively engage with the environment to create the story. You only find out the barest bones by listening to whatever is fed into your ear over the comm channels. To find out all about Rapture - its idealogical roots, its creation, golden years, problems, decline and collapse - you have to root around, explore the environment, seek out the audio diaries, and piece together the story yourself. Note that I'd call the rise and fall of Rapture the greater part of the story over the thing with Jack/Atlas/Ryan.

Mass Effect is also, I'd say, a game that requires player interaction to build its story, seeing as its so heavily choice-influenced. The vast majority of games tend to deliver story in the form of blocky, unwieldy, uninteractive cut-scenes though.
 

Deacon Cole

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Not G. Ivingname said:
So, I ask you my fellow Escapists, why wasn't Bioshock our Watchman?
Probably because the story in Watchmen was written to fit the medium of comics itself. Bioshock, as much as i liked the story, do not do the same for games. The story of Bioshock was mostly backstory that was told through the audio diaries and radio messages, not through gameplay. Most of the more compelling events had happened long before you get there and the bodies are already rotted.
 

ShatterPalm

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I think the main reason would have to do with the fact that when Watchmen came out, it took EVERYTHING people knew about the SuperHero genre and threw it completely in another direction. It was unexpected, something no one saw coming. Whether or not you saw BioShock coming, it doesn't change the fact that it's so close to System Shock 2 that anyone who recognized it as such was genuinely unimpressed. It's hard to really praise something when you've already seen it before.

In addition to that, it was limited to the 360 and the PS3, which were (and still are) pretty damned expensive, and on the PC, which is really hard to get going to a respectable degree. Watchmen, being a comic book (or graphic novel, if you preffer) was considerably less expensive and more widely available.

Thing is, Watchmen was so amazing because it took everything you thought you knew about the medium and really made people think about what it was. BioShock was simply not up to the standard. The game that will truly open games up as an artistic medium so we can finally get the respect we deserve has to either say something incredible in the way it's written or be so genuinely well thought out that no one at all can come up with any criticism for it. (Here's hoping that game ends up being 'The Last Gaurdian' or something similar ;) )

Anyways, I haven't actually played the game yet, or read watchmen for that matter, so feel free to ignore my opinion on the subject. But all of my friends love both of them, so here's hoping BioShock Inf. sets out to be it's own game rather than a less impressive but still great re-telling of the same story.
 

godofallu

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Chibz said:
It wasn't "Our Watchmen" because it was an overwhelmingly mediocre game with a mildly intriguing setting. The only thing that stood out to me was how underwhelming it was.
Seconded. Watchmen is a work of genius, Bioshock is just another bland FPS that didn't even bother to include multiplayer.

Plus Comics are not main stream at all. I have never seen anyone read a real comic book in my entire life.
 

Pedro The Hutt

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Well, not every FPS game needs multiplayer, in my opinion. I enjoyed Crysis but not once did I check out its multiplayer component.

But I will second that Bioshock was bland, and ultimately not the least bit worrying since it was impossible to get a game over. Other than a few obligatory plasmid puzzles you could basically wrench your way from start to finish like an angry engineer if you felt like it.
 

Halo Fanboy

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Because we've had any number of games already that have superb stories, and none of them had the effect you're looking for.

All the OP does is reveal how insecure we gamers are about our medium. If a game's not going to be 'our Watchmen', then it's going to be our 'Citizen Kane', or our 'Gone With The Wind'. We're so desparate for a game to come out with a legitimately good story, that we're blind to all the games that have already proven that games can tell stories as well as any other medium.

Examples include Planescape: Torment, Final Fantasy VI/VII/IX, KotOR I/II, Half-Life/HL2 + episodes, Deus Ex, System Shock, Silent Hill 2, Shadow of the Colossus/ Ico... I could go on.
Those game haven't proven that games are a good at storytelling and personably I wouldn't rate any of them highly. The exeptions being Planscape which I haven't played and Deus Ex. The rest of the games only have acceptable narratives despite being games. The player's control by it's very nature interferes with the narrative, you can break character or sequence break any of those games. The narrative always can always be comprimised by the player.

Videogames are not a medium, they are simulations that allow you to interact with a scenario. Using them to tell a story only dilutes the story. Meaningfull interaction (role playing) is what story based games should strive for (Deus Ex is actually a good example of this.)

EDIT: In regard to Bioshock I agree with Chibz.
 

VanillaBean

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Necromancer Jim said:
A more important question: How does it fucking matter to us whether or not people see gaming as an art form?
This seems pretty good.

Anyways despite what we may think the Video Game industry really isn't that old. Sure its surrpassed three decades but it really hasn't gotten to the point where Watchmen was in the comic industry. The mass apeal for gaming is still growing up. In this day I'd say a good 90% of the people I know play some form of a video game every week. Sure this is good, but we have to remember that not all people who play video games play or like games such as Bioshock, therefore it hasn't gotten the universal appeal that Watchmen got when it came out. I do believe that we will probably get that "Star Wars" of the video game industry some day, but for know we'll have to do with Bioshock which I think is more along the lines of the Lawrence of Arabia of gaming.
 

Kufaz

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The Bucket said:
I wouldn't say Watchmen made the general public accept comics as an artform-thats-totally-not just-for-kids. How many non comic geeks have actually read it? Yeah, maybe it was what made the medium critically accepted, but i'm guessing that most people skimmed over that part of Times 100 books.

The weird thing is, Superhero Movies, particular the last decades worth have probably done more to get comics accepted as something beyond the domain of geeks, something that isn't uncool to try and get into than anything else. Which the gaming equivelant is probably the CODs and the Wii sports come to think of it.
I agree. I think that games might be accepted when someone produces a movie from one that doesn't completely suck scrotum. Unfortunately, we will probably be waiting for a long time, considering how different telling a story with a game is than a movie.

Extra credits once made the point that video games may need a "re-branding", like how comics were marketed as graphic novels. The term video game, is after all, not very accurate. They certainly aren't videos, and most are not strictly speaking, games.