Woman murdered for rejecting a man, another gets her throat slashed for the same.

[Corran006]

Perhaps we should also look at how many woman kill babies.

 

[Callate]

I see it as something even more dangerous. It is a mentality that enforces gender norms. Mainly women as objects, not actors. Things happen to women, women are incapable of enacting real change.

More over there exists a tacit admission that only one gender is capable of anything we could call "evil." Which on some level IMHO is dehumanizing to women.

Interesting idea.

Part of the reason these debates get so poisonous is that to suggest that one person has done ill is to suggest that everyone like them has, or is likely to, making it all but impossible for members of those groups to admit there might be a problem within their own ranks.

I want to lend a voice of confident approval for what you've written here. Your observation is very astute and well worded. Things like rape culture, privilege and misogyny are often just as misunderstood by those who invoke them as those who deny them. I greatly appreciate the way you summed up this problem.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Dunno about that, yes there is a difference, but I'd say the too are inseparable.

I wouldn't go as far as inseparable, though they could certainly be co-existing in some, even many, cases.

Sounds a lot like the tone argument, which is wrong for all sorts of reasons, not least that it doesn't work.

No, it really isn't. At all. It's a question of whether one wants to have a discussion that will actually involve the bulk of the people affected, or one defined by a narrow view of reality as its cost of admission.

Separating the participants solely into victims and their victimizers won't work. Especially when many on both sides refuse to see themselves as such, whatever the reality.

A suggestion that a proposal won't work implies that what's going on now is working- and again, that 77% suggests strongly that that's not the case.

Sure, but looking at issues like this will be confused with only looking at issues like this.

You cannot talk about the importance of change without upsetting people happy with things the way they are. You can water down your message until you aren't talking about change anymore, and maybe that might be tolerated, but that's about it.

I'm not suggesting watering anything down at all. Merely that a broader view is more likely to actually effect change, both in terms of the people it would bring to the table, the suggestions those people are likely to put forward, and the proposals that people who actually feel they have both a role and a stake in those proposals are likely to accept.

Yes, change is often stressful. But if everyone feels they have something positive to gain from it, it's far more likely to occur.

To indulge in a mediocre metaphor, the situation now is often: "There's a fire! Dump water on it!"

...Where a broader view might point out: "It's a grease fire, and dumping water is only going to make it spread; it's also a fire on top of electrical equipment, and dumping water on it is likely to have hazardous side effects."

The "tone argument" really suggests a counter-charge, frankly: is holding on to the pedestal of a simple wronged victim status more important than preventing further harm to future victims?

 

[totheendofsin]

These murders are tragic there is no doubt about that, but (and I'm sure some of you stopped reading there) this is not a sexism issue, it is a mental health issue

getting upset at rejection is normal
getting upset to the point of vocally harassing the one doing the rejection is sexist
getting upset to the point of physical violence is a combination of sexism and serious anger issues
getting upset to the point of murder is a sign of a seriously unhinged individual

 

[BadNewDingus]

A lot of statistics are jammed in front of our faces thanks to the internet.

Sadly, no one can control who does what to who(well, we can but you know what I am saying). It's bound to happen and yes, those people are crazy. Anyone is crazy if they have to resort to violence if their lives are not in danger.

It is, however, narrow-minded to focus on just one race, sex or whatever - much like we do today. It's sadly a popular thing to do these stories(violence, death threats and so on against women) these days. Let us not forget that some people even make money off these women via YouTube videos and donations to charities that really don't do anything. That shouldn't stop us from trying to change a little, but not at the price putting all men or women into a category that will just create more chaos.

 

[Thaluikhain]

These murders are tragic there is no doubt about that, but (and I'm sure some of you stopped reading there) this is not a sexism issue, it is a mental health issue

Based on what?

For that matter, lets assume, for sake of argument, that it is. That, as men are much more likely to commit this sort of murder, our society causes mental illness leading to violence in men much more than women. That is still a sexism issue.

 

[Ramzal]

These murders are tragic there is no doubt about that, but (and I'm sure some of you stopped reading there) this is not a sexism issue, it is a mental health issue

Based on what?

For that matter, lets assume, for sake of argument, that it is. That, as men are much more likely to commit this sort of murder, our society causes mental illness leading to violence in men much more than women. That is still a sexism issue.

