Women and Gaming

[Gindil]

If more women want to be developers, let them and shut up. Quit twisting arms. If they want to do it, they will.

Something I'm going to nip in the bud right here. I'm not twisting arms in asking for an opinion on something like this. It's a debate, people agree and disagree. That's life. But if you feel the need to tell people that you disagree with to "shut up" I'll kindly ask you to leave the thread. Makes no difference to me nor my opinion if you disagree. If you want to convince me otherwise, then do so with respect. But making enemies by being bossy is not something I'm looking forward to discussing while I'm a guest on these forums. With that, I'll look into your post.

As far as the past few millenias are concerned, yes, war is male territory. Not supposedly. It simply is.

I don't feel the need like many people nowadays to make each gender an equal part of a profession at all cost.

We don't need no gender taking part more into whatever.
We need genders to do what they like and what they want. Because people work better when they are passionate about their duties or tasks.

We don't need more women in the game industry and we don't need more men either. Why must everything always come down to gender?
We need more people passionate about video games in the game industry, bottom line.

Everything in my post isn't about gender equality. Far from. When you look at most games, it usually goes to the base common denominator. Lara Croft sold five games in a short amount of time when all of them surely weren't up to par to the standards of that time. But a game such as Beyond Good & Evil is largely ignored. The main one that I can think of that is more of an anomaly is the Half Life series. A geeky Badass Scientist Hero and an Action girl (Alyx) who is an homage to a game largely ignored by gaming society.

Regarding war, I never said you can't have a female soldier and that it absolutely MUST have women in it. My personal preference is that it would be a nice little feature if you had females being medics or something to say, hey, they're in this universe.

But until men represent an overwhelming proportion in the game dev industry as well as a larger proportion of the video game market too, do not be suprised when women are depicted according to a male's ideal.
When the opposite occurs, do not be suprised to see men portrayed according to the female's ideal as well.

So, you're saying that women dominate the production field and yet the games aren't already ideal for men? Mostly, as more female gamers come into the field, the field will shift. That's just economics. From that, we'll have different ideas that come into the fore, and perhaps different perspectives to consider.

As for WNBA games, I don't think it would sell and that's probably why it is not being made.
Why?
Look at the size of the NBA audience.
Look at the size of the WNBA audience.
Which is the bigger market?
NBA.
So in the meeting rooms at EA they go like this:
"Hey guys, do you think we should make a NBA to please 95% of the people or WNBA game for the other 5%?"
Everyone goes. "NBA!"
And then they make a NBA game.

Won't know until someone has the "testicular fortitude" to try something new. Just because a game represents the WNBA doesn't necessarily mean it has to adhere to all of the rules of the NBA. Maybe a game similar to Run N Gun or even Big heads and Small bodies that would entice children and grant more exposure to the female side.

I mean, if I didn't know any better, it's almost like saying no one could market Street Ball because it's a niche sport itself.

The only problem is that Males will always play more games than women.

I don't know if that will stay accurate. Things could change as games become more sociable. It may be more accurate to say that women play more casual games (Sims, Bejeweled) rather than the hardcore FPS.

I have no idea what TF2 is. Everybody's doing that more and more; you have to understand that on this forum you'll encounter PC gamers, PS3 gamers, 360 gamers, Wii gamers and retro gamers.

I'm all for female protagonists. That's part of what made James Cameron's early work so interesting.

Team Fortress 2. It's on a free weekend. You should play. I'm aware of the gamers. I'm probably more of a retro gamer myself with a dash of PC.

Yes, I'd forgotten all about Sarah Connor. She made a true badass and a great lead character. Especially in T2.

Why are video games not called films then, since apparently for you, they are the same thing. However, you WATCH a movie and you PLAY a game. See where I'm going with this? No sir, they're not the same.

Games are taking a lot from the movie medium. And looking at some of those games in the beginning (Xenosaga, MGS1) they have a lot to learn about keeping interactivity with the player. This new emphasis on interactive cut scenes can be damned however. I HATE QTEs...

Because like I said, movies and video games are very different, and it is very naive to think that they can be treated identically, and both with a cinematographic approach

We can take them in different directions but they both are mediums to tell a story. That much is certain. TBH, I believe I'm having this same argument with someone else in another thread. Story and gameplay are both important, depending on the game you're playing. In an FPS, it isn't as important so long as you have a clear goal in mind. In an RPG, it's more important because of what's needed to get through the game.

