Will we ever get a super hero movie where the villain wins at the end?

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EternallyBored

Terminally Apathetic
Jun 17, 2013
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krazykidd said:
BigTuk said:
Well I dunno if RObocop counts as a Superhero but yeah... the bad guys technically won in that film.

Otherwise...not really. It sorta bum out the audience and make them less likely to see the sequel.
You really think no one would enjoy a movie , where the villain conquers the world and kills the protagonist?
Likely not from Marvel or DC, if you end a movie with Superman or Captain America dead, and have the villains win, especially since comic book villains tend to be over-the-top evil, in the way that means the Earth will likely be destroyed as well, you're going to end up with a lot more people going "well that was fucking stupid" versus people liking it just for being different.



I mean sure it's kinda dark, but with all the happy end and bitter sweet end, i would think people would enjoy something different and possibly unexpected. And ,Have it be canon and definate. You don't think? Edit: Of course it would have to be well written of course. Or maybe even forshadowed.

It works for horror movies ( and rarely chick flics) , why couldn't it bleed out into other genres?
What works for horror movies doesn't necessarily work for every other movie.

If you set up a specific movie with its own heroes and villains, you could probably make it work, especially if the tone is fairly dark right from the beginning. You would have a ***** of a time selling the idea though, and I still doubt even if it's done well that people would flock to it the way they do for other hero movies. People generally don't go into superhero movies interested in IF the hero wins, they want to see HOW the hero wins.

But still, there's no way in hell Marvel or DC is going to hand the villains a permanent win, that is way too risky a move for the kind of money these companies are pouring into movie series that have multi-year tunrarounds, they pretty much never do it for comics outside self-contained stories, and those are cheap and easy to produce compared to a Hollywood movie.
 

Siege_TF

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krazykidd said:
Batou667 said:
What, like Thor 2?

Words words words, this is a full-length post, honest, words words words.
The villain in thor 2 wasn't Loki... That was more like a side action.

Edit: and loki sure as hell didn't beat Thor.
[color-green]>Implying the bad guy has to beat the good guy in a bout of fisticuffs to win.[/color-green]

Xanatos gambit, ever hear of it?

SPOILER
The Dark Knight ended with Batman not winning.

Anyways no, the American public can't handle something like that according to Hollywood. Grey morality? Downer endings? Why not just set a big pile of money on fire and cut out the middlemen?
 

darkcalling

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In Watchmen (both movie and comic) the antagonist definitely wins. It's just a question of whether you think he's really a villain or not. He was basically doing a horrible thing to stop what otherwise might have been world war 3.

In G.I.Joe: the rise of cobra despite their immediate plans being stopped they succeeded in their largest objective, placing Zartan undercover as the president. Without which they couldn't have almost won in the sequel.
 

Tanis

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Aug 30, 2010
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I doubt it, maybe if it's a way to set up the next 'phase' as some kind of 'there's always hope' type of a deal.

Besides the repeated mentions above...

I guess, technically, the villain in Wolf's Rain kind of 'wins'.

Maybe even Bebop, with the ambiguity of the last battle.
 

mysecondlife

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Feb 24, 2011
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Marvel has like what... film release schedule up to 2019? With that many films, at least one of them is bound to have a victorious villain...

Speaking of victorious villain, they should really make Dr. Horrible a full feature film. The low budget of it all has its charms but I'm curious how it'd turn out if it had bigger budget.
 

Kroxile

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it is for the reasons stated by the OP (things become predictable and boring yada yada that I always play evil in any game or setting that allows me to lol
 

fix-the-spade

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krazykidd said:
I really don't know if watchman counts. I mean he achieved world peace, that doesn't sound very villainous. I think in this game the ends justifies the means. Sure an entire city was leveled, but all war ceased. It's a pretty grey area if you ask me. I read that graphic novel, it was really good. Pretty damn dark to boot.
Ah, but by the time he does it Watchdog's history is already realigning with reality. The Russians really did go into Afghanistan, but they never crossed into Pakistan, America didn't intervene directly (but very nearly did) and eventually the proxy war fought in Afghanistan petered out as the Russians ran out of money.