It has little to do with sexism and more to do with how they reacted to rejection. It hurts to have your feelings rejected and they responded in the worst way possible. Strong odds say that if both of them were gay men, the same thing would have happened. Saying that this is related to sexism borders on the line of apophenia. They didn't die because they were women, they died because of impulse control issues and not knowing how to handle rejection.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It has little to do with sexism and more to do with how they reacted to rejection. It hurts to have your feelings rejected and they responded in the worst way possible. Strong odds say that if both of them were gay men, the same thing would have happened.

Dunno about that, but, again, for sake of argument, let's assume this is true.

I do not believe that men are inherently more murderous. So something must be causing the higher rates of murder for men, and that is almost certainly going to be a sexism issue.

 

[Theodora]

These murders are tragic there is no doubt about that, but (and I'm sure some of you stopped reading there) this is not a sexism issue, it is a mental health issue

Based on what?

For that matter, lets assume, for sake of argument, that it is. That, as men are much more likely to commit this sort of murder, our society causes mental illness leading to violence in men much more than women. That is still a sexism issue.

Have comprehensive studies on female violence ever realistically been done?

I've never seen any even conducted that were not needlessly patronizing and downplaying it.

 

[Ramzal]

It has little to do with sexism and more to do with how they reacted to rejection. It hurts to have your feelings rejected and they responded in the worst way possible. Strong odds say that if both of them were gay men, the same thing would have happened.

Dunno about that, but, again, for sake of argument, let's assume this is true.

I do not believe that men are inherently more murderous. So something must be causing the higher rates of murder for men, and that is almost certainly going to be a sexism issue.

To be perfectly honest, no one actually has a real solid answer as to why murder rates are higher in men than women. Some believed it was due to sex hormones such as testosterone. However, research over the last decade has shown there is only a slightly higher level of testosterone in more violent subjects in male and female prisons when compared to the less violent. It could be an isolated issue of how someone is raised and where but that leaves a lot of holes to be filled. All we really have are statistics and assumptions from there to go off of. But it's pretty knee-jerk to automatically assume that because men murder more often statistically it's an issue of sex.

We also have to keep in mind that the information we get on the rates of murder are related to reported cases of murder. There are plenty of cases that go unreported. I had a great aunt (deceased)from the early 1900's who killed her first husband for years of physical abuse and slamming her hand on top of a hot stove grill, but it never got reported and she never was punished for the crime.

My point is that scientifically speaking there really isn't a solid explanation for why men murder more often in a non-war setting. For the most part, just labeling it as acts of sexism is taking leaps and bounds and way less likely than mental illness/social disconnect.

 

[Thaluikhain]

These murders are tragic there is no doubt about that, but (and I'm sure some of you stopped reading there) this is not a sexism issue, it is a mental health issue

Based on what?

For that matter, lets assume, for sake of argument, that it is. That, as men are much more likely to commit this sort of murder, our society causes mental illness leading to violence in men much more than women. That is still a sexism issue.

Have comprehensive studies on female violence ever realistically been done?

I've never seen any even conducted that were not needlessly patronizing and downplaying it.

What do you mean by "comprehensive"?

I mean, it's fairly easy to see that men commit more murders, than more women are murdered by their male husband/BF whatever than the other way around, which is surely enough to point to a problem.

 

[Theodora]

These murders are tragic there is no doubt about that, but (and I'm sure some of you stopped reading there) this is not a sexism issue, it is a mental health issue

Based on what?

For that matter, lets assume, for sake of argument, that it is. That, as men are much more likely to commit this sort of murder, our society causes mental illness leading to violence in men much more than women. That is still a sexism issue.

Have comprehensive studies on female violence ever realistically been done?

I've never seen any even conducted that were not needlessly patronizing and downplaying it.

What do you mean by "comprehensive"?

I mean, it's fairly easy to see that men commit more murders, than more women are murdered by their male husband/BF whatever than the other way around, which is surely enough to point to a problem.

It is easy to see, potentially because female violence is not looked into, not investigated.

Akin to the alleged lack of serial killers in the inner city and in predominately African American communities. One proposed explanation for this dearth of serial killers is that cops assume any dead body is the result of "gang related," activity. I.E. a serial killer can go on killing and be presumed to just be a gang related offense. Racism on the part of police causes a statistical anomaly since a cookie cutter reason is given to every corpse.

Statistically female killers WHO ARE CAUGHT, make up a lopsided proportion of those whom murder with poison. Also women disproportionately make up the demographic of murder by proxy (I.E. getting someone else to kill for you) and the disproportionate number of child and infant slayings.