"Since games sell (a lot) there must be something they're doing right with YOU the public."
By writing the sentence above, I meant to say that it is the public that decides which games are being made with the autorithy and power granted them by their purchases.

But what this also says is that no niche market can exist unless it has public approval. Ironically, if a niche market never improved, we wouldn't have all of the advancements we have in this century. Not everything is a mass market appeal. Look at Atlus games.

 

[ostro-whiskey]

Maybe it(')s because it(')s unrealistic( how many chicks are in the military(?) (E)quality is a new concept invented by liberal douchebags(.) (C)hicks are only used for sex appeal because of the known links between sex and violence.

The only game I ever played with a good female character was Silent Hill 3, because it was believable.

(Proofreading indicated by parenthesis.)

This is not the most informed viewpoint I've encountered. To answer you question, there are thousands of women in the military, and though the official policy is to avoid putting them in harm's way, they see combat every day. A medic is going to see combat, especially in a hornet's nest such as Iraq or Afghanistan. So no, it is not unrealistic, especially considering how many sci-fi and fantasy games are out there.

"Equality is a new concept invented by liberal douchebags." Welcome, stranger! I'd like to be the first to welcome you to the twenty-first century! You may not like it, as many of our women are not content to cook and clean and spread disease as prostitutes.

Please es-splain the "known links" between sex and violence. I don't recall the new Wii Rape game but I'm sure it'll be under many a family's Christmas tree this year.

And how was Silent Hill believable? Was it Pyramid Head?

Even if there are thousands of women in the military, which I severely doubt, compared to the hundreds of thousands of men, it certainly doesnt prove your point, since the majority is what matters, and it doesnt even come close to matching that of men.

Furthermore, Silent Hill 3 doesnt have pyramid head, and I didnt say the game was believable, I said the role of the female protagonist was.

As for the link between sex and violence, its common knowledge, im sure if you google it you will get all kinds of studies or viewpoints or such.

What you are doing is called self delusion, you are trying to base truth on your personal context, rather then factuality and realism.

 

[Deleted]

My only problem with women in video games is that they inevitably get Rule 34'd & forever change how I see them when playing the game.

Mind you, that is my only problem. And not a significant one at that.

I had a response to your post but then I looked at your avatar and I forgot what I was going to say.

 

[Sven und EIN HUND]

snoop

Fine points here, good sir; I agree with you on every point. There are a few exceptions however, like the metal gear solid series. Those female characters can kick some ass.

 

[BGH122]

Why must everything always come down to gender?

Yep, my feelings exactly. I don't understand why the media (and, indeed, the public) is so set in the belief that there's inherent differences in gender. Probably because of charlatans like John Gray (author of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"). Hyde et al 2005 University of Wisconsin's meta-analysis 'The Gender Similarity Hypothesis' looked at 46 critical gender difference studies from the past 20 years and found that there was "no statistically significant" gender personality differences in anything other than aggression, sexual promiscuity (and attitudes towards the acceptability of masturbation), and motor skills/complex mental visual shape rendering (mentally understanding and manipulating three sided shapes etc). All three of these points leaned towards men in a medium to large correlation (0.36-0.65 & 0.66-1.0 respectively). Hyde et al concluded that "variation between gender was insignificant when compared with variation within gender". So guess what? Yup, being a man won't make you emotionally insensitive and being a woman won't make you moral. It's your life and genetics that does that to you.

I wish the media would get over this failed gender differences crusade because it drives me mad. It's scientifically disproved and it's a self fulfilling prophecy: the samples within the meta analyses (men especially) were all found to behave more strongly in-line with their societal gender stereotype when they were aware they were under observation. We play up to what society sets as desirable. We need more Gordan Freemans and less Master Chiefs.

 

[TPiddy]

No, the product is developed for it's audience BY its developers. Somewhere somehow in the company a human being editor or not is taking a decision or does something that causes a character to look the way it looks in the end.
...and here I'll repeat again for those that don't.. ahem understand ...or argue for the sake of arguing...
"Since games sell (a lot) there must be something they're doing right with YOU the public."
By writing the sentence above, I meant to say that it is the public that decides which games are being made with the autorithy and power granted them by their purchases.
Essentially, I said that the product is developed for its audience.
To which you vehemently replied...
"NO. The product is always developed for it's audience."

As for what I meant with developers expressing their personal creativity, they can, even when executives are taking the important decisions. And the more influencial and talented an artist gets, the more freedom he or she has in creating. That's all I meant.

