Why wasn't Bioshock our Watchman?

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Yellowbeard

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rabidmidget said:
Although Bioshock was definitely a step forward in storytelling in games, I don't think it was quite the medium's "Watchmen" just yet due to some of its flaws.

I would still like to see some of the game-design ideas in Bioshock used in future games, such as it's great use of "storytelling through gameplay" and sophisticated underlying message
What are you talking about? All this was done YEARS ago. Bioshock didn't bring anything new to the medium.

Also, about the artistic acceptance of whole media types: guys, by the time we're comfortable calling it "the industry" it's all so much commercialized tripe as far as the average is concerned. A transcendent example might be a work of art, that's what I'd call The Sands of Time, or Homeworld, but Rainbow Six 3 isn't a work of art. Game's in general aren't art, they're games. Same as movies; it's not hard to see Pan's Labyrinth as a work of art, but to say the same about Commando?

On a side note, as a non-comics reader who's read Watchmen and V for Vendetta (and some Sandman) I respectfully think Alan Moore's idea of "unfilmable" comics is bullshit. The concept makes sense, but doesn't ring true for those books. Watchmen was by far the most faithful adaptation of ANYTHING to film I've ever seen, and I almost liked it better than the book. A few crucial flaws, though.
 

The_Echo

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Uh, because BioShock's status as an artistic game is far and wide set on very little ground? For me, BioShock is just a more original FPS.

I'd say that Heavy Rain would be closer to a Watchmen-type of thing for gaming.
 

humor_involuntario

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Let's don't make this a bioshock vs system shock 2 thread, shall we?
We all know that it dosn't matters how good (or bad or whatever it is irelevant) a game is, as long as it was the sequel or spiritual succesor or somthing of another game it sucks compared to it.
Good<Nostalgia
Anyways, it wasn't as artistic as many other games, and it will take years for any game we could call to be in par with watchmen to make any sort of impact
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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For me, personally, it very nearly was.

Bioshock remains one of the only, if not the only, game with a narrative that I can straight-facedly compare to those found in other mediums.

Sadly it suffered from a distinct disconnect in story and gameplay. Story was about Andrew Ryan, his creation of Rapture and the city's subsequent downfall. Gameplay was about shooting crazy people in the face.

As for why it didn't get mainstream admiration... well, I'd say that's mainly because it's a first person shooter.

Wait. Hear me out.

When a non-gamer looks at someone playing Bioshock, what are they going to see? More than likely, the player will be killing splicers or looting bodies or containers. That non-gamer will just see yet another virtual shooting gallery designed for the realization of adolescent power fantasies.

And they wouldn't be completely wrong.
 

Chewster

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Apr 24, 2008
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A few things, I think.

For one, BioShock, while gorgeous and rich in story (or maybe richer than most), wasn't too complex as far as gameplay goes. I think that there will end up being other games that are looked back at as landmark as far as the medium goes. Two that spring to mind are Deus Ex and Prince of Persia: the Sands of Time (probably others too), but that is just my opinion.

For two, gaming hasn't quite made it to the big leagues yet, if you ask me. A tiny column in most mainstream newspapers isn't quite enough to convince a lot of people that this is legit, even if the cash being made should be enough to convince anyone that gaming is not going away anytime soon. Digital gaming is more and more being accepted and used in conjunction with other forms of art, but the transition is slow.

Third, not every medium evolves and is accepted at the same rate. Comics have come far from their 50s (and earlier) roots, as far as being accepted as legitimate forms of "art" but even they aren't universally accepted to this day. Art is probably the most subjective thing in existence and it may take games longer than other media, though who knows.

Forth, gamers act like spoiled children sometimes and online experiences do little to help foster that games are "mature" enough to be considered art, though a lot of game content doesn't much help. I mean, Duke Nukem is still on its way, isn't it? While the majority of gamers might be older, it is the noisy dickheads and the childish gorefests that garner the most attention and that does us all a disservice, unfortunately.