As for causes of death, murder by husband or bf isn't even among the top ten killers of women in the United States. SOooooo It seems you are playing fast and lose with statistical tricks.

If women made up some huge victims of murder statistic you MIGHT have a point. So far murder doesn't even rank in the top 10 causes of death. I'd say your making a gender issue out of illusions and shadows.

Comprehensive would in this case mean well done, thorough and non-ideological. The only study I've read about female violence was one coming from a Feminist scholar who preferred to no call it violence and claimed women only were violent to "get control of a chaotic situation."

 

[Ramzal]

It has little to do with sexism and more to do with how they reacted to rejection. It hurts to have your feelings rejected and they responded in the worst way possible. Strong odds say that if both of them were gay men, the same thing would have happened.

Dunno about that, but, again, for sake of argument, let's assume this is true.

I do not believe that men are inherently more murderous. So something must be causing the higher rates of murder for men, and that is almost certainly going to be a sexism issue.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/1098-2337%281994%2920:1%3C27::AID-AB2480200105%3E3.0.CO;2-Q/abstract

The abstract is pretty interesting slice of information that could clear up an issue or two here. It very possible that it has little to do with who is the aggressee and possibly more to do with how the two sexes handle aggression. Men are more likely to be physically aggressive while women maybe more likely to be covertly aggressive. One is more likely to end a life (statistically) while the other is more likely to end your social life/everyday joys (statistically.) Again, not 100% solid but it's something.

Needless to say, neither sex is clean on who does more right or wrong.

 

[BoldBaldBastard]

What is most disturbing is that the second man wasn't able to afford a gun, while both incidents happened in the great USA where every psychopathic lunatic should be able to get a gun.

Ofcourse if both women were packing heat, none of all this had happened in the first place.

/sarcasm off

 

[Theodora]

It has little to do with sexism and more to do with how they reacted to rejection. It hurts to have your feelings rejected and they responded in the worst way possible. Strong odds say that if both of them were gay men, the same thing would have happened.

Dunno about that, but, again, for sake of argument, let's assume this is true.

I do not believe that men are inherently more murderous. So something must be causing the higher rates of murder for men, and that is almost certainly going to be a sexism issue.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/1098-2337%281994%2920:1%3C27::AID-AB2480200105%3E3.0.CO;2-Q/abstract

The abstract is pretty interesting slice of information that could clear up an issue or two here. It very possible that it has little to do with who is the aggressee and possibly more to do with how the two sexes handle aggression. Men or more likely to be physically aggressive while women maybe more likely to be covertly aggressive. One is more likely to end a life (statistically) while the other is more likely to end your social life/everyday joys (statistically.) Again, not 100% solid but it's something.

Needless to say, neither sex is clean on who does more right or wrong.

One will break your body, the other will break your soul.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It is easy to see, potentially because female violence is not looked into, not investigated.

Akin to the alleged lack of serial killers in the inner city and in predominately African American communities. One proposed explanation for this dearth of serial killers is that cops assume any dead body is the result of "gang related," activity. I.E. a serial killer can go on killing and be presumed to just be a gang related offense. Racism on the part of police causes a statistical anomaly since a cookie cutter reason is given to every corpse.

I have a hard time believing that, especially given that the same trend is visible across lots of different jurisdictions, including ones with much less overall murder rates.

As for causes of death, murder by husband or bf isn't even among the top ten killers of women in the United States. SOooooo It seems you are playing fast and lose with statistical tricks.

If women made up some huge victims of murder statistic you MIGHT have a point. So far murder doesn't even rank in the top 10 causes of death. I'd say your making a gender issue out of illusions and shadows.

When did I say it was anything like the top ten?

Statistically female killers WHO ARE CAUGHT, make up a lopsided proportion of those whom murder with poison. Also women disproportionately make up the demographic of murder by proxy (I.E. getting someone else to kill for you) and the disproportionate number of child and infant slayings.

So?

The abstract is pretty interesting slice of information that could clear up an issue or two here. It very possible that it has little to do with who is the aggressee and possibly more to do with how the two sexes handle aggression. Men or more likely to be physically aggressive while women maybe more likely to be covertly aggressive. One is more likely to end a life (statistically) while the other is more likely to end your social life/everyday joys (statistically.) Again, not 100% solid but it's something.

Needless to say, neither sex is clean on who does more right or wrong.