I think the point I was trying to get across was that it doesn't matter what gender the devs are, they will make what sells well or what they expect to sell well. They don't just make whatever they feel like, good or bad, because that doesn't sell... look at killer 7 (good) and x blades (bad) as examples of games that probably had a few too many design decisions made by the internal team without much regard to what the audience thinks.

 

[AWAR]

.. With 43% of females playing games [http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2009.pdf] and increasing per year,...

This includes playing games like hello kitty adventures and solitaire, I think the actual percentage of female gamers is no more than 10%..
and no, we dont need macho women characters in games they disgust me....

 

[Thaius]

True, there should be more actual female protagonists. No, it's not a big deal. And no, we shouldn't just throw a bunch of hardcore, emotionless girls with very little clothing to rectify this situation, which seems to be the most popular remedy at the moment. It doesn't work.

This really isn't as big of a deal as it is often made out to be. The only time we should base a story around the gender of the protagonist is if their status as a male or female affects the story in some way: otherwise, just put whoever works for the character in. I'm tired of seeing half-naked female characters in games just because people think they should be there and sex sells.

 

[Axeli]

We need more Gordan Freemans and less Master Chiefs.

Othwerwise a good post... But what?

 

[Sccye]

Dear OP,

You have restored my faith in some of the gaming community a little bit.

Thanks

 

[funguy2121]

Even if there are thousands of women in the military, which I severely doubt, compared to the hundreds of thousands of men, it certainly doesnt prove your point, since the majority is what matters, and it doesnt even come close to matching that of men.

Furthermore, Silent Hill 3 doesnt have pyramid head, and I didnt say the game was believable, I said the role of the female protagonist was.

As for the link between sex and violence, its common knowledge, im sure if you google it you will get all kinds of studies or viewpoints or such.

What you are doing is called self delusion, you are trying to base truth on your personal context, rather then factuality and realism.

Oh, how fun. You don't need evidence for your faith, do you brother? You also don't seem to recall your initial claim. Women fight in the United States military, and if only the majority mattered, then suffrage, the abolition of slavery, and minority and homosexual rights should be evils in your view. Your world is small.

You said Silent Hill was believable. Don't try to deny it, look back a few pages.

I would now like to posit the hypothesis that homosexual rhinosauruses will replace humans as the sentient species on the planet. Why? Because it's "common knowledge." You have to explain and qualify shit if you are to prove yourself a non-hack.

My "personal context" is better described as personal belief, and I have none which haven't survived the test of faith. In other words, I've questioned all of them and those that survived, remain. Can you say the same? "Factuality and realism" don't agree with you because you say so. I pity your first girlfriend.

 

[funguy2121]

Let's face it, the army that everyone loves to make games about (For the dim-witted: The United States Army and United States Marine Corps) doesn't allow women in combat roles. If you thus want to keep the game realistic, you have to keep women from not occupying those roles in the game.

But sure, let me indulge you with a few games where the protagonist is/can be a female soldier:
Mass Effect, Rainbow Six (from the first up to Raven Shield as you could choose which team members to bring along, then again in Vegas 2), No One Lives Forever (well, an operative but Kate Archer is hardcore) and Velvet Assassin(and once again, technically an operative).

As a woman, I am not all to concerned with the lack of female soldier protagonists. They have been around for a while and as women take more space on the gaming market, we can expect the number to rise.

I'm happy to keep women from not occupying these roles. Please research before edifying the whole forum, ol' sage-like one. Women see combat in Afghanistan and Iraq every day.

I'm also tired of hearing how we have to wait for more female losers to displace the male loser nerd game market: tell that to James Cameron, and Ellen Ripley, and Sarah Connor, and the entire female cast of BSG. Oh how I love Katie Sackhoff...

 

[funguy2121]

Why must everything always come down to gender?

Yep, my feelings exactly. I don't understand why the media (and, indeed, the public) is so set in the belief that there's inherent differences in gender. Probably because of charlatans like John Gray (author of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"). Hyde et al 2005 University of Wisconsin's meta-analysis 'The Gender Similarity Hypothesis' looked at 46 critical gender difference studies from the past 20 years and found that there was "no statistically significant" gender personality differences in anything other than aggression, sexual promiscuity (and attitudes towards the acceptability of masturbation), and motor skills/complex mental visual shape rendering (mentally understanding and manipulating three sided shapes etc). All three of these points leaned towards men in a medium to large correlation (0.36-0.65 & 0.66-1.0 respectively). Hyde et al concluded that "variation between gender was insignificant when compared with variation within gender". So guess what? Yup, being a man won't make you emotionally insensitive and being a woman won't make you moral. It's your life and genetics that does that to you.