Regardless, asking why any game hasn't changed the industry, one that is already so deeply rooted in commercialism, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The film industry has and does some amazing things, but the majority is formulaic, bland nonsense, and this commercialized "art" form is no different. Why would it be? Risks cost money and these corporations are not in the business of losing cash or they'll end up like Tim Schafer: lauded for making amazingly different games, and not making a whole lot of money. Unless the industry reaches stagnation to the point of losing a lot of customers or else someone makes something radically different that gives them a practical license to print money (i.e. the Wii (sort of)) don't expect it to change.

I imagine as Game Studies establishes itself more and more a legitimate subset of Communications in academia, there will be less and less debate over the acceptance of video games. Right now it is established but not quite centralized, so we have a way to go (remember that Communications as an academic discipline is only forty or so years old). The media will follow soon after, and have started already.

These things always take time.
 

Osaka117

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Feb 20, 2011
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I'm certainly glad that it wasn't, since Watchmen wasn't anything to shake a stick at really. It was a rather boring movie that went on for way too damn long that doesn't hold a candle to the artistic masterpiece that is Bioshock.
 

AyreonMaiden

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Argh again with the art thing.

"Art" is stupid. Love what you love and screw everyone who doesn't agree. Not even Fumito Ueda thinks his medium is the high art so many here and everywhere else like to be so boisterous about.* I mean, the maker of the posterchild for The Highest Art Games doesn't think games are any more art than Naruto and Van Wilder. Does that change what SotC made you feel?

I've seen people here mention that the reason we should care is because of censorship. True, it may be harder to ban "art" than "entertainment," but does anyone really think the public would take such a prospect lying down, even if gaming wasn't considered "art" by Joe Schmo? Can anyone even make an argument good enough to damn gaming forever in the US? People tried not too long ago in California, but does anyone truly think they're gonna win?

Sounds to me like the issue isn't that the industry needs to "mature," so much as it's governments of less accepting countries needing to get their heads out of their asses. There's so much room in the world for an infinite amount of CoD sequels, as well as an infinite amount of pretentious arty indie platformers.


OT: Because Bioshock, like most videogames, is placing more of its focus on its fun, arcade gameplay than anything else.

* Source: http://kotaku.com/#!5773242/ico-creator-thinks-video-games-are-art-sometimes
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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Osaka117 said:
I'm certainly glad that it wasn't, since Watchmen wasn't anything to shake a stick at really. It was a rather boring movie that went on for way too damn long that doesn't hold a candle to the artistic masterpiece that is Bioshock.
The movie was terrible. We are talking about the awesomeness that is Watchmen [http://www.amazon.com/Watchmen-Alan-Moore/dp/0930289234].
 

LoFr3Eq

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Oct 15, 2008
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If any game would be the defining point at which modern society considered the media 'Art', there would be many many games that come before Bioshock (though I did kinda like the game).

Portal comes to mind, but so does Tetris, Pac Man, Wolfenstein 3D, Half Life, Starcraft, Civilisation series, Pokemon, Heavy Rain, Angry Birds, and Ocarina of Time.

There are many I have missed out, so don't call me on missing some obvious ones.

If there is an easily accessible game, that the public considers on a more serious level than most games, and is comparable to other mordern art, we then have a winner.
 

Osaka117

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
The movie was terrible. We are talking about the awesomeness that is Watchmen [http://www.amazon.com/Watchmen-Alan-Moore/dp/0930289234].
Sorry, I never read the source material, I only saw the movie on a whim and didn't like it. I'm not really into comics, but if I ever happen on a copy I'll be sure to read it.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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Osaka117 said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
The movie was terrible. We are talking about the awesomeness that is Watchmen [http://www.amazon.com/Watchmen-Alan-Moore/dp/0930289234].
Sorry, I never read the source material, I only saw the movie on a whim and didn't like it. I'm not really into comics, but if I ever happen on a copy I'll be sure to read it.
Just make sure you don't have plans when you get it. I don't read many comics, but I was drawn into Watchmen. I pulled an all-nighter finishing it in one sitting. It is really hard to put down once you start.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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AyreonMaiden said:
Argh again with the art thing.