Something of a false equivalency there. Murder is one of the worst crimes according to our justice system, assault following a little way behind.

In any case, we are still left with the question of why this is the case.

 

[Karathos]

A man was beheaded with a knife for believing in a different invisible friend in the sky. In other news humanity is full of sickos and people still die unjustly every day.

It doesn't have anything to do with gender. It has everything to do with humanity being very cruel to one another.

 

[Angelblaze]

All I have going through my head is the saying 'A mans worst fear is being laughed at - a woman's worst fear is being murdered'

This saying is stupid, belittling to EVERYONE involved, and inaccurate.

My worst fear is that I will wake up one day to find that everyone and everything I ever thought I knew was, in fact, a lie and that I had made it all up in an attempt to keep myself from knowing that I'm actually a serial killer in an insane asylum.

My second is that a woman will accuse me of raping her child thereby destroying my life, livelihood and any chance at a happy life.

My third is that I will be forced to violate my self-imposed oath of celibacy, dooming me to burn for all eternity in the fiery pits of hell.

My fourth is dieing before completing a novel. Fifth is that I'll commit suicide, then comes wasps, needles, and drowning.

How is this " belittling"? I have been attacked my multiple men, have been stalked by men, Have had to put a man in prison for actually trying to kill me and the only reason I am here now is my neighbor stopped him and was stabbed in the process. Women fear these things because of our experiences. The reason women fear this is because this is not some thing you read about on the news, most of us have been attacked by men or has had someone close to us who has. Of course I am afraid for myself and others due to these things. I was violently raped, my best friend was raped, my sister was raped, my grandmother was raped, ALL by different men... this is not some uncommon thing at all is the problem. It is very scary telling a guy "No" because of how many guys respond when you do. Trying to make them understand that you do not want relations with them without them becoming angry is often difficult to do.

I am trying to understand why you think it would belittling to admit that I have nightmares about being attacked now due to events that happened. Why would saying that is your worst fear be belittling?

To extend on this; I'm a 17 year old hermit, virgin, I stay inside the house literally ALL DAY, ALMOST EVERY DAY.

Thus far, in my seventeen years, I have had 2 attempted kidnappings/sexual assaults against my person, at least five sexual advances towards me by men older then me, two within the past two months. Not over the internet. In real life, just going to the store down the block and back on foot.

My most significant run in with a man was a man who stalked my mother in an attempt to kidnap my little sister, eventually bringing it into the court where he worked and getting visitation. He outright lied in court, worked in direct contact with the papers used in the court battle and intimately knew the person who came to interview me and my little sister for the case.

So we ran from the state over the course of about five to seven years, moved at least three times and eventually through a massive legal battle and crap tons of money we got the case moved from his court and into another one that demanded DNA testing in order to prove he was the biological father that he claimed to be.

He wasn't. We won. He ruined my peace of mind and safety for five years and more then likely I won't be able to trust many people again since in the earliest times of my family's relationship with him he was considering within the bounds of trustworthy and even gave us a free place to stay with him during hard times (though, that was when it got weird.)

Another story that tells a little more about me. I don't dress like other girls dress. I stay head to toe covered as much as I can manage, usually shrugging on a sweat jacket and keeping it zipped up - mainly because I'm well endowed and don't want attention. I still get attention. Almost all sexual from men.

This isn't just a 'media tells women to be scared so they act all scared'. This is real fucking life. Most women, at some time in their lives, will have to deal with some guy that either can't take a hint or don't want to and most women, at some time in their lives, will know or come in contact with rape/sexual assault victims or perpetrators. You can claim from statistics, pull numbers and selectively ignore what you want but making the claim that women are belittled by fearing something that happens a-fucking-lot, is outright ignorance.

Hell, IMO you thinking that a woman (assuming maliciously) claiming you raped her child would ruin your life is more ridiculous given the hoops one has to jump through.

 

[Sizzle Montyjing]

Well, any group will tend to look back if you focus on every bad thing that they do. Shit, you could make my local church group look like psychopaths if you homed in on the right stuff.
I'm getting bored of this pressure from people, acting as if though I should apologise for my gender.

 

[Dragonmouth]

Men may or may not make up the majority of homicide victims but that's irrelevant. The fact is that women are faced with certain risks when saying no to sexual advances even if the result isn't always lethal.

http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com/

 

[Thaluikhain]

snip

Might want to add some more there so you don't get modded for low content, even though the link is very relevant.