I wish the media would get over this failed gender differences crusade because it drives me mad. It's scientifically disproved and it's a self fulfilling prophecy: the samples within the meta analyses (men especially) were all found to behave more strongly in-line with their societal gender stereotype when they were aware they were under observation. We play up to what society sets as desirable. We need more Gordan Freemans and less Master Chiefs.

I do so hope you enjoyed the tearin-of-a-new-one that Penn and Teller gave John Gray. Also: you are so wet.

I think though, friends, in spite of my barbs traded with small children and virgins on this thread, that the solution lies in dissolving gender expectations. Traditionalists, worry not! You don't have to court that butch that just got hired by your chauvinistic corporation - but she may prove a better asset than any gay friend you've got at getting you in on her inner feminine circle. Seriously though, Glenn, Ann, Sean, Fred, Bill, and Jerry... if there was a gender war, you lost it and logic won. Too bad so many people on this thread are unaware of POSTfeminism...

 

[ostro-whiskey]

Even if there are thousands of women in the military, which I severely doubt, compared to the hundreds of thousands of men, it certainly doesnt prove your point, since the majority is what matters, and it doesnt even come close to matching that of men.

Furthermore, Silent Hill 3 doesnt have pyramid head, and I didnt say the game was believable, I said the role of the female protagonist was.

As for the link between sex and violence, its common knowledge, im sure if you google it you will get all kinds of studies or viewpoints or such.

What you are doing is called self delusion, you are trying to base truth on your personal context, rather then factuality and realism.

Oh, how fun. You don't need evidence for your faith, do you brother? You also don't seem to recall your initial claim. Women fight in the United States military, and if only the majority mattered, then suffrage, the abolition of slavery, and minority and homosexual rights should be evils in your view. Your world is small.

You said Silent Hill was believable. Don't try to deny it, look back a few pages.

I would now like to posit the hypothesis that homosexual rhinosauruses will replace humans as the sentient species on the planet. Why? Because it's "common knowledge." You have to explain and qualify shit if you are to prove yourself a non-hack.

My "personal context" is better described as personal belief, and I have none which haven't survived the test of faith. In other words, I've questioned all of them and those that survived, remain. Can you say the same? "Factuality and realism" don't agree with you because you say so. I pity your first girlfriend.

I dont see a point of all this, the purpose of arguement is to convey one. All you do is try to twist my words around. I know what I mean when I say something, so stop trying to be a smart ass.

Also Im too lazy to go scouring the internet for essays written regarding things I say, especially for something so trivial as this. You can dissagree if you want, but dont try to claim it doesnt exist.

If you truly have questioned all your beleifs, why do you continue to hold foolish ones, perhaps you didnt question them correctly, or you simply did not see an alternative.

You obviously understand very little of human nature, and how people have progressed throughout the ages, you spout the usual liberal bullshit that everyone else does. Do you even know what independent thought is ?

Women cannot be realisticly placed as protagonists because they are more biologically valuable than men, as such, since the tribalist clans of humans began spreading, men have protected women. You think that because in the last few years some stupid politicians create equal rites that this undoes thousands of years of socio-cultural development and advancement ?

Like I said before, self delusion. Go read a book instead of regurgitating everything you are told.

 

[Spiner909]

Search bar kthx?

It's not that hard to understand. Sex sells.

 

[WorldCritic]

Representations of women in gaming are usually pretty sexist.

 

[Beartrucci]

Fable II - Hammer. Beast of a woman.

I'd tap that.

I wanted to post an image of her as well but could not find a decent one.

 

[Insanum]

You see, I dont think theres that much of a problem. Saying "you have to include women more in games" is, in my opinion, a backward step. When you start all that equality stuff, Things get frosty.

You've got to ask the question though, If guys are more likely to play games with main femal characters like Lara, Take a look at some of the guys in MW2, Surely thats the female equivalent?

My only problem with women in video games is that they inevitably get Rule 34'd & forever change how I see them when playing the game.

Mind you, that is my only problem. And not a significant one at that.

Raptor your new Avatar is really... 0.o Hypnotising.