Veidt kills millions of people on the assumption that nobody else on the planet has a plan beyond their basic animal instincts. He betrays and murders his friends and destroys an entire city on the strength of his ego to prevent something that wasn't going to happen anyway.

That makes him the worst kind of bad guy, the one that truly believes he is doing the right thing.
 

elvor0

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fix-the-spade said:
The Joker wins in the Dark Knight too.

He breaks Harvey, he turns the world against Batman. Even in DK:R he has still won, because Harvey's legacy is destroyed, the Batman may be restored, but in doing so Harvery Dent and Gordon's image are shattered.
Bleh, that ending was so contrived. "The Joker" didn't win, Batman and Gordan were just complete morons. The Joker? Nooo not his fault, the fucking madman who just ran around blowing the city up and killing loads of people, for which Harveys state is his fault anyway. Have Harvey be killed by the Joker and he becomes a martyr, his legacy is intact, Batman doesn't have to take the blame for it, Gordon doesn't have to lie on such a big scale and the script writers don't look like they've completely forgotten half the movie in an attempt to make an ending "iconic" just for the sake of it.

Harveys sudden turn doesn't even make sense, there was no precident for it set up earlier in the movie, he takes an injury and his girlfriend dies, and then suddenly goes on a murdering rampage, including 1 cop. Sure, he had beatings from his father, but there's nothing before or after he tells that story to suggest he has a "darker" side.
 

ExtraDebit

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I think the important question is: would people enjoy a movie where the villain wins in the end, regardless of if they're super or not? Answer: FUCK YES!

Movies like *swordfish* had the villain win at the end and people actually cheered. Or how about *Thank you for smoking*?The protagonist there can easily be view as a villain. You just need a good actor with charisma and a character with an evil goal that the audience can relate to.
 

Fairly Chaotic

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The bad guy would have to be the protagonist while the hero(s) become apart of the supporting cast. Think in terms of Frank Underwood in House of Cards or Heisenberg in Breaking Bad. The hero or heroes can not be fleshed out and the movie has to mainly follow the exploits of the villain. So yes, I think it can be accomplished.
 

lechat

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watchmen doesn't count.
dude was a super genius that figured the only way to stop global annihilation was to kill a few million people.
far as i'm concerned he was the hero.
 

RazgrizRex

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Well it's not a film but the Mortal Kombat Conquest TV series ended with Shao Kahn winning... so there's that... I guess.
 

Saetha

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krazykidd said:
So my question is : do you think we will ever get a super hero movie where the villain wins at the end?
Isn't this basically the plot of Megamind? Like, there was a movie that the villain won. And it's a kid's movie, too.

The whole movie dealt with the aftermath of Megamind's victory and how he responds to the sudden lack of challenging opposition. He ends up being so bored with his victory that he tries to create a new superhero just to have someone who can actually give him a run for his money. It's actually a pretty cool movie.

But on the subject - the issue with having the villain win is that it's much harder to pull off in a satisfying way. It's very, very easy for the reader or watcher or whatever to end up feeling cheated, since you spend all this time building up to the epic showdown... only for the hero to get a bullet through the skull, the villain to cackle a bit over his corpse, and the end credits to roll just as the audience realizes that's all the closure they're gonna get. Because that's the thing. Closure. Whether your ending is happy or sad or whatever, it needs closure. It needs to feel like everything was wrapped up in a natural but satisfying way. It's not impossible to have a shaggy dog story with closure, but it's difficult and you can't blame people for going the easier route. It'd be easier if you have a villain protagonist, because in that way you can still have that satisfaction of the protagonist coming to terms with his situation without dying, but that offers it's own issues. Namely, how to get people to sympathize with a shameless villain, but there's also the danger of trying to make them too likeable and ending up with an anti-hero.

...but seriously, why does everyone overlook Megamind?
 

FPLOON

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Jul 10, 2013
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Wait... So MegaMind doesn't count, then?

OT: If the [super-]villain did win, then wouldn't that ending be more of a downer or something? I mean, unless the intention was the "maybe we are rooting for the wrong side this whole time" angle, I don't see any actual positives to a [super-]villain winning without it making it seem like they are the good guys in some way, shape, or form...