"Art" is stupid. Love what you love and screw everyone who doesn't agree. Not even Fumito Ueda thinks his medium is the high art so many here and everywhere else like to be so boisterous about.* I mean, the maker of the posterchild for The Highest Art Games doesn't think games are any more art than Naruto and Van Wilder. Does that change what SotC made you feel?

I've seen people here mention that the reason we should care is because of censorship. True, it may be harder to ban "art" than "entertainment," but does anyone really think the public would take such a prospect lying down, even if gaming wasn't considered "art" by Joe Schmo? Can anyone even make an argument good enough to damn gaming forever in the US? People tried not too long ago in California, but does anyone truly think they're gonna win?

Sounds to me like the issue isn't that the industry needs to "mature," so much as it's governments of less accepting countries needing to get their heads out of their asses. There's so much room in the world for an infinite amount of CoD sequels, as well as an infinite amount of pretentious arty indie platformers.


OT: Because Bioshock, like most videogames, is placing more of its focus on its fun, arcade gameplay than anything else.

* Source: http://kotaku.com/#!5773242/ico-creator-thinks-video-games-are-art-sometimes
Okay, I'm going to make this as plain as possible: I want games to be considered an art form so that it may enjoy all of the legal protections and responsibilities of one; just as painting, photography, film/television, music and literature enjoy. It is far harder to censure art.

Not every game will be something artistic of course, but this kind of protections is better to have and not need, than to need it and not have it.
 

Roxor

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I don't think gaming will widely become considered an art form without a few more basic changes to how computers are handled.

I think for gaming to become as mainstream as TV or movies, computing is going to have to change to a system where every program can be run on every device with sufficient computational power. This would require a standardisation of architecture and operating systems. On the hardware side of things, AMD is already working towards that goal.
 

starwarsgeek

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Basically, we're not going to get our Watchmen, or Citizen Kane, or any other classic you want to bring up.

Different mediums evolve differently, and each have their own challenges to overcome. We don't need our Watchmen anymore than the next medium will need its Ocarina of Time.


As for why Bioshock didn't make games accepted by the general public as an artform...for that to finally happen, it will take a game that:

1. Is very well made--great level design, writting, art style, atmosphere, ect.
2. Not only will it need to be well made; it will need to be well made in a way that wouldn't work in another form--it has to use its interactivity.
3. This game will need to be very accessible--accessible to a point that just isn't possible yet.
4. This game will have to be noticed, which means the "general public" will need to be ready to listen.
5. And, most likely, it's going to take a lot of games to actually pull this off.

While Bioshock did have a good use of interactivity for the twist
After all, why would the player question following all those orders...we do it all the time
, it will take more than that.
 

KeyMaster45

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Jun 16, 2008
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Necromancer Jim said:
A more important question: How does it fucking matter to us whether or not people see gaming as an art form?
Because getting it accepted as an art form forces people like Jack Thompson to shut their yapps for good. Right now games are seen as toys, toys for children no less. By getting them the label of "accepted art form" then Thompson and others like him have no ground to stand on because art (at least in the US) is protected under the first amendment as a form of free speech. Meaning no more idiotic laws trying to be passed banning the sale of violent games. It would take video games out of the "boogie man corrupting our youth" spotlight that's been shined on movies, music, and comic books in the past.

Developers would be free to not worry about if labeling the blue team as "Taliban" in their next game would set off a shit-storm of angry people trying to get the game banned. Once video games are labeled "art" people can get angry, but there's not a damn thing they can do about it.
 

nuba km

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Jun 7, 2010
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reasons comic books werent accepted: childish and weren't able to tell a good story, watchmen changed that

reasons video games aren't accepted: seen as either childish or murder simulators or both, and the fact it has game in the name of the media, bioshock did not change that.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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Osaka117 said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
The movie was terrible. We are talking about the awesomeness that is Watchmen [http://www.amazon.com/Watchmen-Alan-Moore/dp/0930289234].
Sorry, I never read the source material, I only saw the movie on a whim and didn't like it. I'm not really into comics, but if I ever happen on a copy I'll be sure to read it.
It's one of the two greatest comic books of all time. In TIME's view.

The other being Maus. It really IS that good.