Then again, if it's "[super-]villain vs [super-]villain", you can't say that the good guy won that round, am I right? :p
 

krazykidd

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Saetha said:
krazykidd said:
So my question is : do you think we will ever get a super hero movie where the villain wins at the end?
Isn't this basically the plot of Megamind? Like, there was a movie that the villain won. And it's a kid's movie, too.

The whole movie dealt with the aftermath of Megamind's victory and how he responds to the sudden lack of challenging opposition. He ends up being so bored with his victory that he tries to create a new superhero just to have someone who can actually give him a run for his money. It's actually a pretty cool movie.

But on the subject - the issue with having the villain win is that it's much harder to pull off in a satisfying way. It's very, very easy for the reader or watcher or whatever to end up feeling cheated, since you spend all this time building up to the epic showdown... only for the hero to get a bullet through the skull, the villain to cackle a bit over his corpse, and the end credits to roll just as the audience realizes that's all the closure they're gonna get. Because that's the thing. Closure. Whether your ending is happy or sad or whatever, it needs closure. It needs to feel like everything was wrapped up in a natural but satisfying way. It's not impossible to have a shaggy dog story with closure, but it's difficult and you can't blame people for going the easier route. It'd be easier if you have a villain protagonist, because in that way you can still have that satisfaction of the protagonist coming to terms with his situation without dying, but that offers it's own issues. Namely, how to get people to sympathize with a shameless villain, but there's also the danger of trying to make them too likeable and ending up with an anti-hero.

...but seriously, why does everyone overlook Megamind?
Megamind is that movie with the blue guy with the big head right? I never saw that movie, and never actually heard anyone talk about i until now. Maybe i'll give it a watch.

As for your second point. That's very valid point. But i don't know, would people really leave the cinema saying " this movie sucks" because the superhero didn't win ( and/or dies). I find that a little weird to be honest, always requiring the hero to win or else they feel cheated. I'm honestly surprised people aren't tired of the same old thing, and wouldn't like a curve ball throw at them once in a while. But that's just me hence the thread.

Does it also work that way for books? Or is it just movies?
 

Uriel_Hayabusa

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It wouldn't surprise me if we get a superhero movie where the bad guy has an honest-to-goodness victory one of these days. The genre is now so popular that a movie has to try something to stand out from the pack.
 

EternallyBored

Terminally Apathetic
Jun 17, 2013
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krazykidd said:
Megamind is that movie with the blue guy with the big head right? I never saw that movie, and never actually heard anyone talk about i until now. Maybe i'll give it a watch.

As for your second point. That's very valid point. But i don't know, would people really leave the cinema saying " this movie sucks" because the superhero didn't win ( and/or dies). I find that a little weird to be honest, always requiring the hero to win or else they feel cheated. I'm honestly surprised people aren't tired of the same old thing, and wouldn't like a curve ball throw at them once in a while. But that's just me hence the thread.

Does it also work that way for books? Or is it just movies?
You mean comic books? or books in general, because it's going to depend on the genre. For superheroes, the villain can win but it is almost always part of a self-contained story, alternate universe, or a temporary setback where another hero comes along and wins or the defeated hero returns and wins.

For iconic superheroes, a lot of it is because the reason people go to see these movies is to see the heroes in action, Batman is pretty much the only superhero where his villains are anywhere near as popular as he is, and part of that is because they aren't largely super-powered omnicidal maniacs, so them winning once in a while doesn't mean everyone on the planet dies or is enslaved.

If you did kill off an iconic superhero, then yes, you are likely going to get more people bitching than appreciating the change in direction.

With original superheroes, or less well knowns, you could probably do it successfully if you really did it well, you would probably have to use a lower scale villain, as Galactus level villains tend to be monumentally uninteresting when they win since they are closer to forces of nature for a hero to fight against.

Something like a Batman style villain that fails in the end and the crime boss wins, you could make an interesting deconstruction of vigilantes out of that. Or something like the aforementioned Megamind, where the villain wins then finds out that he didn't really have any motivation or goal beyond taking out the hero, that can make a good comedy. Having an actually momentously evil villain win, even if its well set up, tends to irk the audience, unless you can give that villain enough sympathetic traits to make the audience like them, then they are going to want the hero to win by default, especially at anything aimed at younger audiences.